This Scottish Business

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  • This Scottish Business
  • Berm Bandit
    Member

    Just been listening to the launch of the SNP’s white paper on independence and a number of issues have come to mind.

    1) Currency: they want to keep the pound as is. Surely this ties them into the UK in the most profound way by inextricably linking their economy to the rest of us, which is surely why they want independance in the first place isn’t it??
    2) Votes: How come jocks living anywhere in the world can vote except those living in the UK outside of Scotland? i.e. someone in Beijing can but someone in Birmingham can’t …… whats that about?
    3) The impact on the rest of us: The penny has only just dropped as to why Call me Dave is so keen on the referendum. i.e. if they go so will a large number of Labour MP’s, and it will profoundly change the future shape of the UK Politics…… in his favour surprisingly.

    So the question is: Given that the Scots and the rest of us are really deeply intertwined, for example I’m 50% Scot 50% Cumbrian, or in my local there are at least 25% Jocks who are regulars, which I very much doubt is particularly strange, and that this decision will deeply effect all of us regardless of which side of the border we are on, how come we don’t all get a vote? (The obvious it doesn’t suit Dave’s purposes answers apart).

    Discuss

    allthepies
    Member

    Berm wrote:

    3) The impact on the rest of us: The penny has only just dropped as to why Call me Dave is so keen on the referendum. i.e. if they go so will a large number of Labour MP’s, and it will profoundly change the future shape of the UK Politics…… in his favour surprisingly.

    CMD doesn’t want the union split up.

    STW Disclaimer: I know, he’s evil and is lying, yadda yadda…

    winston_dog
    Member

    This will not end well.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    Some expat discussion on this recently went along the lines of the snp have been like a student with a credit card. Give them a couple of years and it’s another Greece.

    bencooper
    Member

    Are France and Germany not independent because they share a currency?

    slowjo
    Member

    Gerrymandering on a vast scale. CMD gets away with the big one….maybe.

    Premier Icon davetrave
    Subscriber

    how come we don’t all get a vote?

    Because it’s not the UK (Westminster) government organising the referendum Graham. In the same way a broader referendum that voted in favour of independence would benefit the Tories by disposing of a whole bunch of Labour MPs in one fell swoop, Salmond is similarly hoping that by allowing only those north of the border to vote he can get the result he wants.

    On an another note, by a strange quirk, despite being an Englishman, I’ll get to vote in the referendum as I now reside in Scotland, unlike those Scots who live in England. Which does seem a bit strange to me that for whatever reason, a whole bunch of people who may vote in Salmond’s favour are being excluded…

    Premier Icon teamhurtmore
    Subscriber

    BB,

    I think (1) is an understatement and actually reflects how poorly thought out the SNPs policies are. It’s worse than merely tying in. It’s giving up control over monetary ploy which will be set according to the interests of the rest of the UK not Scotland. Bizarre thinking and contradictory.

    slowjo
    Member

    This thread is beginning to look like a Timber Old Timer’s thread so far! Hi Dave…how’s thing with you?

    bencooper
    Member

    On an another note, by a strange quirk, despite being an Englishman, I’ll get to vote in the referendum as I now reside in Scotland, unlike those Scots who live in England. Which does seem a bit strange to me that for whatever reason, a whole bunch of people who may vote in Salmond’s favour are being excluded…

    No, that makes perfect sense – you live here, you get a say. People who don’t live here don’t get a say. It’s the fairest way to do it, otherwise you get into complicated discussions on what being “Scottish” really means, and what percentage Scottish you have to be to have a say.

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    On an another note, by a strange quirk, despite being an Englishman, I’ll get to vote in the referendum as I now reside in Scotland, unlike those Scots who live in England. Which does seem a bit strange to me that for whatever reason, a whole bunch of people who may vote in Salmond’s favour are being excluded…

    Same position here.
    I have to say, the longer I live up here (having had two stints living in Scotland), the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.
    I am undecided yet – part of me thinks ‘why not, let us give it a go’, but the more rational part of me thinks ‘more devolved powers please’.
    Part of my issue is that the economical argument is as clear as mud. I think there are clear cultural and governance reasons to be independent – but I cannot work out the financial side. One thing I do know is that at some point the Westminster Gov. will meddle with the Barnett Formula – and I do not trust them not to do a Maggie Thatcher on Scotland…

    Premier Icon oldnpastit
    Subscriber

    That Nicola Sturgeon was on R4 this morning tying herself in knots over Sterling.

    They’ve clearly realised that their policy on currency makes absolutely no sense, and they’re hoping that if they just blather enough that no-one will notice.

    That’s probably why their report is so enormous as well – never mind the quality, feel the weight.

    EDIT: they should just say that if all else fails, they will setup a new currency. At least then they would be credible.

    JEngledow
    Member

    how come we don’t all get a vote?

    I’ve been asking that one too, but still haven’t heard a decent answer!

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Independence for Scotlandshire, eh?

    OK, off you toddle. Toodle-pip. 😉

    winston_dog
    Member

    complicated discussions on what being “Scottish” really means

    How does the that work with the Scots who are overseas and get to vote then?

    fasthaggis
    Member

    1) Currency: they want to keep the pound as is.

    I have noticed a lot of salt mountains recently,I think this will be the new currency of choice for Scotland

    2) Votes: How come jocks living anywhere in the world can vote except those living in the UK outside of Scotland? i.e. someone in Beijing can but someone in Birmingham can’t …… whats that about?

    Well ,any sweaty sock living across in Beijing is obviously riding that global economy wave and needs to be retained in case he or she wants to invest in the homeland.The ones that picked Birmingham are already lost

    3) The impact on the rest of us: The penny has only just dropped as to why Call me Dave is so keen on the referendum. i.e. if they go so will a large number of Labour MP’s, and it will profoundly change the future shape of the UK Politics.

    I think the main impact on us all will be the price rises of shortbread and whisky .

    Having said that,whatever way it goes,I am sure it will all be fine.

    HTH

    bencooper
    Member

    One thing I do know is that at some point the Westminster Gov. will meddle with the Barnett Formula – and I do not trust them not to do a Maggie Thatcher on Scotland…

    Oh, that’s a certainty – the ConDem-dominated Local Government Association has already said that they want Barnett scrapped, and various a Welsh politicians are jumping on that too. Vote No, and the punishment for daring to oppose Westminster begins.

    While we’re talking about money, what about the £120M that the EU gave for Scottish farmers that Westminster has just pinched? Even Scottish Tories think that should go to Scotland.

    bencooper
    Member

    I’ve been asking that one too, but still haven’t heard a decent answer!

    Do you live in Scotland? No? Then why on earth should you have a say on it?

    How does the that work with the Scots who are overseas and get to vote then?

    I thought ex-pats were being excluded?

    slowjo
    Member

    the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.

    I don’t think they have much idea what is going on anywhere outside London and care even less. On the local news last night Vince Cable was portrayed doing the rounds of off-shore wind farms off the East coast. He said he was shocked to hear that the turbines were not made in the UK. How astounding is that?

    Extending the Scottish independence argument on the premise that the Gov’t are out of touch could arguably be taken to the provinces. Resurrection of the Dane Law Graham? I’d vote for you!

    bencooper
    Member

    The bit I don’t get is why so many English people are anti-independence – usually the same people who make comments about “sweaty Jocks”. Is it an inferiority complex thing? Scotland should go down with the sinking ship?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Berm Bandit – Member

    1) Currency: they want to keep the pound as is. Surely this ties them into the UK in the most profound way by inextricably linking their economy to the rest of us, which is surely why they want independance in the first place isn’t it??

    I think the entire Eurozone will be surprised to hear they’re basically one country.

    Our economies will always be tied- in fact, for the forseeable future they’ll be essentially the same. They’ll diverge over time no doubt but it’ll be a long time (if ever) before there’s any fundamental divides and over that sort of timescale, there’s room for further change.

    I mentioned this in another thread but it bears repeating, the supposed downsides of retaining the pound (in whichever form) is that Scotland ends up using a currency that’s run from England with little regard to the Scottish economy. So, the same as it is today then. To be told we should fear change because the worst case scenario is that we end up with the status quo is eye-opening…

    winston_dog
    Member

    comments about “sweaty Jockssocks”

    FTFY

    I lived for 6 years in Scotland. There was a distinct minority who were very anti-English. I saw discrimination against English people in the workplace.

    The Scots of the Central Belt who hang on to some “Braveheart” view of independence with a 2nd Celtic Tiger economy are deluded.

    Even the loss of the MoD/Faslane jobs will have a massive effect. Good secure jobs, with pensions etc. replaced with call centres and warehousing.

    Premier Icon mucker
    Subscriber

    The very fact that some people south of the border seem to think that they should have the right to have a vote on whether they want Scotland to remain part of the UK, is a very salient part of the reason Scotland should try to escape from Englands colonialist attitude to all other nations.

    bencooper
    Member

    It’s also interesting that expert opinion seems to have shifted towards the idea that an independent Scotland would still have a seat at the table with Sterling – it could well be a condition of Scotland taking a share of the national debt.

    piemonster
    Member

    The very fact that some people south of the border

    Racist 😛

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    Maybe they will bail us out like the banks? 😉

    grum
    Member

    The bit I don’t get is why so many English people are anti-independence

    Well, there’s the fact that we will probably be doomed to a Tory government forever. That’s quite a biggie.

    the more I see that Westminster is not in touch with this place and how to run it.

    Same applies to everywhere outside the home counties. Scotland actually already gets a much better deal than the north of England, for example.

    piemonster
    Member

    I’m still voting yes btw

    If only to get away from the Conservatives

    Premier Icon franksinatra
    Subscriber

    [/quote]2) Votes: How come jocks living anywhere in the world can vote except those living in the UK outside of Scotland? i.e. someone in Beijing can but someone in Birmingham can’t …… whats that about?

    I don’ think that is right is it? If it is it will be so our great Scottish patriot, Sir Sean Connery can be flown back from tax exile and wheeled out during the independence campaign to wave a flag for ‘Schotland’

    dragon
    Member

    If only to get away from the Conservatives

    But instead be like Ireland, awesome choice dude.

    khani
    Member

    Genuine Q so dont kill me, What about education fees and the NHS and social security funding?
    Personally I’m not that bothered either way but is it actualy proper independence or semi independence?
    Forgive me if that’s a bit thick…

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    Scotland actually already gets a much better deal than the north of England, for example.

    Indeed, but Scotland and North, Midlands and East England get less than South West, London and NI.
    And those figures do not include defence spending; or take account of tax income generation.
    But I just cannot find clarity on it.

    Premier Icon davetrave
    Subscriber

    Resurrection of the Dane Law Graham? I’d vote for you!

    By his own admission, not a natural East Anglian, would he be allowed to have a part in an independent Anglia…?!

    Living in Elgin these days John, currently doing a monthly commute from there to Surrey, until Christmas, then the 12 month countdown to discharge begins – hurrah!

    I’ve been asking that one too, but still haven’t heard a decent answer!

    Do you live in Scotland? No? Then why on earth should you have a say on it?

    Presumably those who ask that question do so because independence would have a significant effect on the rest of the countries of the union. Whether that’s a legitimate basis to include the whole of the UK or not is another question, but hey, let’s face it this is all about vested interests – those of Salmond and those of Cameron…

    How does the that work with the Scots who are overseas and get to vote then?

    I thought ex-pats were being excluded?

    Ex-pats are not excluded – check the Electoral Commission website. Presumably the defintion of Scottishness allowing somebody to vote would be based on birthplace or some other simple criteria, but probably not…

    whatnobeer
    Member

    What about education fees

    Well, if Scotland was independent then students from down south wouldn’t have to pay fee’s like they do now as they’d be part of Europe and so get a free ride there.

    he NHS

    The NHS in Scotland is already run separate from the NHS England. I suspect not a lot would change and the two sides would just bill each other for any care services used on the other side of the border. If that can’t be worked out you’d still be covered by the standard type of agreement that stands between the rest of Europe as it does now.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    grum – Member

    Well, there’s the fact that we will probably be doomed to a Tory government forever. That’s quite a biggie.

    IIRC there were only 2 elections since the war that were decided by the scottish vote? (plus the last one which I think would have been a Tory win outright, though tbh that’d make no actual difference since the Lib Dems all turned out to be tories in disguise)

    The other side of this is that labour pitch at the whole country whereas the Tories have become pretty much an English party with a small interest in Wales and bugger all in Scotland. Take away Scotland and Labour could change their message and target the rest of the uk better.

    Premier Icon richmtb
    Subscriber

    It’s giving up control over monetary ploy which will be set according to the interests of the rest of the UK not Scotland.

    Unlike the current system where the monetary policy is set according to the interests of London you mean?

    piemonster
    Member

    But instead be like Ireland, awesome choice dude.

    A risk worth taking tbh

    Omar Little
    Member

    I dont think ex-pats living abroad do have a vote?

    This is the criteria i think.

    -British citizens resident in Scotland.
    -Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland.
    -Citizens of EU countries resident in Scotland.
    -Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
    -Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

    Seems fair enough. An English person choosing to live in Scotland ought to have a greater say in the direction the country goes than a Scot who has chosen to live elsewhere, either in England or overseas. That doesnt make them lesser Scots just that voting rights should be based on residency rather than ethnicity.

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