TrainerRoad – STW approved sessions

adsh – Member

^ Much stretching and foam roller on IT band

wrong side of knee, but been doing that anyway. found some killer knots on the bit of thigh that come down inside of knee which may be a contributing factor

TR must be on a sales drive 🙄 I’ve another free taster month to hand out to anyone that wants it. (need name and email to generate the referral)

Thanks for the response Gray.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with my set up per se. Same bike, same tyre, same pressure etc as used for Tacx app calibration. I also calibrated in Zwift prior to the initial FTP then calibrated again in TR when I switched to TR.

In TR I just paired the Tacx and the cadence sensor (cos I didn’t want to take it off the bike). I didn’t change any other settings and only noticed the resistance setting in the bottom left corner once the FTP test had started. IIRC, the default was 60% but didn’t change as I thought it may invalidate the test.
Anyway, I started in the big ring and about half way across the block, so by the time I had to ramp up the power I only had a couple of ratios to play with.
I’ll do a little bit more playing around with the settings before doing another FTP at a more reasonable cadence

I imagine Zwift sets the resistance (analogous to setting the gradient) like it would during normal riding, but doesn’t change it during the test. If Zwift routinely used Erg mode the way that TR did, then you wouldn’t really be able to race people as you’d all be putting out the same wattage whatever you did…!

You may know this already but Zwift has specific workout modes and the behaviour is very different than just riding around the course. When just riding in ERG mode, the resistance is automatically ramped up/down to reflect virtual gradient. In workout mode, gradient is completely ignored and resistance is ramped up/down based on the workout profile

As a result of simply CBA’d due to the weather this weekend, I did Seneca Rocks yesterday and Hilltop today. Never done two hours on a turbo before but with the regularly changing effort levels in Hilltop it went by surprisingly quickly.

Another week of big sessions then a recovery week, though even that has a total TSS of 255!

A good day today. I’m on a rest week, so it was 3 X 20’s at the low end of sweet spot. I decided – I’m new to TT’s – to swap bikes and see how long I could stay down low for.

So, the first went well, I felt good and did the whole 20mins “down low”. The second 20 was option low cadence with hill transitions so I did that and STILL felt good, so I decided to have a bash at a real TT negative split on the final 20. Granted im starting at 85% for 10mins, then ramped it to FTP for 7 mins, then from there to about 108% to the finish.

Obs my legs ached in a muscular way a bit at the end there, but it felt good and I know I could have gone harder and will with a race head on but 40 mins in position in a negative split is a good start.

2.5 hours of drudgery today with a slight hangover . Good times

I’ve not really posted on this thread as I’ve never had much to add/ask but thought I’d tap into what is clearly a huge pool of experience with online training:

I’ve started properly ‘training’ for the first time this winter – normally I consider my commute to/from work enough but it always drops in winter so I thought I’d give a more formalised training plan a go.

I initially played with Zwift but they initially didn’t have training plans and when they did, there was nothing ‘time crunched’ so I have been using TrainerRoad which I think I like. I say think because it is hard to get an objective measure to date of how I’m doing (I think).

I did a formal max and submax test at the University of Birmingham (nearby) and was given an FTP of 270. I weigh 74kg. So I started the Low Volume Sweet Spot Base I and it starts with the 8 min test which gave me an FTP of 220. OK so I don’t have a power meter but fed the site the full details about my cyclops fluid 2, have the right tyre at the right pressure so thought it would have been closer but… Anyway long story short, I’m now just about to start week 4 of sweet spot II. My FTP doesn’t appear to have changed much but I did completely rebuild the turbo bike over christmas so wonder if that changed things enough to throw off the consistency. Given that I want to be able to measure performance and outcome I’ve decided to invest in a pwoermeter. I’ve navigated the myriad options to pick the one I want but now….which book?? Cognacs or Friels?

Anyone used both? Before I am irreversibly committed to buying the power meter (currently on backorder) should I rethink my plan to buy one?

Thanks!!!

I have no idea about a lot of what you’re saying but from my limited experience , pick one method of measuring performance and stick to it. Don’t adjust the turbo , don’t use different ftp tests oh and get a fan 🙂

From my simplistic point of view, doesn’t matter what your actual power is as long as it is a consistent measure. Which is why I have fallen out with my Kickr, now using a stages to control it, as I use the stages on the road and want it to be the same.
I haven’t regretted getting a power meter but I did regret a year or two back getting a bit lost with too much info, I now just follow a relevant trainerroad program on the turbo and have a good feel of what I want to do on the road from these programs.
I would say pick one method and stick with it, I liked Friels but haven’t read any other to any extent.
Edit: what he said ^

I find Friel a bit less complicated and a bit more “real life”, and his periodisation principle works well for me.

Thanks Krypton. Yeah howsyourdad and rsvktm, I didn’t initially have a fan – big mistake that was – I do now. I guess the consistency bit is the key and hence the decision to go for a proper powermeter rather than a computer guess.

I agree. I have no idea whether the FTP trainerroad assigns to me is accurate. However, as all the variables stay the same – the bike is permanently on the turbo, tyre same psi etc, same lump pedalling the thing – it enables comparisons to be made. Going by feel and perceived effort this has proved pretty accurate.

Exactly , the guess is based on the same variables . A powermeter would be nice though!

However, as all the variables stay the same

Depends on the turbo too. My old mag one use to “loosen up” significantly over the course of a session (mostly over the first 30 mins.) Could be two or three gears faster for a given power (based on a proper power meter.) If I was using virtual power I’d be going too hard at the beginning and too easy at the end. My current LeMond turbo using air resistance seems a lot more consistent.

Other benefit of a real PM is that it allows meaningful comparison with outdoor work.

Picked up a new one recently for the turbo bike as my hub one wouldn’t work with a direct drive turbo. Got the PowerTap C1 in a sale for a little over 400 quid. Ok, still quite a bit of cash but they’re no longer super expensive bits of kit.

Cognacs or Friels?

Assume you mean Coggan? 🙂

Both are worth getting. Friel’s books are more around how to build training plans. The Allen and Coggan book is more about how to work with the data you get from a PM. Friel’s is more accessible and probably the place to start. The other gets into the real detail of IF, NP, TSS etc and how to work with ATL, CTL and TSB as part of performance management.

Oops – yes, Coggan! The ability to run power both inside and outside is part of the drive to a powermeter.

After fun doing the 20 minute FTP test on Saturday I started a slightly reduced version of the 8 week low volume XC Olympic training plan. Kicked off today with Raymond, which was actually a quite nice 4x 5min 108% FTP intervals. Fairly comfortable which makes me wonder if I didn’t try hard enough on the FTP test, but I’ll keep it at this level for the next 6 weeks just for consistency.

Going to compress the plan slightly to use it as a buildup to the first of the Midlands XC races at Sherwood Pines which is in 6 weeks time. Will take the first 4 weeks and last 2 weeks of the plan. Then I’ll just need to figure out what to do in the 5 week intervals between each race round.

5mins at 108% FTP should not feel “nice” 😆 I find any workout with an IF above 0.80 or so to be hard work, once the IF is 0.85 and above then it starts to be an effort to finish with good form, often it’s a grit your teeth and hang in there.

If that was your first FTP test then it’s quite likely you didn’t try hard enough, early improvements in FTP are often due to becoming better at the test. You can always bump the FTP up in your profile. If the figure is close to what it should be then you’ll get the benefit of each workout in the different zones but if it isn’t then workouts like over-unders which fluctuate around your FTP will be somewhat pointless.

Edit: You said the 20min FTP test was “fun”, was this your first such test and were you using Trainerroad’s default 200W FTP level?

While not “nice” they shouldn’t be too bad. You’d have done 20 mins at 105% so 5 min efforts at 108% shouldn’t be too painful.

… though does depend on the individual. Two people with the same 20 min power are unlikely have the same 5 minute power. Is a bit of a problem with basing efforts of different duration on a percentage of a single value and not a more complete power profile.

5mins at 108% FTP should not feel “nice” I find any workout with an IF above 0.80 or so to be hard work, once the IF is 0.85 and above then it starts to be an effort to finish with good form, often it’s a grit your teeth and hang in there.

If that was your first FTP test then it’s quite likely you didn’t try hard enough, early improvements in FTP are often due to becoming better at the test. You can always bump the FTP up in your profile. If the figure is close to what it should be then you’ll get the benefit of each workout in the different zones but if it isn’t then workouts like over-unders which fluctuate around your FTP will be somewhat pointless.

Edit: You said the 20min FTP test was “fun”, was this your first such test and were you using Trainerroad’s default 200W FTP level?

Well, nice isn’t exactly the right word. I know I’ve done a workout. I’ve never really done intervals of any form on a bike before, and coming from doing running intervals, where 5 minute ones are incredibly hard, it didn’t feel like the same level of effort.

But then I guess that’s the point behind training to power. To work at just the right level, not too easy, not too hard. I’m used to using heart rate for this when running, but I have trouble using heart rate on the bike as the perceived effort is lower.

You’re probably right on the test level. I used the default of 200 and it’s given me an FTP of 171. I’ll see out these 6 weeks on this level, do the first race, have a recovery week and then do another test to re-baseline. It doesn’t really matter at the moment getting it right, more just to bring some structure into my bike training given I can’t run for the next six months.

Oh, and most importantly, I joined the STW TrainerRoad team.

The FTP tests are a bit odd in how they are presented, in order to maintain/attain the FTP level you need to ride the test, as Mrblobby says, at 105% probably a little higher to allow for variations in your power output. You can adjust the test (or any workout) by using the slider bar in the app. You can always retest in a week or two.

The problem with using HR for training on the bike is that it lags behind your power output so on short intervals you will have finished the interval before your heart rate reaches the target level.

The problem with using HR for training on the bike is that it lags behind your power output so on short intervals you will have finished the interval before your heart rate reaches the target level.

Yes, exactly. When running it’s very easier to ramp your HR up and down really quickly, so power is much better suited to a bike.

The FTP tests are a bit odd in how they are presented, in order to maintain/attain the FTP level you need to ride the test, as Mrblobby says, at 105% probably a little higher

Thats what I do riding to 105% for the first half and riding the second as a negative splits as high as I think I can manage for 10, then 5 then 3 then 1 minutes hopefully on an ever increasing scale to death.

I have a couple of questions one and all. I’m coming to the end of my base training, low volume Trad base. Next is of course build. I think I’m going to go for short power build ,as i’ll be racing #enduro most , one or two downhills and an ‘all mountain’ race. Anyhow, i’m thinking about doing mid volume. Is it based only on the time you have available or also your ability to recover/complete it? thanks!

I think it’s just based on the time available though the IF drops as you go from low-mid-high in most of the plans which suggests that recovery time is also adjusted.

Trad base? Blimey! I looked at the trad plans and thought I’d struggle with the length and comparative monotony of them.

so perhaps it doesnt matter? like you dont get more out of a higher volumne?

yeah it seems like i have been doing base training since last summer. it is beginning to suck . last sundays 2.5 hours was shhhhhhhh ite

High volume trad base here building to a killer final 3 week block. Week 1 800 tss completed and now the cold/flu that’s been doing the rounds is starting to strike 😥

Carpathian Peak for me tonight.

Pushed up the intensity by 2% for the last interval as I didn’t feel the effort was quite enough. Whether that’s because I’ve got fitter in the last couple of weeks since I did the FTP test but it might be that that test was my first 20min FTP test so I might not have got it quite right.

missed Tuesdays session due to knee issues, rode outside yesterday, Lamarck this evening for me.

Plotted out my next 6 weeks at lunch, finish off SS base in the next two weeks and then a mix of build and speciality for the following month till my first race.

Anyone fancy critiquing my plan for the build/specialit month(image below)? As much as possible I’ll actually ride outside but focussing on mimic the plan with HR and percieved exertion – if I can find my HR monitor that is!

Did Lamark last night, didnt find it too bad, was consistantly over my FTP during the intervals. I’ve upped my FTP from 307 to 310 accordingly (my average over the 4 was 312) no idea if changing by 3watts makes any appreciable differnece. Still after a rest week next week I’ll be re testing, also going to up the resistance level on the trainer then.

also going to up the resistance level on the trainer then.

Do you need to? Have you run out of gears? Will change the properties of the turbo and could impact the test results. If you really need to change it I’d do it now and get a few rides in at the new setting before doing any testing.

Looks like a reasonable plan though. That for XC racing? Thing I’d want to add is to do some race pace intervals out on proper XC trails.

@ferrals See my post above about changing the intensity by 2%, for me that equated to about 5W at FTP which doesn’t sound much but it made the last interval pretty stressful.

If the FTP you are working to is about right then even a small change can have quite significant effects especially for things like over-unders where the intention is to only spend a part of the time above FTP to stress your muscles with the unders letting you recover. If your intensity is too low, even by a couple of Watts, then you never get the stress. Conversely if the intensity is too high then you don’t get the recovery so you are beasting yourself for the entire interval. Might not be much of a concern for VO2Max intervals – they are going to hurt whatever! 🙄

Basically don’t assume that your FTP is right for the duration of a plan, you might have had a good or bad day when you did the test, you might have got fitter, etc. You can and should modify it according to your current ability/fitness/freshness, etc.

mrblobby – Member

Do you need to? Have you run out of gears?

Probably not quite run out of gears, but almost, for short sharp bursts I’m in the hardest gear and 110rpm, can’t really get over 600w because I’m spinning out. Guess thats almost 200%FTP though.

Looks like a reasonable plan though. That for XC racing? Thing I’d want to add is to do some race pace intervals out on proper XC trails

Yeah for xc racing. good point re race pace intervals, will try and do that on the Saturday sessions. Will need to think of some good singletrack i can use thats not too technical. As I turbo train on the cx bike I’m going to be doing as much as possible outside on mtb with percieved exertion/HR. so for example tomorrow instead of actually doing Mary Austin I’ll probably drive to a wood with a nice 5km fireorad loop in rolling hills and mimic the work out in that.

@whitestone, yeah I guess having tested 6 weeks ago a few watts cahnge is viable. Also, a big difference is I’ve bought a fan so the heat stress is much much lower.

can’t really get over 600w because I’m spinning out

? I’m using 25/11 on a road bike am getting 750w in 54/17.

I should have tested this week but have avoided it, becuase I’ve been working from 5am on several occasions and have been forced to work my turbo sessions at 8pm, so am tired.

Basically don’t assume that your FTP is right for the duration of a plan, you might have had a good or bad day when you did the test, you might have got fitter, etc. You can and should modify it according to your current ability/fitness/freshness, etc.

This. I’m smashing my intervals at the start of XCO – 4×5 min VO2 max last night, all done in the TT position, and on the last one I just had a lot left so smashed it and ramped from 108% to 175% for the big finish on the final interval, after an hours workout.

The family is out Saturday 9-2pm, and its raining here so its a big opportunity for me to laze about, eat well and smash a 20 min tests at midday.

I’ll probably drive to a wood with a nice 5km fireorad loop in rolling hills and mimic the work out in that.

I was planning to do something similar but I haven’t got an aqualung. Whatever the weather I have to train outside this weekend as I am now so fatigued that I can no longer reliably hold zone on the turbo. ATL 100 doesn’t tell the whole story.

@Kryton – biggest gear is 46fr 12rear, curently using the middle resistance setting of turbo.

@adsh – I’m just not sure if training using cx bike on the turbo is quite as beneficial for mtb as real world training as using a cx bike the position is slightly different (incl q factor in my case), so I’m tying to ride outside as much as possible. The weather does look rank though!

I use an MTB for everything now to try to replicate my position as much as possible for that very reason.

I have a goretex jacket I’ve not used in 3 years and Castelli nanoflex bibshorts. I have no excuse other than my immune system has fought off the lurgy and 4hrs of wet will probably make me succumb. Lie in, shorter turbo session and make up for it next week in S.Wales

my immune system has fought off the lurgy and 4hrs of wet will probably make me succumb.

Similar thinking here. Turbo today is looking inevitable.

Bloody hate this weather 🙁

Weather’s fine here, but my back brace isn’t coming off for another 3 weeks. I have the go ahead to try the turbo though! Have bought a 26″ turbo tyre and got a mountain bike down from the loft. Just waiting for a skinny tube to arrive then I’ll be all set up. Don’t really have a plan yet, I just want to see if it hurts to sit on a bike and pedal!

^ You may be near me (Wallingford) – I have a QR 26″ wheel with a trainer tyre if you want?

Turbo today is looking inevitable.

Bloody hate this weather.

Yup. I was planning an 80k road ride originally. With a plan of 100 – 150k outside base miles every weekend from December to March completely blown, I’m concerned about starting my season without miles in my legs.

Could be worse though, this time last year I was in the middle of my second chest infection in 12 weeks…

I applaud your ability to get on with things Gray, not sure I’d be so chipper in your situation, well done that man!