TrainerRoad – STW approved sessions

Haze – I’ve been using a Stages ofor a while now and used TR quite a bit without too. The Stages will always be a bit more erratic than the Virtual Power and it does jump around a fair bit. Even with 3sec smoothing on I still find it does it.

For that reason, I have Lap Normalised Power on my head unit and press the lap button at the start of each phase. I’ve found it marries up perfectly with the target bar at the top of the screen!

Cheers, to be honest I expect it to jump around a bit but when I really focus on smoothing things out I can hold it reasonably well, even notice a fair jump in output.

Guess it’s emphasising flaws in my natural technique, I’m not bouncing but seems I’m heavy on the down stroke and neglecting the rest.

Opportunities for improvement!

@everyone – that’s what I was like this morning 😳 Two minutes in to the last effort I needed to drop the power as I wouldn’t have made it to the end otherwise. With the poor weather forecast for tomorrow I might actually do a weekend turbo session, in this case Pallisade.

Guess it’s emphasising flaws in my natural technique, I’m not bouncing but seems I’m heavy on the down stroke and neglecting the rest.

Also, dont forget the PM will only register on the left so there is bound to be a spike on every reveloution.

This was evidenced when I did Bald Knob on Tuesday with some single leg efforts…I was putting out 290w with my left leg but only about 80w with my right (not fully unclipped on the trailing leg, rather 90%/10%)

Haven’t figured out how to get through the ILT’s yet, probably just get on with it, ignore the zero power reading from the right leg and focus on eliminating the knock.

I really benefited from training with virtual power, but the power meter is telling me a lot more of what’s actually going on…

.I was putting out 290w

You were putting out 290w on a 70% FTP effort? And I know you aren’t a big chap….

Balls, as I know your coming into Vets next year I have work to do….

It took me a good few sessions to get ILTs sorted so don’t worry about it too much. The hardest part for me since I’m using Look pedals is reclipping at each transition.

Haven’t figured out how to get through the ILT’s yet, probably just get on with it, ignore the zero power reading from the right leg and focus on eliminating the knock.

Thats a good reason for using NP really, it balances it out

You were putting out 290w on a 70% FTP effort? And I know you aren’t a big chap….

Balls, as I know your coming into Vets next year I have work to do….

Ha….that was only trying to keep a steady cadence while pedalling predominantly with my left leg. When balancing it out it was only at 70% FTP

Plus, as much wattage as I can put out (i’m essentially a sprinter) for 6 secs or so, I certainly can’t hold it for long….I’m a bit of a 1 lap wonder hahaha

You were putting out 290w on a 70% FTP effort? And I know you aren’t a big chap….

Actually, it might have been closer to the 250w rather than 290

Thats a good reason for using NP really, it balances it out

Cheers Gaz, I’d stopped using my head unit on the turbo but will look into it.

(i’m essentially a sprinter) for 6 secs or so, I certainly can’t hold it for long….I’m a bit of a 1 lap wonder

Thanks for that bit of strategic info 8) 😀

Thats a good reason for using NP really, it balances it out

Yep.

I find my NP is much higher in races – over 20% higher – than on the Turbo no matter how hard the session, but I guess thats only to be expected…

Thanks for that bit of strategic info

Ha….work in progress 😛

Yep.

I find my NP is much higher in races – over 20% higher – than on the Turbo no matter how hard the session, but I guess thats only to be expected…

I’m inclined to say thats just the Turbo effect…hot room, lack of adrenalin etc

Yeah, still producing only 450w at 55% FTP in less than ideal conditions during Base is something I’ll have to cope with…. 😉

Just finished a slightly hungover Fletcher following a work night out. Just managed to finish it before my boy woke from his lunch nap . Let’s see what it does to the hangover

So I’m just getting to grips with TR. I’ve not got a power meter so am using virtual power with HR and speed/cadence and a Fluid 2.

I’ve done a lab max and sub max test so have ‘official’ FTP, LTHR and HR bands (amongst a host of data!) and am trying to centre winter base training on that. I’ve found a tick box in the TR profile to use HR based workouts but it doesn’t really seem to have done much – I was wondering if anyone here has any insight into how to make this work?

FWIW and as an aside, I’ve found the TR power guess better than Zwifts. TR 8 min test gave me an FTP of 228 watts; Zwifts 20 min test gave 178 watts (!) and the lab test FTP is 270 watts. Im 75kg. With the limited,suing around I’ve done, I think TR is more of a tool than Zwift (currently).

Anyway, any advice re HR centred training would be appreciated. Last night I just ignored to power band and kept to my HR zones (although to be fair they were close) but it’d be nice to be able to use HR as the driving metric (perhaps too Luddite these days?!)

The point about the FTP values isn’t their absolute accuracy but their consistency within the particular training tool, so if you only ever bother about FTP within Trainerroad then there is no point comparing that value with one obtained in Zwift or in a lab. Of course it’s reassuring if they are reasonably close.

From the figures you give it seems like you might have the input data for your turbo wrong so TR gives an incorrect output. Again consistency is key – use the same resistance setting, the same pressure in the rear tyre (use a digital meter like the Topeak rather than the one on your pump), the same pressure between the tyre and the turbo’s roller.

The difference between using power and HR is that power measures what you are doing whereas HR measures how your body is coping with what you have done. Training by HR zones is fine for steady state stuff, the Z2 & Z3 long steady rides, though even here you will suffer from cardiac drift as cumulative fatigue sets in and at the end of a ride you will be going slower for the same HR output. Speed on the road is directly related to power input not HR output.

I’ve taken this ride https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2635133-Carson-45 from TR as an example (purely because it’s the most recent at the time I’m writing this). The last effort is a bit wayward so we’ll ignore that for this discussion but the first three are reasonable. Notice how the red line for the HR gradually rises both during the effort and across efforts whereas line for the power output is reasonably steady (ignoring the minor fluctuations which look a lot worse than they really are). More importantly look at the HR during the rest intervals – the rider’s heart is doing nearly as much work during those as during the efforts themselves.

A second example, this time of short explosive efforts https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2635126-Dana notice how even though the power output follows the target power the HR bears no resemblance to what the rider is doing, it ramps up to 170 and stays up there even though the rider’s output is varying by 40% or so. Obviously for whatever reason the rider failed to finish the session but the point holds.

Before I started with TR I used HR zones using the workouts feature on my Garmin, it was just really hard work to do anything consistently especially with short sprint bursts where the effort was over before my heart had responded.

One of TR’s support guys – trevorduise(?) posts on here. TR’s support is pretty good too so they will be able to help you as well.

The only advantage to using HR for you with TR seems to be “getting in the right zone” better than the TR estimated power. The easy answer is to ignore HR, do a fresh 8 or 20 minute test using TR and use that value as your FTP. TR never really claimed to be “accurate”, but more be consistent. You’ll find power (virtual or real) a far better informer of effort, especially as the intervals get shorter. There are a lot of reasons to use “power” rather than HR and a quick Google should pop up a lot of info. As an example, you’ll also get better information as to your week to week load and a whole host of other things that come with training with “power”.

Or get a Power Meter. Can be had for around 400 quid with some of the current deals and is a lot less faff than worrying about getting a consistent turbo setup.

less faff than worrying about getting a consistent turbo setup.

exactly why i went down the stages/dm turbo – no faff

I have npn TR depression. I missed a session last night – just too tired / children conspired against me and I new if I tried I wouldn’t do it justice, so hit the beer instead.

Its supposed to be rest week next week with me finishing sweet spot with Mary Austin tomorrow. I’m tempted instead to do last nights workout – Lamark – tomorrow and Mary A Tuesday instead, then doing the rest week until the following Tuesday when I start Build with a 20min Test.

Sounds like a good plan Kryton. I’ve found that as the plans build up I need to ensure that “proper riding” doesn’t get in the way and it also helps to be flexible as to the indicated days but I try to keep to the indicated order of workouts. With the bad weather this weekend I might do the TR sessions instead of risking the high winds.

@mrblobby & @dirtyrider True a power meter obviates the need for a consistent setup to a degree but £400+ vs a moment’s attention to detail is quite a hit.

Yes I do the same whitestone. I normally ride Sunday’s losing that days TR session, but this week various kids duties remove the opportunity.

Its going to take a bit of commitment to spent 1:30 in the pain cave Tuesday after work doing Mary A….

I accept that the better solution is to buy a power meter but thats just not possible at the moment. I’m pretty sure I can balance the virtual power with the heat rate zones, just wish I could make HR the driving metric for a workout.

Re: power and HR – I am of the understanding that what we are trying to do in the HR zones / power zones is work specific aspects of our physiology to drive innate exercise/stress adaption. In that respect isn’t the better measure the one that is measuring physiology – ie. HR? It strikes me that power is the output and measuring that / training to that risks ignoring what the physiology is doing. Using whitestones workout above – to maintain power as you tire results in a greater physiological demand so HR goes up to maintain a set and level wattage. As I understand it that can result in crossing over physiological zones (eg. endurance into tempo) whilst trying to keep the power within the set zone – which would change the adaption you are trying to affect. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick completely?

I have an old bike permanently hooked up to the turbo so even if trainerroad virtual power is way off, the set up is very consistent allowing comparisons to be made. The only thing I do is ensure the psi of the tyre is the sa for each session. Means doing a session is quick too – no faffing about changing wheels etc.

Shortbread – likewise. Same bike remains hooked up over winter and PSI kept constant. Makes for easier sessions.

Infidel, I was under the impression that HR may vary depending on freshness, temperature, stress levels etc. whereas power is a more consistent factor to measure against.

HR also takes a while to adjust to your interval, probably okay for longer steady state intervals but less so for short sharper work as the interval is over by the time your HR has adjusted.

In the absence of a power meter I’d use virtual power set to the FTP given by 8 minute test in TrainerRoad, your lab FTP will have no bearing since your using an different set up and actually measuring speed against an assumed resistance (the power curve of your trainer).

Likewise for Zwift, I’d use the FTP given by the software in isolation from anything else.

@infidel Haze has it right – your HR isn’t just dependent upon the effort that you are making but also your current physiological state, it’s a rather blunt instrument when compared to power. It’s not as blunt as perceived effort but if you’ve got the chance to use power then that will be more accurate. You don’t need to buy a power meter, so long as you use the same system throughout a training regimen, the actual figures don’t matter it’s just the power relative to the system’s standard (FTP or whatever) that matters.

HR zone training was fine when it was all we (as amateur riders) had, much better than the guesswork that went before. Power is consistent in that pedalling at a given cadence in a particular gear will produce the same power whether you are fresh, tired, recovering from illness, a kilo heavier than yesterday, etc.

Don’t worry about balancing power and HR zones, while they are similar riding on a turbo produces a different (usually higher) HR response to riding outside as there is basically no easing up or coasting. Cardiac drift is the principal reason why training to HR zones is a blunt instrument. The physiological zones (endurance, tempo, etc) are input zones not response zones, training is the attempt to bring your response in to line with the input – fitness in simple terms.

@Infidel

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/powertap-sl-on-mavic-open-pro-150

£150

Guys, thanks for the time and advice. Just spent an hour on the phone with a mate who has bee training with HR and power for years. He’s also a physio so had a good understanding of the underlying science. Between him and you guys I now properly understand. He had a look at my trainerroad files and the Vo2 Max and submit test results and showed me where they met – its pretty much as you all said; although the numbers for FTP are different they are reflecting the same thing so I’m going to work with the virtual power bearing the HR in mind as second line.

Krypton – thanks for the pointer. I am actually saving up for the BePro pedals. I’ve been offered a quark saturn for not much more that the powertap here but would rather wait a bit and buy something new with a warranty and which I can transfer between bikes. DCRainmaker seems to think the BePros are OK so I thought I’d wait a bit.

Double dose of Sufferlandria this morning. TGTTOS followed up with Extra Shot.

Lovely!

Did Palisade today – I was going to do it yesterday but a shopping trip to Leeds got in the way 🙄 Definitely hard work – I was thinking of backing right off or omitting the last interval altogether but gave it a go and hung in there to the end. The power was fluctuating a bit during the last interval – I can normally stick within a Watt or two of the target but was up and down by about 10 Watts either side for that one.

Now a recovery week before things ramp up again – Sweet Spot Mid Volume 2 😳

Whitestone, your not helping me… I’m a week behind on sweetspot, Warlow was tough enough yesterday. Very wet, windy and muddy mtb today was a good reminder that I do actually enjoy riding bikes 🙂

I did Warlow today. It wasn’t easy, but not that hard really. I bumped it up by 5% for the last 9 minute set, and 10% for the last hard minute. So, I’m new at this really – does this mean my FTP is just set too low, or is this workout not supposed to be really hard (it is base training after all)?

I missed out on Warlow last week as I went for a ride with my wife – getting out for a ride on the road or fell shows the reason why you are doing the training.

The “over” efforts on Palisade aren’t quite at the same level as those on Warlow but do go on and you need to hang in there … I’m actually a week behind on the plan as I was recovering from a chest infection when I should have started. Given I should have done Palisade yesterday and Maclure today I might bring the rest week’s sessions forward by a day so I’ve got a bit more flexibility next weekend.

@gray – depends where in the plan (if you are following one) you are, on the SP mid volume it comes towards the end of a month of effort so feels hard. Also if you’ve only done one FTP test then it’s possible then it isn’t entirely accurate (within Trainerroad) as you won’t have got the test right, doing another test might realign things – you’ll be both fitter and be better at the test.

Whitestone, I ride every day either commuting or just messing around in winter and find the rigid nature of a plan difficult to follow so end up following the order but not always the days. I’ve always been more of a sprinter and never done much turbo work before so find the constant efforts interesting… It’s a big mental thing for me not to give up, use an erg trainer so handily don’t get chance or I would.
Gray, as above re FTP but for me sweetspot is hard but as they say it’s not that fatiguing, ie hurts a bit while doing it but can do it again the next day, and the next.
However I did have the thought why ? Not getting paid to do this, never likely to and all this work to hopefully get a few podiums if I’m lucky. Then sod it, why not 🙂

Virginia for me tonight , plugging away at the very beginning of traditional base low volume . All going well really .

Thanks both. Yep, I’m doing it as part of the sweet spot base plan. Mainly following the low volume variant, but been doing about 4 – 8 hours of low intensity outdoors on top (sometimes dropping the weekend turbo as a result). I’ve done the 8 minute test twice. Seemed to judge it pretty well considering – was only just able to hang on, but very constant throughout and between the efforts. Probably have got fitter, and also have realised that I did a firmware update a couple of weeks ago that could have messed with the trainer. Have drifted my FTP setting up by 10 watts since starting the plan. Will retest in a couple of weeks I guess. Of course, it’s possible that I got clean looking tests by simply not killing myself enough!