Viewing 40 posts - 161 through 200 (of 260 total)
  • Violence against women – solutions?
  • p7eaven
    Free Member

    Isn’t it perfectly reasonable to hold that the promotion of all males as inherently (rather than potentially) sexually violent is unhelpful, while also understanding that male violence/harrassment/abuse against women is ongoing and too often unheard?

    And then the subject of toxic masculinity – which has been recently squashed. The denial of which seems to be a ‘sacred cow’ of the conservative mindset.

    csb
    Full Member

    I think some women would be uncomfortable with the idea of a woman president too.

    This observation in the context of women voting for Trump, reminded me of a conversation years ago with a female relative who was strongly opposed to women clergy because of some spurious reason like ‘women need leading by men’ or somesuch crap. Very weird.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    What we do is we listen, and we try to understand, and we do what is asked of us.

    And that ^^

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Compare it to say, the problem of litter.

    If you don’t drop litter, that’s good. You aren’t making it worse. But what we really need to do is actively make it better. Campaign against litter droping, pick up a few pieces when you’re out and about, call it out when we see it, and join or organise community litter picks. Simply not dropping it yourself whilst stepping over what’s already there is not enough.

    pondo
    Full Member

    This observation in the context of women voting for Trump, reminded me of a conversation years ago with a female relative who was strongly opposed to women clergy because of some spurious reason like ‘women need leading by men’ or somesuch crap. Very weird.

    Reminds me of Jordan Klepper interviewing a pro-Trump lady in 2016 – she was against Hilary because women are too emotional.”Too emotional?” He sez. “Yeah,” she says, “we get all hormonal and do all kinds of crazy things.” “What – like, start wars?” he sez. “Exactly!” she sez, “we’d start wars”.

    “Every war,” he says, “has been started by men.”

    stevextc
    Free Member

    I don’t think this is it. Men know that there are certain danger scenarios – heavy drinking, football matches etc – and then the rest of the time it’s fine. Very few men are a threat to me, and I can avoid the ones that are.

    Hardly or are you bullet proof? Are you really saying a kid with a gun is no danger to you?
    In so far as what I think you mean is your not worried about the odd kid without a knife but you wouldn’t walk through “that estate” after dark.

    But it’s different for women – they are frequently subjected to low grade abuse and unpleasant behaviour of varying degrees from actual physically present men, and it can escalate at any time. And this kind of behaviour is enabled and effectively condoned by a lot of media in subtle ways. And this is the real problem, not just the headline statistics.

    I’m missing how that is different … ? I’ve been plenty of places where “not from round here” is an open invitation. The difference is perhaps that when it does inevitably turn to violence you’re quite happy to dish it out.

    You can’t blame the media for inflating this. You’re a man, and you’re dismissing women’s concerns as being all in their heads, whilst being a man and never having experienced it. Despite what you may think, you ARE part of the problem here.

    I’m not saying it’s all in their heads I’m saying it’s not in the heads of others…
    Before I had a kid to look after I rarely gave it a thought … I didn’t go out and think “will I get hit by a car, will I get stabbed etc.” I just went out people who wanted to subject me to “low grade abuse and unpleasant behaviour” got a gob-full and if they wanted to take it further they got a different type of gob-full.

    When I was a kid walking home in uniform was an automatic trigger as I had to walk through other schools catchment areas … I doubt there were many days I got home without some verbal abuse (would that happen to girls ?) and it was always on the edge of spilling over. I got shot with airguns on more than one occasion .. that’s just life. No point worrying about it.

    Then as a bloke you start going to pubs … you get told which ones you shouldn’t go to unless you’re local… again you choose.

    Do you walk home through the no-go estate or do you go round? We all have to modify our behaviour and put up with low level abuse that is on the edge of escalating to violence. (unless you live on a private estate somewhere I suppose)

    I got stabbed a few times, concussion and a few broken ribs a few times but nothing serious … I could have died a few times but I didn’t worry about that, it’s not like I had someone to support but that doesn’t mean the threat wasn’t there any more than riding on the road.

    The nearest I came to dying was totally random and ironic walking through the no-go estate when I nearly got flattened by a fridge thrown out of a window of a tower block. This illustrates what I’m trying to say … I was fully aware walking through that estate at night was dangerous… the police wouldn’t even venture close without 2 vans of thick n stupid group… I got accosted a few times but nothing serious then I nearly died from a bloody fridge not even aimed at me.

    Despite this I don’t go out now and worry about fridges falling from the sky!
    However now I have responsibilities I do avoid walking through places “I shouldn’t” or answering back to the abuse if I do.

    In a fantasy world I could walk through the forbidden estate without fear or go in the dodgy pub but that’s not the reality or even (and this is pure fantasy) park a nice car in the estate and expect it to be there when I come back.

    FFS, how are we still not getting this..!?

    idiotdogbrain

    people are not scared because of the media – people are scared/cautious/fed up because of their actual direct experiences of being harassed, groped, intimidated, threatened, etc. by people.

    corrected for you

    Those of us who are not women, we DO NOT get to tell women how they feel about it. That’s part of the root of the problem – men assuming that they know better that the people who actually experience this behaviour. Just like white people don’t get to tell BAME people how they feel about racism.

    No the problem is exceptionalism…
    There is no such thing as a BAME person btw… and why on earth do the people you refer to as “White” (again a misnomer) not know about racism?

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    their actual direct experiences

    Very few women have had a stranger try to kill them. The fear is manifesting not experiential, it’s purely a matter of perception.

    pondo
    Full Member

    Very few women have had a stranger try to kill them. The fear is manifesting not experiential, it’s purely a matter of perception.

    The dismissiveness is borderline offensive, not sure if that’s planned? Comparatively few women may have had someone try to kill them (stranfer or not), but a vanishingly small number will not at some point in their lives have faced unwanted attention, that’s the point. Some of it merely crude, some plain nasty, and a sizeable chunk of it will be scary – that not many die from it is not a win, it’s not acceptable in the 21st century.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    @stevextc you are really not getting it at all.

    Violence against men comes from certain situations. You may think it’s normal to get into fights and have been stabbed a few times, but it really isn’t. And it’s not that hard to avoid as you say, you can avoid that estate or avoid that end of town on a Saturday night.

    But for women, violence, indimidation and abusive behaviour is everywhere. It could be at work, on a bus, in any social sitaution. We’re not talking about rape and murder, we’re talking about behaviour that puts women in fear.

    I don’t even know what your point is. Are you saying it’s fine and there’s nothing to worry about? Or are you saying that men have it just as bad? Because we really really don’t. You need to really listen instead of reaching for the ‘but what about meee?’ card. The fact that you are refusing to really listen and understand is in itself sexist.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    FFS, how are we still not getting this..!?

    Maybe condense your point into a sentence/shorter paragraph? I’ve read your post a few times and *think* that you are claiming that women don’t have any ‘exceptional’ issues with male violence/abuse* against them? But I wouldn’t wish to put words in your mouth, I’m just not convinced that I get the ‘point’ you’re trying to make.

    *It seems this thread has ‘violence’, and ‘abuse’ and ‘harassment’ and ‘sexual vs non-sexual’ all lumped together?

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Some tips on here that might be more useful to us. I can’t recall the last time I was walking around a city at night, but crashing about the woods on my bike is a regular occurrence.

    https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/reclaim_these_peaks_-_womens_safety_outdoors_is_everyones_problem-13439

    What can men do to help?
    Here are a few ideas for concrete action, from basic etiquette on the streets and trails, to helping nurture more positive attitudes in those around us:

    If you have children or work with young people, have conversations with them about the issues that are in the media. Talking to young people about equality, diversity and respect for each other from a young age is vital if attitudes and behaviours towards women are to change.
    Call out unacceptable behaviour. Don’t be a silent bystander if you witness a friend or colleague cat-calling or honking their car horn at women; this type of thing can be really intimidating, call it out.
    If you encounter a lone female give her a friendly hello or smile, take your hood down if you are wearing one, step aside and allow plenty of room on the path so you can easily get around each other.
    Try not to startle people by appearing suddenly from behind. I always try to alert people when I am a few metres away just to make whoever is in front aware that I’m about to overtake them, so I don’t give them a fright. If you’re a man out running, imagine how it’d feel to a lone woman to have you suddenly run up behind her, panting and sweating. A cheery hello from a distance might help.
    Please don’t make comments about what we are wearing to exercise in, it really isn’t anything to do with you no matter how harmless it might seem to you.
    If you see a woman alone in the hills, don’t try to stop her and give her your assistance unless she has asked for it. Would you do the same thing if you saw a man out on his own?
    If you are part of a large group of walkers or bikers, please think about how intimidating that can feel to a woman out on her own. Step to the side so that she doesn’t feel blocked in by having to run or walk through the middle of you all.
    Be an ally. If a female friend tells you she feels threatened by something or someone, try not to shrug it off as nothing. If something is happening which makes her feel this way then see what you can do to help.

    Dickyboy
    Full Member

    My 19yo step daughter gets a ridiculous amounts of unwanted attention and as a result barely goes outside unless she is with us or her boyfriend, that really isn’t the same as avoiding a particular bad estate or pub, ffs my earliest memory of sexual harassment was when my sister (about 14yo & skinny as a rake) got her bottom pinched in the Science Museum!

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    The dismissiveness is borderline offensive, not sure if that’s planned? Comparatively few women may have had someone try to kill them (stranfer or not), but a vanishingly small number will not at some point in their lives have faced unwanted attention, that’s the point. Some of it merely crude, some plain nasty, and a sizeable chunk of it will be scary – that not many die from it is not a win, it’s not acceptable in the 21st century.

    One of those things is not like the other, however.

    That’s like saying a fear of being killed by lighting is valid because you once got rained on.

    jag1
    Full Member

    Your correct low grade harassment and violent physical attacks are not the same but at which point should we switch from being pissed off to being genuinely frightened? And why should we have to accept being made uncomfortable and pissed off on a regular basis anyhow?
    From the perspective of a lot of women I haven’t been particularly bothered by sexual harassment:
    – I haven’t been flashed
    – I haven’t been groped in the workplace
    – I haven’t been sent pictures of genitals
    – I haven’t been attacked or raped
    – I have been cat called when I’m alone
    – I have sat at work and had told colleagues that what they have said is not appropriate
    – I have been propositioned by a taxi driver twice my age
    – I have been groped in bars and clubs
    – I have sat in a professional awards ceremony where the compare told a “joke” about a woman being raped and about 200 men laughed
    – I have had a boyfriend hold me round the neck and tell me he could kill me if he wanted to (I don’t think he meant it but he was very rapidly an ex)

    Where should the line be drawn? Or as several people on this thread have more helpfully said how can they help?
    How about start by tackling the low grade stuff and the rest may reduce. Speak to your children about how its not acceptable. Call out harassment where it is safe to do so – maybe have words with that acquaintance or colleague when they say something that could make a women feel unsafe or just uncomfortable.

    rainper
    Free Member

    Recently, in Oldham, a takeaway worker who pulled a woman to the ground and molested her was given a suspended sentence because he was the family breadwinner. This would’ve been rape had she not got away.

    Last week a man was arrested in connection with a a number of sexual assaults along the Bridgwater Canal in Trafford. I have no confidence that the justice system will give him more than a slap on the wrist. I’ve also seen people dismiss what happened as trivial, laughing because he ‘slapped/pinched their arses’.

    From the Liverpool Echo “A group of male students were allegedly caught taking photographs up the skirts of girls using the transparent glass staircase, in the centre of the sixth form canteen area, at Broughton Hall Catholic High School on Friday”.

    Sentences have to be tougher, and boys need educating that certain behaviours are not acceptable.

    There are difficult questions that need to had around the use of pornography. I know you all joke about ‘hedge porn’ but I’m sure most of you are aware of what is now considered ‘normal’ and how that leads to boys and young men thinking that spitting, slapping, choking and anal is what sex is all about.

    Everyone has a part to play and that means calling out your friends ‘jokes’ and behaviour, and maybe having discussions about porn with your kids that you really don’t want to have.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    And why should we have to accept being made uncomfortable and pissed off on a regular basis anyhow?

    That really is the point.

    Been interesting popping back into this thread. A lot of great comments and insights and suggestions. And a minority who just don’t seem to get it.

    pondo
    Full Member

    One of those things is not like the other, however.

    That’s like saying a fear of being killed by lighting is valid because you once got rained on.

    I can look at a weather forecast and wear a waterproof if rain is likely. To continue the shit analogy, women have no way of knowing whether it’s likely to “rain” harassment, how heavy the rain will be, they’re more likely to be struck by “lightning”, which is most likely to strike them in their own home.

    So yeah – can we men stop telling women what they should and shouldn’t be concerned by and start listening to them instead? Do you not read posts like those above and become outraged at the fear half the population has to live with on a daily basis? I do – outraged and incredibly sad.

    rainper
    Free Member

    I am a ‘leftie, Guardian reader’ but have learned you cannot dismiss stories because you don’t like certain newspapers or websites. I’m quite happy to share this link to Daily Mail. I think STW bans direct links to the Daily Mail but this article includes stories by six teenage girls. If you aren’t prepared to read them because of where there are published then you are part of the problem.

    This is an honest look at the frequent and commonplace sexual harassment and assault girls are subjected to by their male peers today. Boys get away with this and they grow into men who also get away with it.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9373179/The-toxic-truth-teenage-girl-today.html?fbclid=IwAR1Sww8rmOq2BFMiN2w8wZMhpp8PiPpBglKQ-fImsJ9zJK3fbX7WGe20BPo

    rainper
    Free Member

    https://outdoorsmagic.com/article/how-can-women-feel-safer-in-bothies/

    Good article that, thanks for sharing

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Seemed both topical and relevant to this audience.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    This shocked me when I saw it – 1 in 40 young women experience sexual assault in a year

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56444275

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    So yeah – can we men stop telling women what they should and shouldn’t be concerned by and start listening to them instead?

    Women aren’t a collective entity. Some of the voices critical of this moment are indeed other women.

    Fear isn’t a policy. It’s one thing to listen to someone, another to use emotion as a basis for decisions that should be based upon reason. Some of our worst laws have been made quickly in the face of public hysteria.

    pondo
    Full Member

    Women aren’t a collective entity. Some of the voices critical of this moment are indeed other women.

    Fear isn’t a policy. It’s one thing to listen to someone, another to use emotion as a basis for decisions that should be based upon reason. Some of our worst laws have been made quickly in the face of public hysteria.

    Hey – all I’m saying is use your ears more and your mouth less.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    My daughter pointed out that we are 77 days into the year and so far 118 women and girls have been killed.

    We have a problem and it doesn’t appear to be going away.

    Guidance by CPS has effectively legalised rape by making the conviction rate is ludicrously small and the legal system has condoned this decision.

    Looks like we chaps may well have to resort to the Falls Road method of rapist control to protect our female family members. (It involves bolt croppers for the more sheltered among us).

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    My daughter pointed out that we are 77 days into the year and so far 118 women and girls have been killed.

    Wow. The figure for the whole of the year ending Mar 2020 was 188. Has the number of homicides of men and boys also gone up by as much (it was 506 in that same year). I wonder if lockdown etc has had anything to do with it.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    I can’t find that stat with a quick google – any pointers?

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Women’s Aid is the pointer I’m being directed towards, it refers to the list Jess Philips read out and was incorrectly reported to me. It’s still a poor reflection on female safety from domestic abuse.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Some confusion on numbers, but doesn’t alter the fact that they are still way too high.

    rainper
    Free Member

    way too high, and increasing, it’s now one woman every 3 days

    this shows a breakdown from a previous year
    https://www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/femicide-census-reveals-half-of-uk-women-killed-by-men-die-at-hands-of-partner-or-ex/

    i_scoff_cake
    Free Member

    My daughter pointed out that we are 77 days into the year and so far 118 women and girls have been killed.

    We have a problem and it doesn’t appear to be going away.

    Are the lives of women and girls worth more than men and boys? That’s the implication by drawing attention to the deaths of females only.

    pondo
    Full Member

    That’s the implication by drawing attention to the deaths of females only.

    Only by the terminally argumentative. It’s “all lives matter” all over again.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Are the lives of women and girls worth more than men and boys? That’s the implication by drawing attention to the deaths of females only.

    Of course all deaths are tragic, we know this (and it’s absurd to imply otherwise tbh), but you’re missing the point. These are different problems with different contexts. I get what you’re saying, but there’s more too it than just the stats.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Your correct low grade harassment and violent physical attacks are not the same but at which point should we switch from being pissed off to being genuinely frightened?

    Good question and no simple answer … Perhaps just being alert is better.
    To extend on
    i_scoff_cake

    That’s like saying a fear of being killed by lighting is valid because you once got rained on.

    It’s more like being scared of being hit by lightning in a storm then being hit by a falling tree.
    [a far more real danger].

    And why should we have to accept being made uncomfortable and pissed off on a regular basis anyhow?

    That’s just life … it’s not gender specific.
    I was pissed off people trying to steal stuff off my drive right in front of my nose.

    Should I have to ? Ultimately the easiest thing was just to sell the scrap under value. ultimately it wasn’t worth the hassle.

    Where should the line be drawn? Or as several people on this thread have more helpfully said how can they help?

    I already do … but the biggest “help” is explaining why the real risk is far less than the media like to make out.

    for example: rainper gives some examples … so “recently in 67.61M people some shit happened”

    According to Gov.uk

    There were 27,820 killed or seriously injured casualties (KSIs) in reported road traffic accidents reported to the police, for the year ending June 2019.

    To put that in context, that’s 76 a DAY … but I don’t see 76 national media stories every day.

    How about start by tackling the low grade stuff and the rest may reduce.

    So what do you think should be the sentence for a taxi driver double your age propositioning you? But more seriously the low grade stuff is unlikely to change the actual violence for a woman.
    The dicks who cat call etc. are far more likely to get violent with a bloke who calls them out.

    Speak to your children about how its not acceptable. Call out harassment where it is safe to do so – maybe have words with that acquaintance or colleague when they say something that could make a women feel unsafe or just uncomfortable.

    Molgrips

    But for women, violence, indimidation and abusive behaviour is everywhere. It could be at work, on a bus, in any social sitaution. We’re not talking about rape and murder, we’re talking about behaviour that puts women in fear.

    I don’t even know what your point is. Are you saying it’s fine and there’s nothing to worry about? Or are you saying that men have it just as bad? Because we really really don’t. You need to really listen instead of reaching for the ‘but what about meee?’ card. The fact that you are refusing to really listen and understand is in itself sexist.

    But the point is they don’t need to be put in fear … just annoyed.

    Are you saying it’s fine and there’s nothing to worry about?

    No, I’m saying the chance of anything “serious” is very small. As P7eaven points out this thread is conflating violence with feeling uncomfortable/annoyed.

    People are dicks, Rule #1 is all well and good but still people are dicks and many rely on intimidation or making people uncomfortable to get what they want. [that includes saying things like you don’t get to comment on racism because you’re white]

    The same sort of thing happens every day …
    I had someone pull out in front of me at the local supermarket earlier with the full knowledge they were pulling out in front .. they are simply relying on intimidation and I won’t just ram them or get out and beat the shit out of the bloke. It’s “yeah I’m being a dick but what are you going to do about it”

    The builders behind are chucking stuff over our fence and dropping stuff on the shed roof but unless I just accept this there is nothing I can do that won’t end up with me in court. It’s “yeah I’m being a dick but what are you going to do about it”

    This happens all the time because a small bunch of dicks know the rest of us don’t want a criminal record or are adverse to violence.

    To get STW there was the video of the shop owner refusing to let a thief take the bike but the blokes had to just stand around.
    Excuse the link
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-2035356/Video-Female-pensioner-wrestles-alleged-bike-thief-Barnsley-store.html

    As a bloke you can’t be seen/filmed to touch the guy for “allegedly” trying to steal a bike… he knows this not to mention he will have no problem saying any of the men who do get involved are racially motivated (this is not a reflection on his race, all races have dicks)

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Some confusion on numbers, but doesn’t alter the fact that they are still way too high.

    So are 76 traffic fatalities and serious injuries a DAY..

    Only by the terminally argumentative. It’s “all lives matter” all over again.

    Except the way bigger number is the number of boys and young men.
    A closer parallel is saying BLM but NOT asian…

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Of course all deaths are tragic, we know this (and it’s absurd to imply otherwise tbh), but you’re missing the point. These are different problems with different contexts. I get what you’re saying, but there’s more too it than just the stats.

    You keep saying we are missing the point .. have you considered you are missing the point and the “more to it” is actually “the media”.
    Another shocking number is female suicides in girls .. the overwhelming majority being due to bullying by other girls …

    rainper
    Free Member

    There’s another thread where the gist seems to be ‘where have all the women gone on stw?’.

    For the record, some of the comments on this thread are unlikely to make women feel welcome on this website.

    p7eaven
    Free Member

    As P7eaven points out this thread is conflating violence with feeling uncomfortable/annoyed.

    No.

    ‘violence’, and ‘abuse’ and ‘harassment’

    Is what I wrote. Nothing about feeling uncomfortable/annoyed’, not sure where you got that from my post.

    I mentioned abuse and harrassment for clarification/the purpose of the thread, ie the title is a little misleading so the subject has widened. Inevitable, it’s a spectrum of behaviours after all. And the discussion has widened. It’s interesting to view what some consider ‘annoying’, others may lose sleep, or lose/move job/home.

    If you believe that in all cases/for all genders that abuse is simply ‘annoying’ and/or discomfiting then that’s possibly ‘OK’ for you, but maybe not so OK for others. Reading your posts in this thread it’s almost like you’ve ‘normalised’ (in your mind) both violent and abusive behaviours simply because you view them as ‘normal’ even though you also seem to say you are ‘adverse’ to violence?

    I had someone pull out in front of me at the local supermarket earlier with the full knowledge they were pulling out in front .. they are simply relying on intimidation and I won’t just ram them or get out and beat the shit out of the bloke. It’s “yeah I’m being a dick but what are you going to do about it”

    The builders behind are chucking stuff over our fence and dropping stuff on the shed roof but unless I just accept this there is nothing I can do that won’t end up with me in court. It’s “yeah I’m being a dick but what are you going to do about it”

    This happens all the time because a small bunch of dicks know the rest of us don’t want a criminal record or are adverse to violence.

    Case in point. I’ve rarely wanted to ‘beat the shit’ out of someone for pulling out on me. Someone wrecked (dented passenger door, insurance write off) my old favourite car by doing just that. Claimed they hadn’t seen me. Should they expect me to (or should I want to?) ‘beat the shit out of them’? Do you want to beat the shit out of all kinds of people or just blokes? Do you expect blokes to beat the shit out of you? For pulling in front of them at a supermarket? For looking at their beer funny?

    pondo
    Full Member

    Some numbers for the “it’s just how it is” folks – since the government started a rape review two years ago, 1.4 million people have been sexually assaulted in this country. 98.5% of reported rapes go without charge or conviction.

    Ain’t good enough.

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