TrainerRoad – STW approved sessions

Back on the sweet spot base mid vol. started last tues quite pleased to see my ftp not massively different to last year despite much less training. Mount field today, enjoy that workout, easy to complete but leaves the legs feeling like they’ve done something,

Bryce Lewis – I use elite volate mag force elastomer gel with virtual power (level 4) – I’m sure the power curve is way way off, it’s giving me an ftp of 332, ftp/kg of 5.56. As I’m a mid pack racer that can’t be even remotely close. Any ideas?

Wow! I bet you hope it isn’t wrong

Four weeks into SSB high volume here, I was worried I couldn’t cope with that amount of training stress but hanging in there so far. I’m hoping it’s not because I didn’t push hard enough in my first FTP test

@Brycelewis- thanks! I think you are spot on- a good argument for having the hr data out of sight perhaps.

@Ferrals- Whatever is wrong (if indeed it is) I’d leave it until SSB2, otherwise you’ll need to retest your ftp 😆

I did my workout outdoors today and regretted it. Stupid traffic lights, cars, traffic calming and junctions made 3×12 @ Threshold pretty tough to fit in. Got close enough albeit with slightly longer recovery’s.

I’m weighing up my options for Build at the moment. I got great results with Sustained Power Build last time but tempted by short power this time. If nothing else, it will illustrate the difference to me personally.
I may have a long hard look at my limiters nearer the time…

@jonnyboi- crumbs! Big respect here for that. Mid volume is definitely the tops for me and most weeks I’m eyeing up the ‘Skip’ button on Petit or whichever Wednesday Z2 is scheduled 😆

Biggest problem is finding clean bib shorts every day 😉

I did my workout outdoors today and regretted it. Stupid traffic lights, cars, traffic calming and junctions made 3×12 @ Threshold pretty tough to fit in. Got close enough albeit with slightly longer recovery’s.

Was some good work there CH. I reckon hitting an interval target outdoors is tougher than indoors as you’re constantly going over and under with changes of gradient, wind, traffic, etc. Having to cope with a range of cadence and all the little accelerations and decelerations. Although conversely some people seem to find it easier.

Biggest problem is finding clean bib shorts every day

Try doing it outdoors. Bib shorts, longs or warmers over the top, base layer, jersey, gilet, socks, cap, gloves, overshoes… every day! And then there’s the bike… 😕

I guess for outright training stress- a +/- 20w ERG session would be better. I’d have got my 36mins of Threshold and not an ounce more fatigue than needed.

Whereas 240 and 470 are not what I was intending to see during the work efforts despite my average being pretty much within 5watts at the end.

Arguable either way I suppose. Indoors more mentally taxing but ‘better’ stress Vs ripping along outdoors being more realistic and FUN but also less efficient.

Indoors ticks more boxes for me most of the time but I have to keep my eye in 😉

Yes, likely it’s a balance. Done winters with way too much turbo in the past (due to small kids, job) thinking I’m going well, good numbers etc. Then go ride outdoors and really struggle to get near those numbers due to all the variation. Though everyone seems to cope with this differently. For me outdoors is “better” stress as I’m training with all the variation that I need to be able to cope with, more specificity I suppose. But then it’s not so easy outdoors to safely do those sessions where you finish lying on the floor in a pool of your own sweat and drool 🙂

Yes- I wouldn’t fancy much more duration or intensity than today down the A4- let alone a TT hey? 😆

Despite the fact I can feel the riding position is a little different, I don’t seem to have a problem transferring my indoor numbers outside. Or the other way around really. (That’s with the same PM)

My hunch is that I actually perform slightly better indoors but the greater motivation of racing or being outdoors helps me hit the same numbers.

The SNAP must be a good match inertia wise for the flat riding i’m targeting- although in ERG mode, I’m not sure the differences are as pronounced anyhow.

Have any if you guys tried the new TR ramp test for FTP? I had a go – first calculation put my FTP quite a lot higher than I believed. They then tweaked the algorithm which out it bang on!

No- looks interesting though! What percentage of FTP did you reach Gray?

Erm, about 133%. Word is that they’re doing the calculation based on best 1 minute and best 5 minute power in the test, but I don’t really get how that can be much different from being simply based on how high you get. Assuming the test is properly executed, anyway.

I got a Neo yesterday BTW. My Vortex was getting too annoying. So far I like it.

Wow! I bet you hope it isn’t wrong

Haha no I hope it is wrong because otherwise my belief I’m a pretty good cx bike handler is way way out 😆

I’ve mentioned it here before and I know that as it’s just virtual power it’s just arbitrary numbers and so long as they are consistent from a training point of view it’s fine, however it would be nice to have a better idea of real ftp for willy waving purposes 😆

I half wondered if it was my turbo being a bit damaged or something but when googling I saw a different post from a few years ago who had the same issue (think they said they could consistently spin at 500w for ages according to virtual power 😯 ) and reckoned the power curve for the trainer was wrong. They ended up using a different trainer curve which they felt was more realistic. Hopefully Bryce can chip in, otherwise I’ll email their support when I get a chance.

Have any if you guys tried the new TR ramp test for FTP? I had a go – first calculation put my FTP quite a lot higher than I believed. They then tweaked the algorithm which out it bang on!

.

Interesting, although I’m loathe to move away from a 20min test as at least I get a consistent reference point

Hey @ferrals!

Regarding the power curve for your trainer, with Mag trainers especially the curves can be shifted quite significantly in the production models of the trainer. The magnetic actuator can also wear, producing less resistance than it did when it came out of the factory. It sounds like you already have an understanding of VirtualPower consistency and how it doesn’t really matter what the numbers are as long as they are the same from ride to ride.

The not-so-great news is that we don’t have a better way to estimate your power. Without using a power meter on your own trainer, we have no way to map your specific level of wear and tear/ factory resistance discrepancy. Therefore, the best we can do is choose a different power curve that seems more reasonable. Since you are using the Level 4 resistance level on the trainer, selecting the Level 3 resistance level in the VP settings will ultimately lower your power readout to a more reasonable wattage.

If this is something that you are interested in trying, do the following:
1. Test out the Level 3 curve to see if the numbers are closer to what you would expect. Also, try out the Level 2 curve.
2. Once you find the curve that most closely resembles the power you expect you’re putting out, go ahead and reach out to support@trainerroad.com and ask them to reprocess your ride with the new power curve.
3. This will allow you to change your FTP to fit the new power curve without having to re-test.

Cheers!

Regarding the new ramp test @gray, the first iteration also overestimated my FTP and was bang-on with the new formula. I’m really happy to hear that we are working in the right direction for you as well 🙂

We are working on tweaking variables, and we really appreciate everyone who has tested and given us feedback.

Cheers!

Nice one, thanks Bryce!

PSA: I have a free month trial of trainer road available. Would best suit someone who rides turbo regularly, has a power meter, and is interested in a structured training programme,

so please don’t ask for it on a whim if you’re not going to use it. Cheers

Did Huffaker 45 last night – failed to hit the 4th and 5th interval targets but managed the 6th. Grim. My first VO2 max type session for a while though so I might repeat it in a few days to compare.

Just thought I’d poke my head in here and ask a quick question…

Ive just signed up to Trainerroad to take advantage of their structured training plans. I started following a plan back at the beginning of October (outside of TR) which gave me a solid 3 months of base training. I’ve been training about 12 hours a week since then with an adaptation week every 4th week. This is my first season following a proper training plan.

I’ve just picked up and started the High Volume Short Power Build plan and I’m a couple of weeks into it. So far so good. It’s an 8 week plan and I’ve got a week in Gran Canaria to look forward to at the end of that. I’ll get as much quality training in whilst I’m over there and plan to get stuck into the Short Track XC Speciality plan when I return. First race of the XC season is around the end of March.

Looking at the high volume speciality plan I was a bit shocked to see such a reduction in weekly TSS? I’ve been doing around 600 TSS a week and will be at around 675 by the time I finish the short power build. The toughest week in the speciality plan is about 540. Will this not make my fitness taper off quite dramatically? Should I be suplementing the plan with additional workouts?

Just wondered if there’s some logic behind that? Pretty sure I’d have to do more TSS just to maintain fitness?

Not all fitness is created equally or measured the same. TSS is basically a measure of volume and approximates to stamina (crudely). Short power build is going to be all about increasing performance for punchy climbs etc.

What’s your primary objective?

Mr Blobby explains it better than I’m managing….

Primary objective is to do as well as possible at the Nationals. I raced sport category last year but will be racing Expert this year. I just don’t want to come last!

The short power build is a slight increase in TSS compared to what I’ve been doing so far. Saying that, overall hours have reduced but the IF has increased a bit. I was expecting a similar transition into the speciality phase (Lower volume and higher TSS & Intensity) instead it appears to drop the hours and TSS with another small increase in IF.

I track both completed and planned workouts in Training Peaks and and it appears that my overall fitness will drop throughout the speciality phase. I guess an expected increase in power could mitigate that?

gray – Member

Erm, about 133%. Word is that they’re doing the calculation based on best 1 minute and best 5 minute power in the test, but I don’t really get how that can be much different from being simply based on how high you get. Assuming the test is properly executed, anyway.

Gave this a whirl tonight, awaiting an ftp value. Not expecting significant changes tbh – prob more useful for someone who had no idea what their ftp might be.

The power steps up linearly, but I reckon the pain curve is more exponential! You’re quite comfortable for the bulk but the last couple of steps quickly put you at your limit. Seemed quite different to 8 or 20 min tests where there’s a lot of adaptation as you get better at pacing the flat intervals. The ramp seemed more cut and dried – perhaps you can train it but it felt more like an open and shut case.

Warm/up was short, as well- don’t know if this is integral to the test but if you’re a slow starter you’re legs won’t appreciate this one.

@r8jimbob88

There is actually a very specific reason that the TSS is reduced during the Specialty Phase.

The aim of the Specialty phase is to tailor a rider’s fitness to be as specific as possible to the demands they’ll face during their key event(s). Workouts in this final phase of training are often the most intense workouts a rider will face over the entire course of the Base/Build/Specialty training cycle.

In contrast to the Specialty phase, the Build phase is responsible for raising the weekly stress to its highest point. If you were to continue this increase (or even maintain the final Build week’s TSS) into the Specialty phase, the combination of higher-intensity workouts, intermittent races and/or practice events, and the residual fatigue some riders might carry after a single Build-phase recovery week could cause a downward performance spiral.

In summary, you should not be supplementing this work with more work, but rather think of the reduction of TSS as a way for your body to get ahead of the fatigue and leave you primed and ready to race 🙂

@ Garry_Lager

Our aim with the Ramp test is exactly as you’ve mentioned. We are looking to create a test that a total beginner can complete and get their FTP without the complexity of pacing, completing a long warmup, etc.

It is complete in around 20 min and you really only have to suffer for those last two or three minutes 🙂

Thanks so much for taking the time to try it out, it really helps us fine tune the formula. Your FTP will be commented on your ride shortly!

Cheers,

Thanks Bryce Lewis, sounds good to me!

I’ll also give this ramp FTP a test next time it comes around.

Hi all, I used trainer road last winter but now cross country ski instead as my winter traiing, coupled with weights.

anyhows,I’m off to Finale at the start of May, when my cycle season starts I guess as the snow will have melted hopefully on my return.

which one of the trainer road programmes would yu guys recommend, to start perhaps around march /april to get ready for it.

as stated, i XC ski now (base or build stage I guess) and I do commute to work by bike as well. ta!

It’s really cool that Bryce comes on here to chat.

I’m currently trying out Zwift while I pause my training for a while but I’ll 100% be back on TR soon. One of the reasons is the customer support I’ve had, but now it sounds like I can get my FTP without 20 mins of teethgrinding I’m even more sold.

@r8jimbob – don’t you want to be doing the xco plan not short track? Think short track is something they do in the states with very short races while our national series is xco style. No idea if there is much difference in the plans though

I’ve recently started sweet spot base, but thinking ahead, if I want to start my speciality phase in August (for cx) then I’m starting too early, should start base in March and build in June. I can’t decide whether I should do an extra base when I finish this one, do extra build or think it gives me some extra weeks to use as recovery/ tapering in amongst the plan as I’ll be doing some xc races as well. I guess for maximal improvement I shouldn’t have extra rest weeks so one of the first two is a better option. Thoughts?

The ramp test looks interesting and definitely be preferable to the 20 minute test!

It would work best with an erg/smart turbo but would it still work with a dumb turbo and a power meter?

ferrals – Member

@r8jimbob – don’t you want to be doing the xco plan not short track? Think short track is something they do in the states with very short races while our national series is xco style. No idea if there is much difference in the plans though

I’ve recently started sweet spot base, but thinking ahead, if I want to start my speciality phase in August (for cx) then I’m starting too early, should start base in March and build in June. I can’t decide whether I should do an extra base when I finish this one, do extra build or think it gives me some extra weeks to use as recovery/ tapering in amongst the plan as I’ll be doing some xc races as well. I guess for maximal improvement I shouldn’t have extra rest weeks so one of the first two is a better option. Thoughts? Is there not something to be said for sitting on your aris for a bit, (metaphorically speaking)? Can’t be pushing the structured training year round.

Will you be doing your CX training outside? I’d love to go into next season strong, but hitting the turbo in the summer seems really difficult.

everyone – Member

The ramp test looks interesting and definitely be preferable to the 20 minute test!

It would work best with an erg/smart turbo but would it still work with a dumb turbo and a power meter? The latter is fine – a little clunky in places with gear changes but overall it’s no problem.

Crikey I’ve been looking at the wrong Speciality plan! Yes it’s the XCO one that will be best for me. Oh how I can’t wait to get stuck into some workouts at 0.93 on the IF scale…. vomit.

@Ferrals, if time was on my side i’d chuck in some additional Base to begin with.

I have Galena for the second time this week tonight, deep joy ahead.

easy week for me next week so might drop the ramp test in there somewhere. I’ll also do the 20 min ftp at the start of my next block (SSBHV2) as I want to be sure I’m working off a correct assessment.

Is there not something to be said for sitting on your aris for a bit, (metaphorically speaking)? Can’t be pushing the structured training year round.

Because of illness I’ve not done much since the end of November and it snot been structured. Hence having the appetite to get started now! Only 10hrs riding the whole of December!

Will you be doing your CX training outside? I’d love to go into next season strong, but hitting the turbo in the summer seems really difficult.

I tend to mix and match but roughly follow what the TR plan is suggested outside as well using percived effort. I do a lot of my training on the commute so stop somehwere for an hour of cx drills / intervals on the way too or from work. However I am a fair weather commuter so if its raining is turbo time.

r8jimbob88 – Member

@Ferrals, if time was on my side i’d chuck in some additional Base to begin with.

Think your right, especially as last season I think i came in over primed as my results went 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 19th and then stablised around there 😳

I had the same issue last year. I didn’t have a huge amount of base fitness before building for the XC season. I only really got my head down in January and by mid June I was begining to suffer. I had a flying start to the season though.

I’ve got 3 months solid base under my belt now so hopefully I’ll be able to see the full season through! I’ll probably take a mini break and skip the National Champs in July.

Yeah, think I’d just be riding whatever bike I fancied, when I fancied, for fun and spend some time doing some structured strength work instead.

which one of the trainer road programmes would you guys recommend, to start perhaps around march /april to get ready for it.

Sweamrs is a nordic skier and it’s pretty cardio intensive so I reckon that combined with commuting is plenty for a base. I’d be looking for something to sharpen power for short punchy climbs and the like so either short power build or XCO / XCM (depending on how much stamina you think you have from other cardio)

spend some time doing some structured strength work instead

Gym? I hate the gym. Or can I do strength work on the bike .. thinking low cadence drills and such

Our aim with the Ramp test is exactly as you’ve mentioned. We are looking to create a test that a total beginner can complete and get their FTP without the complexity of pacing, completing a long warmup, etc.

With FTP being 60MP, we estimate it as a percentage of 20MP, or as average of 2x8MP, and now from a relatively short range of ramping 1 min efforts. I’d be interested to know how consistent a value of FTP can be derived across all the various test protocols. And I guess with TR sessions being scaled by a single value of FTP it’s something that needs to be “right”.

Really all the tests are informing you of different things, all of it potentially useful data, and then you’re estimating a single value based on that result with some margin of error and ignoring the rest 🙂

Edit… I’d prefer a ramp test too as it takes pacing out of the equation and relatively short!