It’ll take time and it’ll take a lot of positive change.

It would take time to convince everyone to change, but you can change right now. Sell your bikes. Stop posting on STW, head over to Mumsnet. Buy yourself some Marian Keys books. You can do the things society has conditioned you away from *right now*.

Outofbreath was it nature or nurture that made you a bit of a wally?

@joshvegas Is @outofbreath the wally or the people claiming that they are happy with the lot that they have been brainwashed into, but we should feel sorry for the stuff women have been brainwashed into.

The irony basically that are saying that somehow men get a the better brainwashing or that somehow men don’t get brainwashed and thus women are weaker.

The whole argument is nonsense and I think outofbreath is just highlighting that.

@Molgrips does not want to give up his brainwashed activity’s so what makes some people think that women do? Could it be they have as much strength of character as men and are just doing what they enjoy?

Yet you’d know immediately from their youtube history which tablet belonged to a lad. He hasn’t been brainwashed, it’s his nature.

I think there has been stuff in the news about people getting pulled into rabbit holes on youtube… Perhaps he is seeing on youtube himself in some videos and not in others.

MY daughter changed as soon as she went to nursery. Staff interaction, speaking to other children etc.

You are not the only influence on your child.

@Molgrips does not want to give up his brainwashed activity’s so what makes some people think that women do? Could it be they have as much strength of character as men and are just doing what they enjoy?

This.

The whole narrative is that men are doing the “correct” hobbies and are impervious to brainwashing but women are feeble minded victims who don’t realize they’ve been brainwashed and will continue to mindlessly do stuff they don’t really like until men mansplain to them that they are all wrong.

Errr, no in this case we’re told the men are the victims. We’re being pushed by society into specific hobbies we don’t really like doing

That is totally and completely NOT what I am saying!

I’m saying that we might like lots of things, but society conditions us to pursue certain things but not others. This means that you might miss out on something you would have really liked.

No-one’s consciously slaving away doing something they hate and looking wistfully out of the window at the surfers or bikers and thinking ‘I wish I could do that but I’m a girl’. At least, not in this country I’m sure. I’m talking about subconscious conditioning which leads people not to bother even thinking about the biking or the sewing etc as something they could do – they don’t think they’ll enjoy it, because they think it’s not for them. Like the example given with the kayaking. If one woman turns up at the taster session they rarely continue – but if three women turn up or there’s a woman coach, they do. It’s about identifying with the activity. The single women who turn up are clearly interested in kayaking, because they’ve made the effort to come, but something about the session meant they didn’t enjoy themselves particularly, despite the activity being the same as when the groups of women turn up. Is this just a co-incidence? In the face of all the evidence we see, I doubt it.

Forcing people to do something they don’t want to isn’t positive in my book.

How on EARTH could you possibly think that this is what’s being suggested?

because “only women are allowed to have an opinion”

Honestly – what the ****? I can’t conceive how you could possibly think this is what people are suggesting!

Let me give you all a tip – if you read a well reasoned argument on the internet and it seems absolutely preposterous – that probably means you haven’t got the point. OutOfBreath, you are apparently interpreting my argument as being absurd, but if you give me a bit of credit for my intelligence you should go back and read again. You’ve understood more or less the exact opposite of what I really mean.

The real issue is that you are saying ‘men this’ and ‘women that’. That is the root cause of this. It’s futile but also damaging to say that. If I said ‘men like outdoorsy things’ that would be just as wrong as saying ‘women like outdoorsy things’. Because some men and some women do, and other men and other women also don’t. You can like whatever you like (obviously!!!) but you must not talk in generic terms about genders, because that then leads to the kind of social condition that leads to people not realising that they might like something.

The whole narrative is that men are doing the “correct” hobbies and are impervious to brainwashing but women are feeble minded victims who don’t realize they’ve been brainwashed and will continue to mindlessly do stuff they don’t really like until men mansplain to them that they are all wrong.

THAT IS NOT THE NARRATIVE!

****’s sake.

@molgrips – you and I both know that outofbreath isn’t so stupid as to unintentionally misinterpret your point.

@molgrips, what is the narrative then ?

I hear poor women we need to help them, but men don’t need help in choosing their leisure activities.

You may not think that’s what you are saying, but you are.

zerocool
Molgrips I feel your pain.

RSI ?

Well this has gone a bit weird….

I just kind of assumed everyone should be free to have a go at anything they fancy, and we all need to make sure we are helping and not hindering that, which may mean some eople and groups need extra help.

It’s plain that some folk on this thread need extra help.

@molgrips, what is the narrative then ?

Haven’t you been reading the thread?

Let’s summarise:

1. Society conditions boys, girls, men and women to like certain things and not like other things. We need to work against that, because people are missing out on opportunities that they would enjoy and in some cases could make a big positive difference to people’s lives.

2. We must not generalise about men and women because this is how point 1 comes about. Even if 80% of women would never like something, we mustn’t say ‘women don’t like that thing’ because a good portion of the remaining 20% would probably be dissuaded from doing it from early childhood. And we mustn’t say ‘women don’t do that thing’ because that will have the same effect.

3. We work against point 1 by dissolving these ideas – by depicting the activities we love (whatever they are) as being inclusive and importantly NORMAL. If this means women only clubs or sessions of whatever it is then fine.

4. ‘Liking’ an activity is a pretty fluid idea. How many times have we done something with a boring group of people or on a crappy day or a badly run course and thought ‘bah that was rubbish’, when we could have done the same thing with a great group of mates and had a great time? Most activities are good, otherwise no-one would do them, but how we pick the ones we end up doing is complex and influenced by many things. But gender should NOT be one of them.

Just re posting from 2 pages back (although I have corrected the grammar!!)

You can keep trying molgrips, I don’t think he will get it though!!!

Most of us get it molgrips, i think you have been really clear. Some of us are either really really feel threatened by something or are deliberately trying to get a rise.

Probably time to give up.

@molgrips – you do get the feeling that some here are deliberately misunderstanding what the point is here, because otherwise it might mean admitting they’re wrong about something.. 🤔

Actually, I can give a couple of good examples here:

1. Society says that eating meat is macho, masculine, tough, etc – hence why most vegetarians/vegans are women (because they can see through or aren’t affected by that conditioning), and why you end up with pejorative terms like “soy boy” and so on. However, I grew up with a dad who was, and still is, vegetarian – so seeing that as a primary influence meant that the notion of men who don’t eat meat as weak held less sway, which made it very easy for me to go vegan.

2. As a kid I skateboarded and rode BMXs, mountain bikes, etc because that’s what my friends did, and I loved it (and still do) – but they were very much “boy” things. I knew of girls at my school that rode horses, but that was seen as being a “girls thing” that boys didn’t do. Having now had the chance to get into horse riding as an adult, I wish that it hadn’t been seen as something that boys didn’t do, because I could have been a half-decent rider and not had to overcome a lot of the fears that I’ve had due to learning to ride as an adult that have hindered me.

So,there – I’ve actively stopped doing something that society deems men should do thanks to seeing someone in my youth who bucked societal norms, and have started doing something as an adult that I wish I’d had the opportunity to do as a youth but didn’t because it wasn’t seen as normal for my gender and I didn’t see anyone of my gender doing it. Which is exactly the point being made here!

.

deliberately trying to get a rise.

I believe the term is trolls and agree best to not waste any more typing on them.

No people are interested in a debate, and what they get instead is called names.

No they aren’t.

So,there – I’ve actively stopped doing something that society deems men should do thanks to seeing someone in my youth who bucked societal norms, and have started doing something as an adult that I wish I’d had the opportunity to do as a youth but didn’t because it wasn’t seen as normal for my gender and I didn’t see anyone of my gender doing it.

That’s great, overcome your conditioning and do the things you want to do. That’s exactly what I’m advocating.

I get that, but the main thing that’s being advocated is a removal of the societal norms so that in the future people don’t grow up conditioned to think that certain activities aren’t for them due to their gender/race/etc, and thus don’t have any conditioning to overcome – do you get that?

do you get that?

I think his brain has exploded 😃😃😃😃

Outofbreath. The point I’m trying to make is that rugby, biking, wrestling, cars, mechanics/engineering isn’t a man thing and seeing, cooking, staying home and raising your children while hubby goes to work down t pit isn’t woman’s stuff. These are all just preconceived ideas that have gradually been put in place over the last however many decades/centuries.

But after reading your all your posts I’ve finally come to the conclusion that you either A) don’t quite get it,
B) are a troll or
C) just a massive bellend
So I’m going to give up trying to make you understand where I’m coming from.

Tootle pip.
Tom Kp

Ps – Molgrips seems to understand.

The point I’m trying to make is that rugby, biking, wrestling, cars, mechanics/engineering isn’t a man thing and seeing, cooking, staying home and raising your children while hubby goes to work down t pit isn’t woman’s stuff.

Of course they’re not, nobody is saying they are. But there are people in this thread who used to regard them as such and say they do gender specific stuff themselves to this day *because* they thought they had thought they were gender specific in the past.

I’m saying the easiest solution to that is for them to do the stuff they want to do regardless of their previous gender assumptions about those activities.

You’ve been given on example of someone who thought horse riding was a female pursuit (which is a bit mad, my brother rides horses and male riders are commonplace, unremarkable. There are less female jockeys than male IME) and in later life has decided to do it in spite of his previois views. If he can do it, you can do it. Get a grip, put aside your predudice and quit the things you’re doing because you think society expects it and start doing the things you want to do. Don’t blame society for your life choices. Take responsibility for your own hobbies.

(Alternatively, if you think you genuinely like your hobbies and don’t want to change them them then you might want to face the fact that other people feel the same way as you.)

As I touched on above I also think the cited examples of gender specific hobbies are terrible. Men in Horse riding are totally unremarkable, if you saw a bloke on a horse you wouldn’t think it worthy of comment. Ditto women on bikes, I’m struggling to think of a woman who doesn’t own and use a bike among my own neighbours and friends. Riding around my local area it’s deffo 50/50 with many people riding as couples and in family groups. Kayaking was offered as an example as well – I kayak a lot – among the people I see there’s a 50/50 split but I don’t count them all so maybe that’s wrong. My daughter has joined a kayak club this year – those numbers I can count and there’s exactly 50/50 split – they allocate places in that ratio. I’m sure people could have come up with far better examples than those cited. Even rugby – the club’s I’m familiar with all have one or two women’s teams and 2/3 men’s tears. I reckon on average that works out higher than 1/3 of the participants are female. There are far better examples.

Ffs out of breath, are you just deliberately trolling now..?

But there are people in this thread who … say they do gender specific stuff themselves to this day *because* they thought they had thought they were gender specific in the past.

Literally nobody has said that..! What people have said is that the choices they had available to them were bound by what people considered societal norms at the time. What they are trying to do is remove those societal constraints so that, going forward, future generations don’t have those perceived limitations imposed on them.

You’ve been given on example of someone who thought horse riding was a female pursuit (which is a bit mad, my brother rides horses and male riders are commonplace, unremarkable. There are less female jockeys than male IME)

Again, are you deliberately being obtuse..!? And in fact, you’ve actually proven my point in a way – because you knew someone of your gender who rode horses, it wasn’t ever presented to you as something that wasn’t for your gender. I knew of no people of my gender who rode horses, and no one ever said to me “This is something you can do if you want – it is open to you”. THIS is exactly what we’re trying to achieve with EVERYTHING!

<bangs head against brick wall>

I’m saying the easiest solution to that is for them to do the stuff they want to do regardless of their previous gender assumptions about those activities

Dear god, could you be more stupid?!!?!?!

But there are people in this thread who … say they do gender specific stuff themselves to this day *because* they thought they had thought they were gender specific in the past.

Literally nobody has said that..

Here’s someone saying it: “I wish I’d had the opportunity to do as a youth but didn’t because it wasn’t seen as normal for my gender and I didn’t see anyone of my gender doing it.”

you’ve actually proven my point in a way – because you knew someone of your gender who rode horses, it wasn’t ever presented to you as something that wasn’t for your gender.

Not really, I’m saying I think horse riding is a very poor example of a gender specific pass time and I explained why. If people think otherwise fair enough, the specific examples make no difference to anything under discussion.

Is it just me or have you just quoted someone saying the exact opposite of what you have claimed they have said? As in you’re claiming that someone has said that they DO things because of conditioning by quoting someone saying that they DID NOT DO something because of conditioning?

As someone who has never felt the need to see someone of the same gender doing something that I fancy having a go at or have it presented to me as a choice I find this thread very confusing.

I thought society had moved forward quite a lot since the 60s and 70s when I was a kid. But after reading this thread I think there are more worrying issues than gender equality being raised here.

Is it just me or have you just quoted someone saying the exact opposite of what you have claimed they have said? As in you’re claiming that someone has said that they DO things because of conditioning by quoting someone saying that they DID NOT DO something because of conditioning?

You’re right, I meant not do in my original post. Not sure it makes any difference, if they’ve been conditioned not to do horse riding by definition they must be doing something else that suits their conditioning better, unless they spent the time they would have spent horse riding sitting still in a darkened room.

I think this is where your argument is failing though.
Your premise appears to be that people are ONLY doing the things they do because they are conditioned to do them. When the reality is that it is more likely that people are conditioned to perceive a set of options, and then pick from them. If, as per the above example the options presented to a male were MTB/football/rugby/competitive drinking, but the male in question was discouraged from horse riding, it doesn’t actually mean that they don’t enjoy MTB. It just means that they may have chosen to do horse riding AS WELL AS something else. Or it may have replaced some other hobby. There is no logical reason as you keep asserting that if a man wishes to take up knitting, he must give up football, or cycling, or hitting people in the face after 8 pints of Stella. The fact that you keep insisting that everyone must give up everything that they do and choose another subset of hobbies instead suggests that you actually believe that there are subsets of hobbies that are male and female.

Ah, the old “I’ve never experienced it so therefore there isn’t a problem” defence.. 🤣

If you grew up in an environment where you had no influences on what was or wasn’t expected of you or open to you due to your gender, or were immune to those influences then bully for you. But those influences are still extant, still subconscious, and still insidious. They also apply to not only your gender, but your ethnicity, social class, sexuality, and more. One of the most important things that can be done to reduce this is to make sure that kids are exposed to media showing people who are like them having experiences that previously they may have perceived as unavailable. See: normalisation of gay relationships and romances in film and on TV, etc.

This is really not that hard to understand.. 🤦‍♂️

To summarise while trying to type on a tiny phone screen:

The general premise that you appear to be arguing against is that society presents an almost subconscious set of choices to individuals of male and female pursuits. Thus some feel excluded from following particular pursuits that are in the “wrong” category.

E.g. I am given the choice of apple, orange or banana. My sister is given the choice of grapes, raspberries or beetroot. If I choose apple, even though I would quite like some raspberries, that doesn’t actually mean that I don’t like apples, oranges, or bananas. It just means I don’t get raspberries because they are not on offer

Can I suggest a little light reading of Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez?

Your premise appears to be that people are ONLY doing the things they do because they are conditioned to do them.

No. I think people are saying that conditioning is a significant factor for large gender disparities in take up of pass times/interests/hobbies. Not the only factor.

There is no logical reason as you keep asserting that if a man wishes to take up knitting, he must give up football, or cycling, or hitting people in the face after 8 pints of Stella. The fact that you keep insisting that everyone must give up everything that they do and choose another subset of hobbies

Yeah, no need to give up anything. Just do exactly what the horse riding guy did, take up the stuff you fancy regardless of whatever conditioning you think you’ve had. …but by definition if you do more of one thing you will tend to do less of other things. If you spend more time reading chick-lit you’re gonna have less time to make the airfix models of spitfires you’ve been (partially) conditioned to do.

Ok, we seem to be getting somewhere. So if you are saying there’s no need to give up anything, why were you insisting to an earlier poster that they should sell their bikes, stop posting on single-track and instead join Mumsnet and start reading “chick-lit” (I assume that is the author you were referencing, not familiar with their work. But again, clearly referencing “chick-lit” is not going to discourage males from exploring their work is it?)?

Why did you insist they would have to leave Single-track and post only on Mumsnet? Why not both?

And yes, you are correct, people are saying that conditioning plays a large part in the choices people believe are open to them.

What you appear to be arguing back though is that people cannot be enjoying any of the choices they have selected from the options given to them, purely because they may also have enjoyed the options of thngs that were believed to be not available to them.

I’m sorry. I couldn’t see past the hot pants the girls were wearing…..

Blah blah blah…. Yeah, more girlz is good.

@idiotdogbrain Was your last comment aimed at me? If so, I wasn’t offering a defence for anything. Of course I am aware that inequalities exist I just think it could be tackled at a more fundamental level.

outofbreath

Not really, I’m saying I think horse riding is a very poor example of a gender specific pass time and I explained why. If people think otherwise fair enough, the specific examples make no difference to anything under discussion.

Horse riding is perhaps a very good example of why certain people do certain things, it just has little or nothing to do with gender.

I grew up on skank estates, I for reasons I don’t remember really wanted a horse (probably the books I was reading).
I’m pretty sure the reason I didn’t get a horse had nothing to do with my gender and more to do with not having enough food or heating for the 3 of us without a horse.

My mate Martin (primary school) was always the smallest in the year … he actually dreamed of being a jockey.

My mate Neil (secondary) lived on a farm and though they weren’t well off had a horse in the family… again this is hardly rocket science is it?

idiotdogbrain

Ah, the old “I’ve never experienced it so therefore there isn’t a problem” defence.

Erm.. perhaps because that seems to be the exact point being missed that OOB is making.
It just doesn’t fit the narrative.

.. lets say girls in the UK have no peers for DH ? (oh – oops )
or Why didn’t Jolanda Neff (or Nino for that matter) take up DH? (In the case of Jolanda earlier)

is this because of their specific genders ?

What about Maren Lundby … does she do Ski jumping because its a ‘women’s sport’ or because the Norwegian Ski Federation pour 95% (whatever it is this year) of all funding into ski jumping?

Or to put it another way, why did the Jamaicans give up bob sleigh or where is Edwina the Eagle?
Or in terms of MTB gender equality how couldn’t we get a womens rider to the WC with Tahnee and Rachel out through injury?

I thought society had moved forward quite a lot since the 60s and 70s when I was a kid. But after reading this thread I think there are more worrying issues than gender equality being raised here.

To put that in context ?
The issue is being misrepresented …
We couldn’t get a woman to the DH world cup because BC wouldn’t pay… pure and simple.
If DH was an Olympic sport they’d have been all over it.

The reason no-one M/F I grew up with rides horses is because it’s an elitist sport with a high cost of entry.

The reason I did martial arts, fell running, climbing, caving, kayaking and bikes were simply down to availability and with the only exception of being near 50/50 on caving where there were definitely more males and kayaking where there were definitely more females. (NE lancs 1970’s)

If I look at my sons friends today I’m pretty sure if I actually totted up more than 50% of his MTB friends we ride with are female.

The only people I hear objecting to girls riding MTB are not men but women and I say that in all seriousness. Mothers, sisters and grandmothers even … I have never to my recollection heard a bloke say “girls shouldn’t be doing that” but I have heard it from countless mothers.

I can also say that until this year my son never thought if the people he were riding with were M/F either and the only reason he seems to have now noticed is because his hormones started to kick in and he seems to have has developed a preference for riding with (hanging out around) girls.