You can keep try molgrips, I don’t think he will get it though!!!

That is the main issue across gender and race, a lot of white men don’t get it and if white men don’t get it and don’t want to change things then nothing is going to change very quickly.

The easiest response is just “well maybe they (insert race or gender) just don’t want to do it”

@Bedmaker, isn’t the question why do they want to do different things? Is it ‘genetic’ as someone suggests, or is it because society expects them to like different things. I know my mother-in-law doesn’t understand why the wife took up riding and isn’t that impressed that my 2 year old loves her bikes more than her toys.

They might not have been subject to conscious bias from society but it’s there. The same as a lot of my friends and colleagues Donna understand why my wife went back to work after having twins and I chose to stay at home (or at least go very very very part time) to look at them. No other guys at work would even consider this because ‘it’s not the normal thing’ ( and I work in a job that is 50:50 male and female and there is no gender bias from a work point of view).

Personally I think it’s more about social norms and expectations rather than a biological cause. And us (as parents) are the people that can help change this.

But what do I know as a 40 year old guy? If any women on here who have first hand experience think otherwise I’m inclined to believe them.

We’re going to experiment with our boy/girl twins and expose them to the same things and try not to push any gender stereotypes (if we can) on either of them and see what happens.

That is one of the brilliant videos I watched with my seven year old daughter, Amber; she really likes anything like that and loves watching the Sophie / Lyon vids and anything with girls / females having fun on bikes.

Opportunity and exposure to mtb is a big issue.

This in a nutshell! It is a lot easier to imagine yourself doing stuff, if you see other’s who look like you, doing it too. 15 years ago I started biking, encouraged by my PhD supervisor (and in an act of rebelion against an ex bf who restricted my love of the outdoors!), and in doing so met p20 who loved bikes and exposed me too it further, could advise on stuff, show me how to ride features and mend my bike! There was one other regular lady as part of our group, but really she was one of very few female mtb’ers who I knew. It really has been only in the last 5 years that the profile of female riders has had a lot more exposure (e.g. womens riding videos on YouTube etc), more womens only events have cropped up etc etc, that for many more girls and woman can see that riding can be for them. Even for an ‘old timer’ like me I still regularly remark on how great it is to see more womans groups/events/videos etc. For 7-year olds like Amber, this is brilliant as it already is becoming more normal, and the growth of womens cycling with hopefully continue to increase. I have already thanked STW mag a lot for what they do to promote woman’s cycling. Whereas even now you can pick up some months issues of some of the highstreet mags you find in WHSmith and see no woman at all in it!

The easiest response is just “well maybe they (insert race or gender) just don’t want to do it”

Exactly. The most common counter to the police shootings of black people I see in the comments is ‘well maybe if they did what they were told they wouldn’t get shot’. An easy way to blame others and never have to admit you were wrong.

Anyway. It’s extremely difficult to unpick nature Vs nurture. Active suppression is easy to spot, but social conditioning is much harder. If people are conditioned not to want to do the thing, then they’ll never take it up matter how many how many times it’s offered in later life. But that might be simply because at age 2 all they saw was men riding bikes and women riding horses.

Question everything. Social conditioning is everywhere in life and is perpetuated by the thought or suggestion that ‘maybe girls just don’t like it’. Maybe we will never get 50/50 participation – fine, but what you must never do is ASSUME a girl isn’t going to like something just because only 20% of the people doing it are girls.

Molgrips

But why?

As you say a million and one reasons (sic). I didn’t get to play rugby until Uni… turned out I rather enjoyed it (as a team sport)

there are loads of things I’m interested in (e.g. martial arts, to name one) that I could have done. But I was never really exposed to those things, I didn’t know where to start, I didn’t know other people who did them, so I never did.

I spent most of my teenage years doing martial arts and meeting (girls) there… I’m being a bit glib because really it was just about meeting people there though probably the ratio wasn’t far off 50/50. Certainly the club disco’s would have been less interesting if they weren’t.

I got dragged into roady stuff through Toni . short for Antoinette (which was a very exotic name in NE lancs in the 80’s)

My point is that the environment in which you grown up has a huge effect on what you end up doing – because you do the things that you can ‘see yourself’ doing. And if people of either gender don’t ‘see themselves’ doing it then they wont.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don’t want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there’s no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

My son’s mother, uncle and aunt grew up in the same house with the same family.
His aunt does any and every endurance/adrenaline sport on the planet… his mother and uncle nothing. (Camping on an organised campsite is an extreme sport for her)

All of them grew up in the countryside, next to a mountain and forests… but aunt was 10yrs younger. You can ride from their parents home to the ski/bike uplift without going on a road.

When he was younger Jnr used to try and get his mum to come with us, he still would but she just doesn’t want to. We just booked the summer hols and he was still trying to get his mum to do something other than “lie on a beach” .. he’d like to Windsurf/surf and take the bikes out and beaches for us mean snorkelling or cliff diving .. his mum wants a sunbed and sand.

A lot of upset later we are doing sunbed and sand because nothing could get her on any sort of holiday we’d enjoy. Couple of years ago we met the Aunt in Ibiza and we spent our time on bikes/snorkelling and wind surfing/cliff jumping with his mums sister but we had to put up with a lot of unpleasantness due to him trying to get his mum to come along.

You run the risk of assuming that because female participation is low, that means that women just don’t want to. But there are many reasons not to assume that, if you just think about it a bit. As a cycling male assuming there’s no problem with female participation could be considered as sexism or at least gender issue blindness.

Yes because her usual excuse (women don’t do that) was shattered by having her little sister along and her saying very unkind things to her sister.

In other words its not because I or he are male or have expectations of what is a male/female activity. Probably 1/2 his MTB mates are girls… most of the mums come along… Rachel and Becci are his hero’s… no idea why not Tahnee ???

His mum is in my opinion sexist but apparently not because being female she’s allowed to have an opinion on what women can and can’t do???? I’m sexist because ..erm I have a penis.

But what do I know as a 40 year old guy?

Presumably you know all about it, because you’re claiming society has brainwashed you into liking boring old biking when your real interests should be cross stitch, and reading chicklit or shopping or choosing scented candles or doing dance routines or whatever else it is you think society has brainwashed you out of wanting to do.

Or does gender brainwashing only work on women because men have the strength of character and wisdom to resist the brainwashing? If so, shouldn’t we all be over on mumsnet mansplaining to them that they’re interested in the wrong stuff and typically male interests are the ‘correct’ interests?

I have a son and a daughter. We leave any gender roles completely out of it and always have. All the toys are in one big lump and they can play with whatever they want. We don’t tell them what to watch on youtube. Yet you’d know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn’t been brainwashed, it’s his nature.

Lots of girls rode bikes when I was about 5-7. By age 11 there were none, by age 16 I was the only one (boy or girl) riding bikes for fun and to get around. For the rest it wasn’t cool.

In our MTB club in 2005-2010 there were about 2 regular girls/women compared to about 10 regular blokes and a lot or irregular (in every sense) ones. The girls were treated no differently to the rest as far as I was aware.

2010 – 2012 roadie club there were no girls.

2012 onwards I’ve ridden solo for the most part, but there are currently substantially more ladies riding than there were even 2 years ago. It’s a great thing.

My Wife will NOT ride a bike. I have had her out on the bike a couple of times but she doesn’t enjoy it. She doesn’t like the faff, the motion, the need to remember to do things at certain times (brakes, gears, etc). I wish it were different, but hey ho. My daughter (3.5) likes her bike, but likes climbing more.

Question to any ladies (or anyone that can answer I suppose) – from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this? I don’t spend much time in the drops as it hurts my lower back over a long period and only tend to do it into a headwind or when descending.

Maybe these women aren’t so hung up on looking “pro” and hence ride a bike that actually fits them.

Or maybe they don’t have a beer gut getting in the way.

Or does gender brainwashing only work on women because men have the strength of character and wisdom to resist the brainwashing?

I dunno about anyone of the other men in my life but I learned the most about this topic from talking to actual women – my mum and my wife. And reading about it. But yes, it does apply to men as well. For example, my Dad wasn’t into football. If he had been, there’s a good chance I would be too.

from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this?

It is more common in women to have longer arms relative to torso, I think.

We leave any gender roles completely out of it and always have.

Yes, but society doesn’t. It’s what they see going on around them, not just what you do as parents. I like to watch cycling, so there’s lots of men riding bikes on telly. I do watch women’s cycling when it’s on but it’s not on a lot is it?

Do you watch motor sport? How many women doing that? How many lovely ladies standing by handing out prizes? What’s a 3 year old going to take from that?

Yet you’d know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn’t been brainwashed, it’s his nature.

Sample size of 1. No-one’s saying that boys AREN’T going to like traditional boy things. But the point I am trying in vain to make is that some girls will like them too and not all boys will like them. So don’t assume.

But yes, it does apply to men as well.

So why are you still riding bikes? If it’s just something society has brainwashed you into just stop and get on with what you *really* want to do.

Do you watch motor sport? How many women doing that?

Yes regularly at grass roots level and I take my daughter and there are always women drivers and I always make sure my daughter actually talks to them so she can see women are participating. (I don’t believe brainwashing works in this context but I’m willing to try it!)

But the question isn’t why aren’t women interested in Motorsport, I can’t help that, what I can do is help *you* give up the boring stuff society makes you interested in like Motorsport and bikes and get into the things you really *want* to do. Like, craft and dancing and interior design.

I dunno about anyone of the other men in my life but I learned the most about this topic from talking to actual women – my mum and my wife. And reading about it. But yes, it does apply to men as well. For example, my Dad wasn’t into football. If he had been, there’s a good chance I would be too.

My Dad loved football and cricket… it was on the TV every bloody weekend. Hence why I got into cycling and outdoors stuff to get away from it.

I like to watch cycling, so there’s lots of men riding bikes on telly. I do watch women’s cycling when it’s on but it’s not on a lot is it?

You’re obviously not watching our TV…
Priority for womens DH (not as fussed if I overhear the mens results) Red Bull letting the womens result slip before we watch is a bloody disaster! ALWAYS watch womens first… end to end then probably skip part of the mens..

Red Bull letting the womens result slip before we watch is a bloody disaster!

A couple of years back I imagine it was quite hard to do live commentary on the runs of the male Hannah, Atherton and Seagrave sibling without mentioning their sisters performance an hour or two before

from my anecdotal evidence, women do seems to spend much more time in the drops than men do. Why is this?

If you didn’t watch professional riding, and you had never seen a drop bar bike before, where is the obvious place to put your hands so as to best operate the brakes and shifters (especially if it’s not the massive horns of the newest hydro sti lever).

Couple that with shorter fingers and a weaker grip.

My dad was indifferent towards football. I hate it, middle brother is indifferent and youngest brother is a fanatic. My son is a fanatic. He is also, all of a sudden fanatical about F1 too. No idea where that came from; I love rallying and Moto-x and think F1 is the height of tedium. So where does that put us all on the nature/nurture scale?

He used to love mountain biking too but the last couple of times he went was because he was grounded and I’m buggered if I’m giving up my weekend because he’s in trouble. He actually enjoyed it every time it happened but he still wouldn’t go voluntarily.

Adding the motorsport bit into this, and another massive generalisation…
But women tend not to be as interested in machines (although I know a few female F1 fans and some blokes who hate it)
I wonder if it might be the mechanical aspect of bikes putting some off?
I know quite a few female riders, some of them very, very good, but by and large their fathers/boyfriends/husbands do the mechanicing for them. Not all, but most, the vast majority. Why? Most blokes do their own spannering (again, not all and some are totally inept at it but by and large they do, certainly amongst ‘proper’ bikers)
Remove the ‘tinkering with machines’ bit and you are left with running or, if you still want to ride, horses, both of which have far more female participants.
Whether enjoying, or even being good at (which probably stems from enjoying and therefore practicing and getting better at) tinkering with machines is nature or nurture takes us back to where we started.
.
Also, if you cant sort your own mechanicals on your own in the middle of nowhere you are probably less likely to go riding alone, and therefore maybe take up running since you dont have to wait for someone to go with you.

So why are you still riding bikes? If it’s just something society has brainwashed you into just stop and get on with what you *really* want to do.

This is getting stupid.

Here’s a better question – why didn’t I take up rugby? I’d probably have been a much better winger or flanker than I am a cyclist.

Why didn’t I take up surfing?

Why didn’t I take up motorsport?

Why am I not an artist?

Why am I not in a band?

But women tend not to be as interested in machines

Gordon Bennet, it’s like talking to a wall.

I wonder if it might be the mechanical aspect of bikes putting some off?

maybe in MTB.

Road bikes, punctures aside, are largely set and forget. MTB on the otherhand…

When I started mtb I was so inept and scared of braking something that I paid a shop to top up my tyre sealant. But in the years since I’ve gradually learnt more and more, to the point where I do most things myself.
Personally I now see the fixing, and things like suspension set up, as part of the sport.
But if society had conditioned me that I shouldn’t be getting my hands metaphorically dirty, maybe I would still be turning to dad/hubby/shop to perform basic tasks?

For all the excellent biking female role models we have now, have you ever seen a woman in a maintainence tutorial video, or the author of a technical* article? (*as in repair, not riding technique)

Here’s a better question – why didn’t I take up rugby? I’d probably have been a much better winger or flanker than I am a cyclist.

Why didn’t I take up surfing?

Why didn’t I take up motorsport?

Why am I not an artist?

Why am I not in a band?

I would imagine a variety of different reasons.

My answers:

I did.
No waves in the UK.
No money.
Art is boring.
Too lazy to learn to play music.

There certainly wasn’t a societal conspiracy to make me not like them.

Are you really trying to prove you’ve been brainwashed into liking biking on the basis of your gender by listing a load of other stuff you aren’t interested in?

So where does that put us all on the nature/nurture scale?

Nurture doesn’t just come from you or his family. Maybe his friends are into the things you are not and maybe he puts more into what his friends are interested in that you.
I think I probably shared one thing in common with my dad and that was fixing mechanical stuff, everything else we were polar opposites (politics, sports, other activities).
My politics and sports interests came from my friends or more likely I mixed with people who were similar to me so must have had some of that already.

There certainly wasn’t a societal conspiracy to make me not like them.

I’m not saying there is a conspiracy.

I’m saying that little kids absorb what’s around them. You don’t have to TELL girls that only boys ride bikes – if they only see boys riding bikes then they’ll infer it’s a boy’s thing. Little girls will go to the ‘girls’ aisle at the toyshop because they think ‘yay this stuff is for me, that other stuff isn’t’. The shops don’t conspire to prevent girls from liking action figures and cars – they do this because it helps them sell more stuff.

Little kids infer like this all the time – older kids and adults are more aware but they still do it, it’s just not as obvious. It’s not enough to just not say anything and let them get on with it – you have to actively parent against it. My daughter came home upset one day from school in probably year 0 or 1 because one of the boys had told her she shouldn’t like Star Wars (FFS) because it’s a boy thing. She was upset because we’d already told her that girls can like anything they want and the boy was going against what we’d told her.

The reason I didn’t get into rugby or surfing was because it wasn’t presented as an option – like you, I’d only seen surfing on telly in California or Hawaii so I didn’t think it was something I could ever do. Of course, surfing is quite popular in the UK and there are plenty of waves.

Are you really trying to prove you’ve been brainwashed into liking biking on the basis of your gender by listing a load of other stuff you aren’t interested in?

No mate, I’m trying to demonstrate that we get into the things to which we’re exposed, and which we see people like us doing. This isn’t at all controversial I’ve no idea what the hell you are arguing about.

Here’s another one – why is India (one of the largest countries in the world and completely sport mad) so utterly shit at football, in terms of national team world rankings?

So where does that put us all on the nature/nurture scale?

If you decide it’s 100pc nurture then all that would prove is it’s in our nature to nurture in a certain way. If you think it’s all nurture there wasn’t ever a global meeting to decide we’d regard genders as sometimes slightly different so it just comes from our nature.

We’re a bunch of mammals even if we don’t like that.

I think having babies/young kids really opens your mind to how animal like we are. I didnt nurture my kids to each want whatever the other one has. I guess in nature if a sibling didn’t demand/steal any resource offered to the other sibling they died from lack of resource so kids evolved to do just that. (Seeing it right now in bird’s nests.)

A couple of years back I imagine it was quite hard to do live commentary on the runs of the male Hannah, Atherton and Seagrave sibling without mentioning their sisters performance an hour or two before

LOL .. didn’t mean that.. Warner does get excited…
I meant going to the Red Bull Site and already having posted “Watch Rachel’s winning run” as the title whilst trying to find the full stream..

If you decide it’s 100pc nurture then all that would prove is it’s in our nature to nurture in a certain way. If you think it’s all nurture there wasn’t ever a global meeting to decide we’d regard genders as sometimes slightly different so it just comes from our nature.

That’s a side point though. Whatever the percentage of nature or nurture, you can’t assume that all kids of the same gender are going to have similar nature (obviously) and we are absolutely sure they don’t all get the same nurture experience growing up.

I’m saying that little kids absorb what’s around them. You don’t have to TELL girls that only boys ride bikes – if they only see boys riding bikes then they’ll infer it’s a boy’s thing.

Personally I think that’s bollocks because in early life there’s no gender difference – girls and boys both all have bikes and ride them. Girls lose interest later.

However, let’s assume you’re right. We come back to the fact that you’re claiming to be into biking because you regard biking as a boys sport. It’s a trick society has played on you. SO STOP!!!!

you can’t assume that all kids of the same gender are going to have similar nature

Yup, you certainly can’t, but good luck advertising razor blades on the “Love Island” commercial break.

When I was at school I believed I didn’t like all sport as I was only exposed to the standard PE set and didn’t like any of them. It didn’t really cross my mind that there were other options as I didn’t see any around me. So I took up dancing as it was the only alternative given and enjoyed it. When I got to university there were lots of people saying you can do any sport you like and here are all these options so I took up kayaking and enjoyed it. My friends saw me doing it and tried it too. Later another friend took up mountain biking and took me along, guess what that’s fun too and so is climbing. Turns out I do like sport just not the ones I was shown as a child.

As molegrips is saying its about being exposed to these things and being able to see that it could be something to try. If I hadn’t seen enthusiastic others saying I could try that then I would have easily fitted into the category of well she’s a girl so she likes dancing and wouldn’t want to get wet and muddy.

In my kayaking club we found that we had a lot of women doing taster sessions and then never coming back. When we had female coaches leading the (mixed) groups or 3 women turn up in one session then more tended to stick around and join the club.

Outofbreath a Nope it goes both ways, generations of men being told to do ‘manly things’ and women doing ‘women things’. And it’s indoctrination from a young age. As I said we have 2 1/2 year twins, go into a toy shop, for him it’s cars, construction, action figures, trucks, dinosaurs, science stuff that’s marketed at boys, for girls it’s cooking, dolls/babies and pretty stuff. So already it’s suggesting that boys will grow up and go and do stuff while a woman’s place is to stay home, cook, raise the kids and look pretty. Anything that isn’t is usually just a pink version of the same bike but with some glitter and/or a unicorn on it.
Even a chemistry set aimed at girls is all about making makeup whereas the boys version has boys in lab coats, goggles and looking ‘sciency’.

Luckily my wife is big into sports and the outdoors and most of the other women/girls (on my side) in the family are farmers and grew up in very boy heavy environments. So not much pink.

As said all their toys and stuff are just piled up and they can play witty dolls, bikes, dresses or whatever.

And a Molgrips said, the problem is pressure from the rest of society. It’s going to be a long battle and hopefully we can overcome it by talking to the people in the best position to understand – women.

And as someone else mentioned, this thread very much seems to mirror the recent race one, as in lots of us white men saying there’s no problem because we know someone from whichever demographic the thread is about.

Molgrips I feel your pain.

My wife has an excellent analytical technical mind and would make an excellent (for example) computer programmer. But she was never exposed to anything technical, and grew up in a very conservative environment, and despite being an outspoken feminist by her teenage years she’d internalised the fact that techie things just weren’t for her despite having an engineer for a father. I’d explain things from my work to her, and she’d get them immediately, and it took many years of pointing out how unusual this is for a completely un-trained person that she started to appreciate it. And incidentally she earns about a fifth of what I do and works much harder.

it goes both ways, generations of men being told to do ‘manly things’ and women doing ‘women things’.

So STOP. Give up biking and do the things you really want to do. You can’t help other people but you can sort yourself right now and take up the hobbies you really will enjoy, not the one’s society has tricked you into becasue of your gender.

white men saying there’s no problem because we know someone from whichever demographic the thread is about.

Errr, no in this case we’re told the men are the victims. We’re being pushed by society into specific hobbies we don’t really like doing (like biking) rather than doing the cool stuff that deep down we would want to do but society doesn’t encourage us do do. We’re told women have the same problem.

Outofbreath – the thing is I really like biking, mountaineering, kayaking and surfing. But that’s because I grew up in an area where dicking about on bikes/MXs, etc was what boys did. And the other sports I picked up in college where I was doing a course about outdoor sports management (and subsea spent the next 10 years travelling the world doing it). Sometimes we’d have girls trying to not do caving or kayaking or rock climbing because it ‘wasn’t girly’ and couple of guys teaching it wasn’t going to convince them it wasn’t, even though they thoroughly enjoyed it. Once more and more women started instructing, teaching and coaching the attitudes very gradually started to change. And hopefully the will.

Society isn’t making us do these things, but it pressurises us into thinking about certain stuff as boys or girls stuff. Barbie vs Action Man. Rugby vs netball, football vs hockey. My schooling was 80s to mid-90s and I’m pretty sure that no girl was taught rugby at any of the schools I went to (apart from touch/‘new image’ rugby) because ‘it was for boys’.

Although judging by the way some people on here think there was no social bias solely because I knew 1 girl at my school who played rugby to a very high standard completely independent of our school. So that makes it alright.

And that’s the point I’m trying to make when all of mainstream society/branding/toys/TV/etc says ‘girls do this and boys do that’ us parents have an uphill battle from day one.

It’ll take time and it’ll take a lot of positive change.

I’m not saying there is a conspiracy.

I’m saying that little kids absorb what’s around them. You don’t have to TELL girls that only boys ride bikes – if they only see boys riding bikes then they’ll infer it’s a boy’s thing.

Yep the data on what jobs/careers kids consider are frightening. Wouldn’t be hard to imagine it’s the same for other choices.

By the age of seven, children are already facing limits on their future aspirations in work, according to a report from the OECD international economics think tank.

Andreas Schleicher, the OECD’s director of education and skills, says “talent is being wasted” because of ingrained stereotyping about social background, gender and race.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50042459

I really like biking, mountaineering, kayaking and surfing. But that’s because I grew up in an area where dicking about on bikes/MXs, etc was what boys did.

Which is it? If you really enjoy them great, carry on. If on the other hand you’re doing them because you grew up in an area where people of your gender did them then that is a terrible reason. STOP now and do something you genuinely like.

Stop blaming other people for your own hobby choices.

I’m not blaming people for my choices. I’m saying that society most likely heavily influenced a lot of my choices and perceptions growing up. I ditched all the stuff I did because ‘that’s what guys do’ eventually. But I came from a rather liberal and atypical family that encouraged stuff outside the norm. And I can still admit that I was heavily influenced by gender stereotypes even then.

But it took me quite a long time to realise and understand these things and how they affect us (and our children) and have made it a goal to study, understand and try to change it as best I can for my kids’ generation onwards.

As someone pointed out in both this thread and the other one, these things won’t change until basically all the (mainly) white men realise what is actually happening, start admitting that it’s real and listening to the people it effects and how they would go about fixing it.
FFS it’s only been a few years since the outdoors industry started to move away from the ‘shrink it ‘n’ pink it’ attitude for equipment and clothing (and some still do).

Half the bike industry still think that female riders need special women specific geometry because they are different to men (which is true to some extent, but in my close family alone I have a mum who’s 5’1 with super short legs and an aunt and cousin who are over 6’ with incredibly long limbs) and still try to lump women’s shape into one style when the actual fact is that women’s shape and sizes vary as much, if not more than that of men.

There are scientific studies, dissertations, magazine articles everywhere demonstrating, proving and explaining how society, media and marketing specifically aim and target boys, girls, men and women and pressurises them into different ways of thinking about stuff. He’ll, theorems been at least 3 TED talks I’ve seen in the last 5 years that break it down into layman’s terms for us all.

I really like dancing, sewing & drawing. I knew this as a child because as a girl I was given the opportunity to try them and find out. It was only later in life that I found out a also enjoy biking, kayaking and climbing. I’m sure there are some boys that would have enjoyed to dance or sew but they weren’t given the opportunity to try (hopefully they’ve tried it later in life). There’s nothing that says everyone should enjoy every sport only that you don’t tend to find out unless you try it and your less likely to try if you can’t see anyone like you doing it.
I’m sure even if there was no bias at all it wouldn’t be 50/50 but equally its fairly off putting to be the only person like you doing something.

By the way that video in the OP was excellent.

As someone pointed out in both this thread and the other one, these things won’t change until basically all the (mainly) white men realise what is actually happening, start admitting that it’s real and listening to the people it effects and how they would go about fixing it.
FFS it’s only been a few years since the outdoors industry started to move away from the ‘shrink it ‘n’ pink it’ attitude for equipment and clothing (and some still do).

There’s a flip side to that. If women are empowered to do different jobs and earn more men will be empowered to earn less and do different jobs, this will again further empower women…and then Giant might make those mens bikes paint jobs as good as the Liv bikes!! Men are too wrapped up in being protectors and bread winners and all that macho bullshit that drives all sorts of bad shit in society, all of which would be helped by empowering women. Take covid, men are more likely to die but more women have been vaccinated as men are too busy bread winning or being macho to take time off to get vaccinated.

I’m seeing this from a different angle, my daughter is 8 and loves riding her mtb. Happy riding 10-15 miles with me at a steady pace. But she is the only girl amongst her friends that rides lots and wants to go for a ride. So when I organise a kids ride with parents it’s pretty much only boys from her class that turn up. She’s also small for her age and has no chance of keeping up with the boys who are bigger. So much so she’s losing interest in riding with them. I’m hoping she’ll continue to ride but when all her girl friends have little interest she’s very much on her own and it seems at 8 years old there’s very much them and us with girls and boys. As to why none of the other girls want to ride who knows the answer as several of them have parents that encourage them as I’ve done

It’ll take time and it’ll take a lot of positive change.

Forcing people to do something they don’t want to isn’t positive in my book.

I really like dancing, sewing & drawing.

I absolutely hate dancing and drawing. Why should I be forced to do them?

My schooling was 80s to mid-90s and I’m pretty sure that no girl was taught rugby at any of the schools I went to (apart from touch/‘new image’ rugby) because ‘it was for boys’.

No girl ever did Rugby at my school either .. because the school didn’t do rugby not because of their gender.

My experience is that today it is not MEN telling women what sports they can and can’t do but other women… I honestly think most men are onboard … however some women are clinging to a different reality.

The same goes for many other things… I was shocked by the complete lack of sympathy my son’s mother had for her sister who nearly died (again) because “she shouldn’t be doing that stuff”.

In the same with son’s mother says she can’t change a wheel because that’s a man job… can’t fix her NetFlix… etc. and struggles with why I’m the one has to do all the sewing in the house because she just doesn’t like it but presumably could do it if she liked ???

Its not just her .. my neighbour regularly comes round to ask for help for things his wife has deemed “man jobs”… in a strange STW twist the last was fitting the flue for the new log burner.. apparently a man just looks at a piece of flu at it will magically cut itself…

I have a long list of things “real men” can do… like being able to see the TV on the ground floor whilst aligning the aerial on the roof… (because I asked if she could stand where she could see the TV whilst I aligned the aerial – I was told “real men don’t need help” ) – I don’t remember why she can’t hold a paintbrush or roller… but she had a reason…

I don’t think these anti-feminist/equality women are very numerous today but they do have a bigger voice because “only women are allowed to have an opinion” so their voice is louder.

Perhaps it’s worth questioning that mantra?

I’ve also met a few men that for various reasons won’t do “manual work” whatever that is today (separate thread). This included changing light bulbs… (literally not figuratively and screw thread not bayonet)

I suspect this is closer in 2021 as to why some women don’t want to do certain things than being actively prevented from doing them.

(disclosure the bloke I’m thinking of was some 3rd cousin or something of the Hapsburg’s slumming it as a Financial Manager but perhaps that’s a good example because of this?)

The similarity I see …
When the guy was having his light bulb changed by the manual worker he saw fit to tell the manual worker HOW to do it… same when my mate was changing a wheel for him… he was sat on a wall telling my mate how to change a wheel… but refusing to get his hands dirty

It’s the same thing I see changing a wheel for the son’s mother… or fixing netflix etc. she has to TELL ME HOW .. she won’t do it but has to manage. The same with Debbie the neighbour… she will be telling her husband (coincidentally also Steve) how he should do some manual work she won’t even try and do… then berate him.

Incidentally one of my best and oldest friends who happens to be female is the person I trust most to rebuild an engine (pretty much any engine)… but weirdly her brother is not far past being able to change a light bulb.

Gotta shoot .. meeting 3 people at Rogate… (erm 2 female as it happens not that I’d thought of it that way until this thread)