To say Scotland has had no influence in UK politics is idiotic e.g. the last PM and Chancellor were Scottish voted in from Scottish seats. If you didn’t like them and what they were doing for the constituency then why did you keep voting for them?

Now tell me that it wouldn’t have any effect on the rest of the UK!

Berm Bandit the Westminster parliament is for the whole of the UK,which currently includes Scotland. I have no problem with Scottish mps not having a vote on matters which do not affect Scotland- the West Lothian question. They have every right to vote on issues affecting the whole UK until Scots vote for independence.

But then the crux. How do you deliver that? When the no campaign (correctly IMO) picks holes in “the how”, this is very easy to portray as being negative and/or scaremongering. Its nothing of the sort, but that will not prevent this line of argument being used for the rest of the campaign.

They wont discuss devolution in advance and no one knows what will happen it is just negative and scare mongering – you wont be in the EU. you wont have the pound etc. Its not like the no campaign ever say anything positive or good about devolution is it.

Ditto, Salmond and Sturgeon are masters at playing the Westminster bully boys card.

Not exactly hard considering the tits in charge at westminsiter and the fact they keep bullying

His blatant opportunism and masquearding behind “Westminster bullies us”, grates south of the border * (

You probably need to be a Tory to think that like tbh
Everyone I know thinks Scotland should go it alone to free themselves from the influences of nefarious Tories and wish they could as well.

sorry ). That and the fact that after all this time,

he still hasn’t properly thought things through.

No one who disagrees with you ever has.

FWIW, I’m still trying to download the bloody White Paper. I’d like to know where all these well-informed posters above managed to get it so quickly.

White Paper also available here:

Scotland’s Future

The promises read like a labour budget, lots of promise, zero chance of being implemented without bankrupting the country.

The labour spending plans were matched by the Tories before the sub prime market in the USA collapsed causing as GLOBAL financial mess

LHS dont let the facts get in the way of a really weak tribal political point

The promises read like a labour budget, lots of promise, zero chance of being implemented without bankrupting the country.

I’m glad you’ve carried out a detailed fiscal spending and budgetary analysis. I’m now going to vote no. Thanks.

You probably need to be a Tory to think that like tbh

Everyone I know thinks Scotland should go it alone to free themselves from the influences of nefarious Tories and wish they could as well.

Hmmm. I know a few Scots who have very little time for Alex Salmond. See his cosying up to people like Donald Trump and Rupert Murdoch, for example.

My brother lives in Lochgoilhead and he says he says it’s reasonably split but probably the majority are against independence there. I don’t think it’s fair to characterise everyone who doesn’t like Alex Salmond as a Tory.

LHS – http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ramesh-patel/growth-cameron-austerity_b_2007552.html

Gosh JY how unusual for you to personalise things and this was a polite debate generally especially given the subject. But care to think a little bit about simple questions that have caught Salmond and Sturgeon out over the past few monts – or just hide behind the ad homs that you regularly accuse others of. Its self-parody now.

The manipulation of facts with the EU membership is funny though (from both sides). Look how the comments from Tenreiro were reported recently.

In a letter of reply, Mr Tenreiro said that whilst a change of treaties would be required – needing the approval of other members – that: “…as you say, it would of course be legally possible to re-negotiate the situation of UK and Scotland within the EU.”

Followed by a fuller quote in much smaller font which continues…

..of course this would imply a change of the Treatise which could only be done by unanimity from all Member States

A minor detail! Perhaps thats why the font was so small in the report on the website?!?

Well the “No side” probably played their trump card by outfoxing the “special one” on the actual vote. No vote for devo max and who is the smart one?

BB. I called you out on using a derogatory term. Either take on board the fact that many Scots find it offensive and stop using it, or come north, use the term freely and see how far your Scottish heritage excuse gets you.

Its not derogatory, its also a term that originated North of the border. You can of course choose to be offended by it if you wish, but personally I’d man up a bit, perhaps look for a more persuasive platform from which to make your point. Like I said …pot. kettle, black etc. Generally speaking you will find that us soft southern bedwetters hold you top hard northerners in much higher regard than you seem to imagine, and in the main the vitriole is a one way street…. (but not wishing to fall for bencoopers “Look out for the Sassenach bastard’s tricky double bluff manoeuvre” argument, lets leave it there eh?)

Berm Bandit the Westminster parliament is for the whole of the UK,which currently includes Scotland. I have no problem with Scottish mps not having a vote on matters which do not affect Scotland- the West Lothian question. They have every right to vote on issues affecting the whole UK until Scots vote for independence.

…and your point is caller? [to make it easy for you, what the point I was making was that in the forum that actually makes the decision (i.e. Westminster), on Scottish Independence, the Scottish electorate manifestly didn’t support the SNP, also that the removal of what some might see as Scottish common sense from the picture will have a substantial impact on UK politics). That is all.

I’m glad you’ve carried out a detailed fiscal spending and budgetary analysis. I’m now going to vote no. Thanks.

Do what you want, but as an independent observer its blatent fortune telling rather than well thought out budget balancing.

Berm Bandit – Member
Generally speaking you will find that us soft southern bedwetters hold you top hard northerners in much higher regard than you seem to imagine

+1

and in the main the vitriole is a one way street

+0.5 😉

Its not derogatory, its also a term that originated North of the border.

Aha, the “n***er isn’t racist because I hear black people using it” argument 😉

So Ben, was the late, great world champion John Thomas Wilson forced to use the “Jocky” name by those bullies down south?

Ditto Jock Stein… not that it has any relevance whatsoever, and can we please move on from it? I accept that you are right and I am an evil facist white anglo saxon racist git and that I intentionally made a slur on the sacred heritage of the Scottish people, however its getting boring now and can I move on and insult you in another way??

I see there’s a separate thread on this now!!!

Er… Jock is another name commonly used for people called John in Scotland. Not quite the same thing.

BB that is a truly awesome attempt to appear to make peace whilst hurling insults around

the peole you are aiming your “banter” at dont like it

Only a **** continues to do it or defends it in that manner:roll:

I don’t think it’s fair to characterise everyone who doesn’t like Alex Salmond as a Tory.

There are no Tories in Scotland 😉 the context was South of the Border

how unusual for you to personalise things

can you highlight the bit where i did this and have you read the rest of what you put ? Oh the ironing

I replied to your post I did nothing personal – re read what you wrote and please refrain. I get this every time I reply to you and you actually blame me for it. Its nothing personal sometimes I just disagree with you. I am not doing the personal shit nor have I here.

Can I just take us back a page to BenCoopers flag?

I do think that as Wales is now officially a country, and not merely a “principality”, that it deserves a place on the new EWNI flag.

Yeh right?!?

I think I would prefer to ignore your nonsense, its easier all round and less tiring. Don’t bother reading your last quote and retort above.

Nope I’m not making peace. I actually think its an entirely false premise and a very poor attempt to bypass the original point. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

PS: a bit rich coming from you JY.

New, improved rUK flag:

http://www.easyweb.co.uk/2012/10/ruk-flag/

Like I said …pot. kettle, black etc

Ah yes, totally forgot about the bit where I referred to an entire nation using a derogatory term. 🙄

Life’s too short. Crack on Berm Bandit.

Interesting data from the ONS (summarised by the BBC):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266

If correct, 10-20% of Scotland’s tax revenue is from oil and gas, compared with 1.5% for the UK as a whole. Becoming independent could therefore leave Scotland massively exposed to volatility in the price of oil and gas, and of course the significant shortfall needs to be taken up when tax revenue declines as the resource runs out. I don’t see any other industry (or combination thereof) covering this shortfall, but perhaps the white paper outlines this.

but perhaps the white paper outlines this.

It does. GDP is pretty much the same if you discount oil, it’s when you add in oil that Scotland’s GDP pulls ahead of the rest of the UK.

Oil is a nice bonus, not an economic necessity.

the point I was making was that in the forum that actually makes the decision (i.e. Westminster), on Scottish Independence,
Just plain wrong Berm Bandit the result of the referendum is binding on westminster.
As for voting differently in different elections, you could argue many reasons for that.

And the rest of the analysis shows that the tax-take/GDP of iScotland is roughly equal to that of the rest of the UK. So, whereas in a “good” year, tax from oil and gas might add 20% to that, in a bad year it might only be 1 or 2%. Are you suggesting that having 18% extra some years is a bad thing?

Life’s too short. Crack on Berm Bandit.

Actually, I’ve just reread the OP, and I’m going to hold my hands up and accept the point regarding Jocks. 😳

I can see how that can be seen as perjorative. It was not the intent, and when viewed from my perspective and as intended it did not seem to me to be so. However, online and not knowing my background or where I’m coming from I can see how it could be misconstrued as such.

Apologies for that unintentional error.

I think I would prefer to ignore your nonsense,

Even in ignoring me you have to have a dig.
I have not had any digs at you I have only replied to you without insults and you chose, wisely, to not even try and quote an insult from me in my reply.

You seem incapable of stopping yourself so perhaps its for the best?

BB Respect

Just plain wrong Berm Bandit the result of the referendum is binding on westminster.

The decision to hold a binding referendum on Independance was made at Westminster. Until the referendum is held and subject to a yes vote Westminster retains ultimate control. That being the case not putting an SNP/Independance bum on a Westminster seat and instead returning a vast majority of Labour MP’s can’t really be construed as a sweeping vote in favour of independance surely?.

If Alex Salmond achieves independence for Scotland, will there be a film and will he be played by Mel Gibson?

Scotroutes – isn’t the real issue the volatility in the price of oil? Lets say Scotland is independent with its own currency. So therice of oil goes up. Great more tax revenue. But what happens to the currency. It goes up as well. And the impact on Scottish manufacturing? In the UK case, the rise in the price of oil contributed to sterling rising from $1.60 to $2.40 In the 70s with a very negative impact on UK manufacturing and employment.

As Gavin McCrone puts it in hIs excellent analysis of all the independence issues – “in effect the tax revenue from the NS ended up paying for the resulting unemployment.”

It will be interesting to read how today’s paper tackles this vulnerability and what flesh if any is put on the idea of a future fund. Leaving aside the folly of all govs failing to set up an oil fund, if Scotland chose to do that upon independence it would have to find other measures to tackle its deficit – higher taxes or lower spending both of which will be unpopular and would lead to higher unemployment.

In the past, the Scottish gov has said that it would set up a fund when “fiscal conditions allow” which is fair enough but that could be a considerable time.

McCrone also raises the interesting idea of the Shetlanders opting to stay part of the union even if the rest of Scotland chose otherwise which is interesting if unlikely (?)

slowjo – Member

If Alex Salmond achieves independence for Scotland, will there be a film and will he be played by Mel Gibson?

Ken Stott.

NW – did you see my question on “foreign” 😉 students? Do you have the inside track?

McCrone also raises the interesting idea of the Shetlanders opting to stay part of the union even if the rest of Scotland chose otherwise which is interesting if unlikely (?)

I remember reading (I have no idea where now) a journalist putting this proposition to Alec and asking how that would affect Scotland’s economic viability. On the premise that virtually all NS Oil falls in the Shetlands/Hebrides territorial waters not the Scottish mainland’s.

As I recall (and I’m simplifying here but not much) his reply was, ‘Well they can’t – they’re part of Scotland.’

Doesn’t this somewhat fly in the face of his ‘Scotland should be allowed to decide if it wants to be independant’ mantra?

his reply was, ‘Well they can’t – they’re part of Scotland.’

They bloody well can if they want to. I’m absolutely in favour of self determination and if Scotland want to be independent I wish them all the luck in the world. Salmond cannot deny the Shetlanders independence or to remain in the UK if they want to. It would make him a massive hypocrite and smash his credibility.

I’m a Scottish-surnamed, Scottish-heritage, Welsh-born, Welsh-speaking, English-parented, English-dweller.

I’ve lived in all 4 of the Home Countries and there’s far more that we share than we don’t.

Logic aside: it would seem a real shame from a cultural, familial and modern historical point of view – and make me sad – if the UK of Britain should fall apart like this. 🙁

Pretty much nobody apart from Tavish Scott, the LibDem MSP, thinks Shetland should become independent from an independent Scotland.

Well, it is quite an interesting side debate. Guess what? According to McCrones book, “The Centralising tendencies (sound familiar?) of Scottish governments since devolution are not welcome in the islands and Shetland is conscious of the advantages it’s neighbours, the Faroe islands, have as a dependency of Denmark rather than an integral part of the Danish state.”