Tree planting 'threatening' Scotland's grand vistas

I like the open aspect of our hills and mountains but the planned increase of tree cover shouldn’t affect that much. A big sky is worth preserving too.

The big estates give plenty bullshit about the “jobs” they create, but the land they occupy used to support far more humans than they do now. If we are to reintroduce any predators, let it be humans and restore the common right to live off the land, ie deer for the pot, a fish from the stream.

If you look at the evidence of human habitation on the high ground, it’s amazing how many people used to live up there. Unfortunately early forestry practices ploughed much of the evidence of that into the ground.

For example if you wander up Ben Wvyis, at around the 800 foot mark off to the left of the path are 2 sets of remains of slag from metal working. That suggests a thriving community in the vicinity – you don’t randomly wander up a mountain and think, Och, let’s start smelting some metal. To do that they would have a need for plenty fuel, and that means trees.

teamhurtmore – Member
Joe, seems like a good idea to reverse the damage caused by humans over many centuries. The current state and more worryingly the state 100 years ago is unnatural. The strategic is now to reverse this.

I’d say this thread has gone some way to eliminating my cynicism displayed in the OP. Got more confidence in it now tbh. 🙂

Cheers for that link.

but the land they occupy used to support far more humans than they do now

Yes, agricultural practices have changed a bit over the last century though, What was once a labour intensive industry that could support thousands of shepherds and crofters at a subsistence level simply can’t offer a similar level of employment nowadays. Much the same with eg. Lead mining.

crosshair – Member
Sadly- they belong to whoever’s land they are on. Which pleases me no end when I see £40,000 worth over the boundary on next doors fields some mornings

interesting! 😆

saying that, there’s more chance of them creeping up on me, they make some racket when they decide to flutter their wings into flight, normally when you least expect it!

crosshair – there is a big difference between losing some subsidy and having your license revoked or facing criminal action

Cheers for that link.

Pleasure – the thread was getting derailed* and probably time to get back to the real facts behind the story. Hope you are happy with the tree choices and what looks like a semblance of a joined up strategy.

* surprised that Purdey and Holland ^2 haven’t come up so far!!!

Not when that subsidy is worth more than the entire income from the farm…..

You already can lose your shotgun and firearms certification for being a convicted criminal as well as some hefty fines.
Licensing shoots seems to me to be about control and jealousy- the true source of most anti-shooting rhetoric I think.

v good points crosshair

crosshair – I assure you that is not anything to do with the reasons.

Its landscape damage and raptor persecution plus those for whom its a moral issue

The thing about the raptor killings is that raptors are a big driver of tourism – so by killing raptors you actually damage the rural economy. Wildlife tourism is huge now in Scotland. Grouse moor owners routinly kill dozens if not hundreds a year including sea eagles and Goldens.

the pair of Golden eagles I watched on the monadliath several times over a camping weekend were killed last year by the landowner

Absolute overblown nonsense. If there was a market for tourism led Raptor watching, do you not think landowners would have already exploited it for those years when the Grouse numbers are low?

Almost every case you delve into gets foggier and foggier and getting reliable, unbiased data is harder and harder. Yes, there are undoubtedly Raptors shot illegally by gamekeepers but the problem is nowhere near what the media hype likes to suggest.

Hen Harriers are ground nesting birds. One of the reasons they don’t do well in the UK even where there is no grouse shooting (aka Wales) is because they are hugely vulnerable to predation by foxes, badgers and other birds of prey.
You think the burgeoning population of Buzzards and Red Kites ignore these fluffy grey easy meals?
My wife saw a Red Kite with two Tawny owl fledgelings last year!

As for Eagles, I went stalking Red Hinds near Loch Ness a few years ago. The stalker’s house was in a stunning spot. He said he had built it there because it overlooked the traditional Golden Eagles nest site on the opposite Glen.
The neighbouring estate was sold and the RSPB bought half of it. They erected a hide near the nest that spring and the Eagles have never returned!

Illegal persecution is bad and indefensible but to attribute some arbitrary defecit in an entire species to it is naive and misleading.

Utter bullshine – raptor persecution by grouse moor owners is well known and documented and is by far the single largest cause of death. Dozens if not hundreds a year all on grouse moors in Scotland.

This is well researched and proven but hard to get prosecutions for under the old laws hence the changes to the law.

“The RSPB maintains a database of reported incidents which are classified under the headings ‘Unconfirmed’, ‘Probable’ and ‘Confirmed’. According to their most recent data (RSPB 2012), the number of confirmed victims of poison abuse in Scotland from 1989-2011 is 932. This figure includes 75 red kites, 29 golden eagles and 364 buzzards. The number of confirmed victims of shooting, trapping or nest destruction in Scotland from 1989-2011 is 334. This includes 7 red kites, 17 golden eagles, 145 buzzards, 63 peregrines, 51 hen harriers, 13 goshawks, 16 sparrowhawks and 28 kestrels. It’s a widely held view that these confirmed incidents represent just the tip of a large iceberg; a view supported by the findings of a recent study that compared unpublished ‘vermin’ destruction records from one estate in Perthshire with known persecution incidents throughout Scotland as recorded by the authorities. The results showed that over a period of years, the number of raptors illegally killed on just one estate far exceeded the number of ‘official’ incidents recorded across the whole of Scotland (McMillan 2011)”

so in 22 years well over a thousand confirmed cases of raptors being killed illegally 50 year. As significant % of the population of Goldens FFS

Until those of you who support shooting get your house in order then you will continue to face oppositiuon.

http://www.cieem.net/data/files/Resource_Library/Conferences/2016_Scottish_Conference/Ian_Thomson_SCOT27012016.pdf

I don’t really want to get sidetracked down an unproductive conversation, only to point out that

number of confirmed victims of poison abuse

Includes, for example, birds that appear to have died where the ingestion of legal rodenticides is indicated as playing a part, that Gould include birds that had consumed rats and mice that had eaten poisons, rather than being truly indicative of deliberate raptor poisoning.

shooting, trapping or nest destruction

Ah, “nest destruction” – yes, whatever the cause or perpetrator, generally not known, but you can of course assume it’s gamekepers, even on non game estates, because badgers and foxes are presumed to never do anything like this.

Equally Ninfan we know that this is only a small part – the confirmed killings.

One step those of you that support shooting need to do is to accept this level of illegal activity is real and help the conservationists stamp it out. Not spreading myths and lies in a vain attempt to minimise it.

Hopefully the vicarious liability prosecution ( a really somewhat dubious piece of law really) will help and hopefully Holyrood will go for licensing so we can get rid of the landowners that kill rap-tors – because not all do

Crosshair – ask the residents of Mull how much the Sea eagles are worth to the local economy

So how are all the native species of birds of prey doing in terms of population trends?
( Against a general backdrop of decline in most other species of birds thanks to habitat loss and modern farming techniques?)

Irrelevant – they are a recovering population following the end of DDT use and against a background of persecution. there are huge tracts of land suitable for raptors without any. Habitat loss is not an issue.

the answer is about 60% of what they would be given no persecution

I don’t really want to get sidetracked down an unproductive conversation

actual lol

So shooting is thriving, persecution is decreasing, BoP populations are rising? Sounds like a win win win to me- unless you have other agendas….

So how are the Hen Harriers doing in upland Wales with all that beautiful unshot Moorland??

Persecution is not decreasing. Raptor poulations are still struggling and persecution is causing real issues. thousands of raptors killed by gamekeepers over the last 20 years

Crosshair – you are a sensible seeming chap and most of the discussion has been good natured but you and others in the shooting industry who have a decent hearts should be helping the conservationists deal with the rogues who kill raptors not pretending it doesn’t happen and spreading fatuous false information

I have no other agenda than conservation as you can see about my comments about other forms of blood sports. I have been involved in raptor conservatiuonm on and off for 40 years – not from a class war / Hunt sab type direction but from a conservation and tourism direction.

On one hand:

they are a recovering population

But then again:

Raptor poulations are still struggling

So which is it?

I’m certainly not denying it takes place and certainly not defending it- my heart sinks when another suspected case hits the news. I’m just questioning the extent of the impact relative to the overblown reactions.

The reactions are not overblown! Its a far more significant problem than the landowners will admit. dozens if not hundreds of the large birds of prey every year. Eagles, Ernes, Kites, Dunno where you are but in Scotland there is real anger over this and huge pressure for legislative change. Unless the responsible landowners help with the conservationists you risk all losing your shooting rights. You need to shun the killers not protect them as the landowner groups do.

One landowner in Scotland successfully prosecuted for raptor killings is still in the major organisation that represents them and is still receiving public money for his “conservation” Theses are the folk responsible landowners should be shunning

Squirrelking. Both. The populations of these birds is recovering but struggling to do so due to the killings

Unless the responsible landowners help with the conservationists you risk all losing your shooting rights. You need to shun the killers not protect them as the landowner groups do.

Ah, collective punishment now is it?

Just imagine if Donald suggested treating people like this based upon the actions of a minority…

Ninfan – its the pressure for legislation. Its not collective punishment. However the longer this goes on the harder it will be for folk to defend it and the greater the pressure for legislation. so shun the rogues throw them out of your oganisations or risk all being tarred with the same brush and hit by the same legislation

“Golden eagles also continue to be absent in many parts of the eastern Highlands. Less than one third of the traditional ‘home ranges’ in this area were occupied by a pair of eagles and no eagles were recorded at all in over 30% of them, despite the fact that these should be very productive landscapes for these birds. Many of the vacant territories in this area are on ground managed intensively for driven grouse shooting and in recent years, four eagles fitted with satellite tags have been found illegally killed in the central and eastern Highlands”

So the extent of this illegal persecution is far worse than the figures suggest?
The implication being that thousands extra are actually being killed per annum.
Yet still the populations rise! So do these also need to be added on to the population estimates too then?

I also question the accuracy of the statistics. Badgers are huge, live in easily discovered setts and are easy to watch with NV equipment. Yet look how badly they underestimated their populations for the cull!

Same stalker I mentioned earlier. Remarked that they had two successful broods of hen harriers that year. When I replied that the rspb next door must be pleased, his un-printable reply was that the last thing they would do is tell them as the place would be inundated with people.

The whole thing definitely falls into the heading ‘post-fact politics!’

And until shooting is banned, 20yrs elapses and people realise that without the grouse and the predator control- you don’t get the Harriers back anyway nobody is going to talk any sense on this issue.

crosshair – the proven cases are only the tip of the iceberg but its a serious and significant problem and pressure for legislation is rising.

sorry dude but you either do not want to hear or refuse to believe the extent. An eagle in Scotland has a 30% chance of being killed by gamekeepers. Get your house in order before the body politic does it for you

So you propose yet more legislation? It won’t be long before every sodding aspect of our lives is legislated for and against.

The fact is, existing legislation just needs to be enforced rather than adding to it.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC

Round here they want to plant a commercial forest behind the town, where literally nobody goes. There is no easy access, you can’t see it from most places and no existing tourism. You would think someone was proposing a baby shredding plant by the way the locals have reacted, claiming forestry isn’t natural (??), that it would ruin the walking tourism (what walking tourism?) and then the usual “community benefit” money grabbing. At the rate they’re going we’ll end up with nothing. Some people just refuse to listen, that’s what you’re up against.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC

When has arguing down (or trying to) people who have greater topic knowledge been off-topic 😉

Par for the course really, why have a productive debate when you can debate bullshit and pedantry?

Theoretically. But what if it enforcing the existing legislation is too difficult to enforce and therefore doesn’t result in sufficient deterrent? In that case it doesn’t seem unreasonable to look at alternative legislation which might be more effective at solving the problem.

I don’t believe that statistic. Either that it’s solely gamekeepers killing Golden Eagles in the interest of preserving game or that the few FARMERS and gamekeepers that are undeniably responsible for some illegal killings kill close to 1 in 3 of the population.

Both the SGA and NGO have 0 tolerance towards illegal activities- the wider gamekeeping community is not implicit.

Brood management is a viable solution to the Hen Harrier dichotomy- pity the RSPB have walked away from it….

http://www.gwct.org.uk/wildlife/research/birds/raptors/hen-harrier/joint-recovery-plan/

Indeed aracer – hence the drive for licensing of shoots and the recent change in the law in Scotland to allow vicarious liability – first prosecution underway

crosshair – you need to look at why the RSPB walked away Its not 1/3 of the population each year – its that each individual bird has a 30% chance of getting killed by a gamekeeper over its lifetime ( 20 + years for eagles).
http://www.rspb.org.uk/community/ourwork/b/martinharper/archive/2016/07/25/withdrawal-from-the-hhap.aspx

Ah, “nest destruction” – yes, whatever the cause or perpetrator, generally not known, but you can of course assume it’s gamekepers, even on non game estates, because badgers and foxes are presumed to never do anything like this.

Only to ground-nesting birds, I doubt that badgers and foxes can climb a thirty-foot pine, or scale a vertical cliff-face to get at the nests of eagles, buzzards and kites, and peregrines.

You think the burgeoning population of Buzzards and Red Kites ignore these fluffy grey easy meals?
My wife saw a Red Kite with two Tawny owl fledgelings last year!

How did a kite, with a nearly seven-foot wingspan, get at a tree-nesting owl’s young? Kites are scavengers, like buzzards, the only way a kite could get at tawny fledglings is if they’d ended up on the ground, in the open, at which they become fair game(!) for any predator, a cat, fox, or badger is much more likely, possibly even another owl!
Hell, seagulls will take other birds, Springwatch filmed avocet nests stripped of their contents by gulls, and by a badger that swam across a stretch of water to get at them.

@Countzero- yes because Birds of Prey all live in mutual harmony 😀

@Countzero- it was a nest in an Ivy clad dead oak tree- I went and found it later as I was curious too!
There was no sign of feathers on the floor and one was still alive when they were dropped.

Basically- a bird of prey is like a fish. It will shovel in any flesh, living or dead that it can fit in its beak- regardless of species.
I’ve seen (and I truly wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it) a Kestrel scavenge and eat a roadkill Collared Dove!!!

nature red in tooth and claw crosshair. I am under no illusions about this at all. I understand meat is animals, I understand nature is often violent and nasty.

did you read why the RSPB walked away?

Yes- it wasn’t conducive to their fund-raising appeals 😀

😉

Crosshair – one minute I think you are a decent chap who wants to debate with folk with differing viewpoints then you come out with tosh like that. they walked away because the shooting side did not uphold their end and continued to kill hen harriers.