TrainerRoad – STW approved sessions

Tinker tonight. Struggled with the last effort, mainly due to the short recovery periods of 50 seconds. Getting ready to start a Sweet Base training plan next week.

I did Tinker last night Whitestone – was hanging on during the las interval, found it really tough.

Tinker looks quite hard!

dirtyrider, if my powertap ever dies I’ll be getting a dd turbo… the bloody thing just keeps on going though!

@shortbread

Glad it’s not just me 😳

Have you kicked off your latest sessions at the lower (247w) FTP, left it high or started again somewhere in the middle?

sorry missed this,

I’ve put it down to 260W i guess I’m around there somewhere, i did 244W outdoors for 60 minutes last week, 260W is a decent guess, without doing a test again, I’ve certainly not struggled (apart from a concentration issue) with the 3 sessions i did last week (Sweetspot stuff) whereas there was no way i could have done rubber glove at 330W for 20 minutes

would have been daft not to reduce it, was 14+ weeks since i turned a pedal, plus the addition of some metalwork in my leg, at a guess 240-260W is probably where I’m at as a genetic base maybe

heres my power curve from Strava, dark lower line is everything after my injury, lighter from earlier in the year,

the drop of has almost followed a similar pattern throughout the curve,

Thanks.

The reason I asked is that I’m hoping to start winter with Sweet Spot on Tuesday after a 4 week layoff due to these virus’s. My ego doesnt want to reduce my FTP, but I should follow the rules and complete the FTP test and Tuesday and start my SS/Build/Special as I build toward starting competitve in March.

I guess not doing so is just knackering my body into resignation with practically no gain.

I’m still a bit Chesty and am attempting a 4hr social mtb tomorrow hopefully it won’t comprimise my plan as I’m already a week late.

I’m relatively new to all of this – aside from about 5 goes on a dumb trainer about 15 years ago, I’ve only been turboing for a few weeks.

I decided that the best chance of being able to ‘enjoy’ (at least tolerate) it would be if I had some data-gubbins to stare at, so went for a Tacx Vortex Smart. I got it from Rose Bikes for about £220. For those who don’t know, this is kind of an entry point into the world of electronic trainers, i.e. those that can transmit power data, but also electrically control the power output (so you or your software tells the trainer a target power, and the trainer controls the resistance to hit the target power regardless of cadence, gear selection etc.).

It’s good, though not perfect. Which is kind of the point of this post: if anyone is considering getting one and wants to know more about how it works in practice, please drop me a line (posting here will do) and I’ll answer questions / write a detailed review!

Kryton, same old story. If you aren’t well you need to rest and chill out. If you are well after a layoff then it the same as any other time- regular FTP testing is key

Dumb newbie question, and playing catch up. I thought FTP was power over an hour? If I read some of the above posts people are referring to 20minute power?

Useful to see the strava power curve, mine is similar (after 5 whole rides!) I was quite surprised there isn’t more difference between ‘times’ and the power on my chart.

It is hour power. People commonly use 95% of 20 min power as an approximation. More manageable as a regular test than a full hour effort.

It’s bloody hard and takes a lot out of your to ride your true maximum 60 minute power. 20 minutes (or 2×8) is used to estimate your 60 min power usually as it is a more feasible and repeatable. There were some good links earlier in the thread- I’ll try and find them. At the end of the day you are trying to quantify “fitness”. Your 60 minute max power (FTP) is just an accepted metric of “fitness”

There are a few reasons why estimating FTP from shorter efforts is useful. Plenty of books / resources will explain why, but here’s a short version:

1. For relatively untrained people, the definition of FTP as “most you can sustain for an hour” isn’t actually terribly useful, compared with something more akin to a “most that you can sustain for a decent length of time, i.e. not loading up your muscles because you’re over the threshold”. So estimating an FTP from a shorter effort is better in this context, since the training plan is very unlikely to sustain high intensity for anything like an hour.

2. Burying yourself for an hour doing giving absolutely everything is quite a big deal. It’s not actually that easy to do (e.g. newbies will not know how hard to push for the first 20 minutes), so it would take quite a few goes to get an accurate measure.

3. Doing it properly will take a lot out of you, and interfere with training.

So instead, the tendency is to use 8 minute or 20 minute tests, and apply a scaling factor to account for the fact that most people can sustain a higher output for 8 (or 20) minutes than they can for an hour.

HTH..

FTP is your predicted average output for an hour but the test recognises that you might not want to actually do that so there’s a 20 minute version and an 8 minute version. The average power for these tests is then adjusted to get your FTP.

Phew. Completed Carter last night as my way of easing back in – 45 mins of z2/3. No coughing fits and actually felt quite good after.

I’ll do it again Thursday, hope to complete the easy Club ride (50/60k) on Saturday and perhaps start Sweet Spot next week.

Still got a touch of cough, / bronchial irration/phlegm though, so it needs to clear by Friday for that plan to work!

Nice work. Good to hear it’s clearing up. When you due to be racing next? Still doing brass monkeys? I’ve signed up for the first two rounds at 2hrs. I suspect it’ll be a very painful reminder of how hard xc racing is!

A few more go’s on Galena here. Quite like it as a getting back into it session. Steady, not too long, but still a good 100 TSS.

Was due to start Sweet Spot mid volume last night (the 8 minute FTP test was the first session!) but I’ve a strained Achilles tendon so need to let that sort itself out. Hopefully by next week I’ll be good to go.

When you due to be racing next? Still doing brass monkeys?

Yes – although I accidentally agreed to a Welsh Weekend away on the 15th Nov so December will be the first one.

These aren’t target events* for me just fun / training so I’m still not sure whether to go 2 or 4hr – the latter is my thought to extend the event into hard-paced endurance training as I really need distance on the bike this winter.

*Until the red mist descends, obvs. 😀

Until the red mist descends, obvs.

Absolutely! If you’ve pinned on a number then it’s always full gas 🙂

Had my first go on TrainerRoad last night. I haven’t done the FTP test yet so left FTP at the default 200 and did mount road at 90% (still tired from cx on Sunday. Overall really impressed. Minor niggle that you can’t do the ‘along the bottom’ display on an ipad so i had the ipad on one side and the laptop with the replay of sundays UCI cross race on the other. Also I couldnt get my HR monitor to connect and couldnt find a button to get it to look for it, seemed it found the speed and cadence thing and then stopped looking for HR.

How brutal is the 8 min FTP test? I’ve got club training tomorrow, racing sunday and my knee is giving me a bit of jip, wondering if i should leave it till next week when I have more time or man up and do it tonight? If I leave it is the default 200 low or fairly average. I’m not that powerful anyway, think climber over sprinter.

Also I couldnt get my HR monitor to connect and couldnt find a button to get it to look for it, seemed it found the speed and cadence thing and then stopped looking for HR.

This ANT+ with the dongle or bluetooth?

How brutal is the 8 min FTP test?

Ride as hard as you possibly can for 8 minutes, twice. It’s sick bucket stuff but it’s not that fatiguing. Best to do it when you’re relatively fresh though.

The 8min FTP test is as brutal as you want it to be! By default it will be set to about 10% over and above your current FTP (or 200) but you can of course push harder if you so wish but you should aim to be consistent both throughout the course of each interval and between intervals. So try not to ride one interval at 280W and the other at 240W for example. It takes a couple of tries to get used to the test so the improvements you see the second time you do the test can be as much about this as actual fitness.

TrainerRoad’s recommendation is that you have a day of rest (at least) before doing the test. Worth noting what you do, eat, etc. during the day so next time you do it you can be consistent. Ideally everything in your set up should be the same.

It takes a couple of tries to get used to the test so the improvements you see the second time you do the test can be as much about this as actual fitness.

I’d say that’s where a lot of people early gains come from, you get better at testing

My first test I improved from the base 200 to 218 (9%), on the second I went from 218 to 226 (3.5%).

Even though I’ve not been using TR over the summer when I was out in Majorca one of our group had a power meter (Stages) and on a long climb it gave an average power for him of 230W, I was keeping up with him (lost about 50 metres in 9.5Km). Strava’s estimated power for me on that segment was also 230W.

If we assume that I’ve kept my fitness over the summer then having three independent values all very close gives me reasonable confidence in the figures that TR use for VirtualPower.

@mrblobby – bluetooth. Checked HRM was working with strava on phone, but it wouldn’t connect with trainer-road.

If you need a day or two of rest before the test I’ll wait till next week and just potter along at the default 200 till them. might have a go this evening just to get a feel for what its like.

@mrblobby – bluetooth. Checked HRM was working with strava on phone, but it wouldn’t connect with trainer-road.

was it still connected to strava? I found I sometimes had to kill strava to get trainerroad app to recognise bluetooth devices correctly.

Ah maybe, yes I’ll give that a go later

No need to have Strava running whilst using TR – you can sync the two automatically once you’ve completed the workout.

Even though I’ve not been using TR over the summer when I was out in Majorca one of our group had a power meter (Stages) and on a long climb it gave an average power for him of 230W, I was keeping up with him (lost about 50 metres in 9.5Km). Strava’s estimated power for me on that segment was also 230W.

Strava estimated power is likely way off still. You have to factor in the difference in weight between you and the other guy, plus gaining those extra 50m costs a lot of Watts even though it looks like a small gap…

If we assume that I’ve kept my fitness over the summer then having three independent values all very close gives me reasonable confidence in the figures that TR use for VirtualPower.

As is said all through the thread, TR is not really trying to be “accurate” it is trying to consistent. I wouldn’t read too much in to any of these different numbers. Just be consistent in what you use to scale your efforts on the turbo

I’m getting a new turbo soon (Kickr) and was wondering if it’s useful to have a cadence sensor for TR or not.

It’s another variable for you to monitor and control in your training. I find it useful.

Quite a few of the sweet spot trainer road sessions include cadance drills so for those it’d be useful (obviously). How much dedicated cadence drills are beneficial to a mountain biker I’m not sure about. While I’d love to spin up hills at 100rpm it just doesn’t seem to work as I generally spin at 85 (ish) and then spin up for short punchy climbs and the like.

I like having it for TR but don’t miss it on the mtb.

The Kickr doesn’t transmit cadence data? (Checks internet..) No it doesn’t. My Tacx jobber seems to, which I assume must be worked out from the periodic variation in wheel speed. I have a Garmin speed / cadence sensor anyway, and I did ask the TrainerRoad people whether it matter to TR whether the Garmin was connected. Initially they said “well yes, since your Tacx doesn’t do cadence”, and when I explained that it did they were a bit surprised. I didn’t press for more ‘tech’ support though as I was only curious anyway…

I definitely find it useful having the cadence data, especially using the trainer in ERG mode – then it’s the only kind of target I have really, the power just sorts itself out.

I had a fun one last night. I have a Kurt Kinetic RnR, and when I started the workout, it was MUCH harder than expected.

I checked the bike, turbo, tyre, with no luck. Then checked Trainer Road and the turbo trainer setting had reset to the top trainer in the list, so the power curve was completely wrong.

I’m getting a new turbo soon (Kickr) and was wondering if it’s useful to have a cadence sensor for TR or not.

Just got a Kickr – it had a cadence sensor in the box as a separate item – not set it up yet though.

Quite a few of the sweet spot trainer road sessions include cadance drills so for those it’d be useful (obviously). How much dedicated cadence drills are beneficial to a mountain biker I’m not sure about. While I’d love to spin up hills at 100rpm it just doesn’t seem to work as I generally spin at 85 (ish) and then spin up for short punchy climbs and the like.

having got a speed and cadence sensor to do the virtual power thing i was suprised at how slow my cadence was a lot of the time I seem to ride at about 70. On steady rides I’m going to see if I can keep a higher cadence and see if I notice a difference

Any recommended session for a day before race hour. I normally ride in the real world, gentle for 15 mins, hard for 15 mins, gentle for 1 with start sprints and then warm down. It looks like its going to be rank weather on Sat so I might just do it on the trainer.

Just got a Kickr – it had a cadence sensor in the box as a separate item – not set it up yet though.

That must be a new thing, or a special offer. i bought one about 3 months ago and didn’t get a cadence sensor.

Any recommended session for a day before race hour. I normally ride in the real world, gentle for 15 mins, hard for 15 mins, gentle for 1 with start sprints and then warm down.

For day before race I used the workout builder to create a session that was pretty much that (e.g. this).

having got a speed and cadence sensor to do the virtual power thing i was suprised at how slow my cadence was a lot of the time I seem to ride at about 70. On steady rides I’m going to see if I can keep a higher cadence and see if I notice a difference

Different people seem to have different natural cadences, which varies with power too. z2 I’ll spin around 90 to 95. Nearer threshold it tends to be around 85 to 90. Tends to be a bit quicker on the road, tends to be a bit slower on the mtb. Worth trying to ride at different cadences though and see what works best for you.

Any recommended session for a day before race hour.

I use Truuli-2 for this. 2 x 5 min FTP intervals and some sprints over 30 mins.

TR description is thus:

This priming workout for a time trial or road race is recommended 24 hours prior to your TT.

It includes 2×4-minute steady-state efforts @ FTP & two 90-second blowout efforts at 115-125% FTP.

Modifications: 30-minute version

can also confirm that a wahoo cadence sensor came with my Kickr (3weeks old from wiggle) – was separate in the box.

Havent used it yet my stages does the rpm

Thanks kryton, mrblobby, mrblobby, your one looks ideal 🙂