The STW Ski & Snowboard thread. The 2013-2014 season

Isn’t the French definition of ‘domaine skiable’ restricted to maintained/patrolled pistes? i.e. a defined route on the slope marked by poles?

Or have I misunderstood the interpretation?

Digby, Serre Che seems a little different to me, as they a lot of areas outside the piste markers that are still considered ‘on piste’

For example, lots of the area around the black Isolee piste are “brut de neige” areas like that. Not pisted, not poled, but still very much ‘domaine skiable’.

I think the real definitions come in to play during a high avalanche risk, when they really pull it back to the real definition of ‘between the markers’ on piste, as opposed to the ‘domaine skiable’.

CFH, interesting! Thanks for the clarification. 🙂

I guess the ‘brut de neige’ areas fall into the same classification as the Italian ‘itineraries’ ?

i.e. they are a defined route and included on the piste map irrespective of whether they’ve been groomed. This does imply that they’ve been patrolled/ski-cut/deemed safe though doesn’t it?

What I’m trying to understand is whether the lift company in Serre Chevalier are likely to be liable in some way for not ‘closing’ the run under the lift – French law has previously been very aggressive in this manner e.g. the Montroc avalanche in 1999 and the Mayor of Chamonix subsequently being found guilty of second-degree murder.

@Digby – yes different resorts may choose to designate areas as skiable but not patrolled for example. Ste Foy where White Room Chalet (@stevocmd) are based has something like that. I recall Les Arcs 1800 used to have a huge area between the pistes which was called something like “ski totale”

Jasna (Slovakia) has them marked on the piste map with hatched areas designated as “Freeride Zones” – but as mentioned earlier they vary in exposure and terrain from relatively safe piste-side and tree runs to the rather more full-on chutes with accompanying increase in avalanche danger.

@jambalaya – so if I’m understanding this correctly, more and more European resorts are ‘opening up’ ski areas along the lines of North American resorts which are fully contained within a patrolled ‘resort boundary’?

In which case, surely the lift company is liable/responsible for the sad death in Serre Chevalier?

My interest in this is over concern regarding the ‘freedom’ of access into the backcountry and insurance premiums.

The past few years has seen a marked increase in the number of people heading ‘off-piste’ with resultant media interest in subsequent tragedies as each season unfolds.

Will this lead to restrictions in backcountry access I wonder? A few years ago some Italian resorts tried to make it compulsory to have a qualified guide if heading off-piste, but subsequently overturned this.

Insurance premiums (particularly for snowboarding due to the lower perceived survival rate in an avalanche) for backcountry cover are also increasing – I was quoted over £900 the year before last!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/27/alps-avalanches-dead-injured-france-switzerland

“Ski authorities throughout the Alps said it was imperative that skiers kept to the marked slopes”

This would seem to indicate that only marked slopes are deemed patrolled & safe in Europe [when snowpack stability is in doubt] – therefore you leave the piste at your own risk and should therefore have the relevant equipment & knowledge.

I wonder how many people hit up the side/slack country without any understanding of the current conditions … 🙁

We’re off on our first skiing hols this year, and have a 5 and 8 year old.

Is skiing still the recommended pursuit (as opposed to snowboarding) for the young uns?

If so would we be able to ski\snowboard together or are the mountains segregated?

What’s the deal with the short ski’s? If they’re good fun and more maneuverable than the long ones I may consider ditching the snowboard for the sake of being with the rest of the family.

“Ski authorities throughout the Alps said it was imperative that skiers kept to the marked slopes.”

As before, that’s the difference between being fine and dandy to get in to the slack country and keeping it between the poles on the groomers. If there’s a ‘between the poles’ policy in place, then it doesn’t really matter where the lifts are, surely? Just ski within the poles.

Serre Che’s pisteurs are world class, IMHO, and work their whatsits off to keep the place going smoothly.

@chomp: 8 is old enough to snowboard or ski. At 5 most places will recommend skiing only. The usual justification is to do with joint strength etc though I’m not sure how much of that has a real medical basis.

You won’t be segregated by sport, but young kids may be better on the nursery slopes which the eldest and adult will quickly bore of.

Is skiing still the recommended pursuit (as opposed to snowboarding) for the young uns?

Depends what they want to do!

I reckon the yoot are getting more and more in to skiing myself, as they see snowboardering as being something the old folks (Graham 😉 ) do.

New skis are so easy to learn on, and so much fun, too! I assume by shorter skis, you mean newer skis that aren’t like these;

But more like these;

Shorter, fatter, way more fun!

yeah, those are the ones. I’m sure the wife will be happy on nursery slopes with the youngest.

A few mates who go regularly have said that ski’s these days are a lot more fun for the novice, think I may just ditch the idea of snowboarding and stick with the family on the skis, as at the end of the day we’re going on hols for a shared experience, not for me to piste off on a snowboard (and probably do myself an injury in the process)

Chomp, which resort are you off to, then?

I reckon the yoot are getting more and more in to skiing myself, as they see snowboardering as being something the old folks (Graham ) do.

There is certainly a resurgence in skiing as it shakes off it’s old image and pilfers technology and style cues from snowboarding.

But it occurs to me that’s what the current generation are into.

A 5 year old represents the generation after that. By the time they are “the yoot” it will have cycled back around to snowboarding or possibly *shudder* snowblades. 😯

Either way my girl was on skis and a board at two and preferred the board 😀

By the time they are “the yoot” it will have cycled back around to snowboarding or possibly *shudder* snowblades.

no idea where we’re going yet, the wife’s just sprung it on me that we’re off on a snowy hol later this year 🙂

Any recommendations? Ideally somewhere family friendly and something else to do on the days we’re not on the piste

Some of the replies here may help:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/snow-where-to-skisnowboard-with-young-kids-this-year-any-good-chalets

Any recommendations? Ideally somewhere family friendly and something else to do on the days we’re not on the piste

😉

FWIW, the things I’d look for if you’re taking kids/noobs are;
Short transfer – OK, so nothing to do with the skiing, but a three hour coach ride at the end of a long day travelling is never fun!
Lots of playful green groomers – Assuming they learn quickly, the nursery slope soon gets dull! So, somewhere with some good, easily accessible greens is good.
Easy upload/download – Some kids would really appreciate getting up there to see the top of the mountain. If they can do that with easy access in a cable car up and down, all the better. Failing that, a good lift they can go up on and down on is a plus. Also, don’t be afraid to download on a lift at the end of the day. Late afternoon pistes, even green tracks/roads can be a mess at the end of the day.

Oh, and go to Serre Che. It’s awesome! 😉

I reckon the yoot are getting more and more in to skiing myself, as they see snowboardering as being something the old folks (Graham ) do.

lol

That’s exactly why I’m concentrating on skiing again this year, although nothing in the pipeline yet 😕 At 54 bending down and tightening bindings at the top of every lift is just so ………. ahem ……. last year 😉

i think CFH must have shares in both Ski manufacturers and the Serre Chevalier tourist board.

Yay! This may be the year I get to join in this thread. There is a fairly high probability I will return to the slopes this year after a fairly barren period since having kids.

Jam bo, if only!

I just rather like Serre Che as a place to go! 🙂

Personally I’d go to a small-ish Austrian resort if I had kids as they are pretty, mega friendly and cheap.

I’m having to slum it and go to France this year ( 😉 ) but Austria is a much better overall mountain experience IMO.

If you’re staying on piste and especially on hard-packed conditions skis are probably more enjoyable. Still nothing to beat snowboarding through teh pow though.

CFH – should you be bigging up Zermatt or somewhere? Thought you were meant to be posh?

At 54 bending down and tightening bindings at the top of every lift is just so ………. ahem ……. last year

K2 Autos FTW!

Still prefer my Flows Graham but it was good to try the K2’s 😉

Oh yeah, forgot you tried mine. What you moaning about if you’re in Flow “slippers”? 😉

Still not as auto as stepping in to ski bindings, though, or as auto as skiing straight off the top of a lift.

Still wonder why there’s not been more effort made to get a real clip in binding for boarderists. There must be some way to make it work.

@GrahamS K2 Autos are great until the cable snaps, trying to get hold of a replacement is a nightmare! Or rather I’m having a nightmare trying to get one in Tignes.

Still wonder why there’s not been more effort made to get a real clip in binding for boarderists.

They certainly tried. I rode Switch bindings for years. They were great because the didn’t clog with snow and you could clip-in as you slid off the lift. But the sacrifice was heavy stiff boots.

@GrahamS K2 Autos are great until the cable snaps..

Yeah I heard that was an issue with some of the earlier ones. Thought it was resolved now though? Mine were originals but got recalled and a new bit fitted.

Never had an issue with them, though I have had my BOA laces on my boots seize up leaving me trapped in the boot. That was fun! (I now always carry a BOA tool and spare laces!).

If there’s a ‘between the poles’ policy in place, then it doesn’t really matter where the lifts are, surely? Just ski within the poles.

Sorry to be a dog with a bone on this subject but how is this policy communicated? (Other than looking for the avalanche flag).

How do the skiing public know whether they should stick to between the poles or are fine and dandy to go rip up the freshies?

A couple of seasons ago we were on a lift watching the young French race team practising to the side of a piste. Next moment a small avalanche was triggered and a couple of the young racers were tossed about like rag dolls. It was awful to watch, hubby and I felt helpless. Luckily their instructors were onto radios straight away and help was soon on its way.
One young girl ended up unconscious and in hospital for a few days and one other slightly injured.
So please be careful out there, because this can happened where it did (side of piste) and with experienced seasons ski racers and their instructors.

Well, a trip this am to Rosenheim’s Blue Tomato shop and a new pair of Vans Encore boots walked out the shop with me! Very good knowledgeable staff and helpful too…
On the slopes the pm and I can confirm it was the old boots causing the heel lift!
Thanks for all the help and advice on here… Happy boarding and skiing folks! (we just need more snow here in the Tirol!)

A few mates who go regularly have said that ski’s these days are a lot more fun for the novice

As GrahamS mentions, skiing technology has ‘borrowed’ from snowboarding – with the result that a novice skier can get more ‘mileage’ in a relatively short period of time – whereas the novice snowboarder will be nursing bruised knees & butt-cheeks … 😯

Plus these things are often cyclical … the early generations of snowboarders are now getting on a bit, and thankfully the brash ‘punk’ image has given way to a more considered approach with the likes of Travis Rice (Art of Flight) & Jeremy Jones (Further, Higher & Deeper) documenting the search for the ultimate [snowboard] descent.

Still wonder why there’s not been more effort made to get a real clip in binding for boarderists. There must be some way to make it work

There is such a thing CFH – it’s the hard-boot binding/interface used for laying down big Euro-carves!

… for most people the soft-boot plus ‘strap’ binding is ideal but it relies on the boot & binding working together for performance, support and control of the board. Soft(ish) boots alone with a binding interface on the sole will never be able to provide the same level.

Each year something new comes along that is supposed to transform your ride e.g. last year the big thing was removing high-backs etc to give a more ‘surf inspired’ feel such as the ‘NOW Snowboard’ binding. This year seems to be about offering stiffer highbacks for control on steeper descents etc … go figure 🙂

The slack country, on / off piste thing.

I note the the pisties seem to have turn up and got the medical helicopter out for Schumacher. Sounds like an unlucky fall – trust he’ll be back joking about how some recreational skiing almost did for someone who spent most of their life racing F1 cars. Hopefully.

I note the the pisties seem to have turn up and got the medical helicopter out for Schumacher.

Not even the French would just leave you to die if you were out-of-bounds, but could be rescued with relative ease and safety.

BUT.. if it is outside patrolled piste then my understanding is that they no longer have any duty of care, responsibility for your safety or any legal obligation to rescue you.

Is that right?

if it is outside patrolled piste then my understanding is that they no longer have any duty of care, responsibility for your safety or any legal obligation to rescue you

That’s my understanding also GrahamS, but I guess the point [that I’m clearly struggling to make] is regarding the distinction between piste/off-piste and safe/dangerous from the perspective of many ‘winter sports enthusiasts’ …

It’s apparent from reading threads like this and other media coverage etc that many people have a somewhat ‘cavalier’ attitude to off-piste safety – GrahamS – you mentioned this being very much the case in Slovenia.

I’m incredible risk averse when it comes to slack/back & sides and having done various courses over the years, I will study the avalanche report/weather forecast/snow-pack etc before making an informed decision and will often be with a guide if heading into the backcountry proper …

… but I’ve just had what alcoholics refer to as a ‘moment of clarity’:

… for the majority of winter ‘sports’ enthusiast heading to the Alps etc – hitting up the easy access off-piste freshies has become a modern right of passage, but few are perhaps aware of the potential dangers since I can’t for the life of me recall how these are communicated in Europe with the exception of the yellow & black & chequered flag system. How many Brits are au fait with this?

Is there a presumption in Europe that anyone venturing past the piste markers is ‘self determined’?

I’m heading to the Alps for a couple of weeks in March so I’ve made a mental note to try and discover the answer to my question.

Have just read the Guardian article. I will definitely be staying inside the poles when we’re away in France next week. No matter how well equipped or prepared, common sense avoidance must be the first order.

I’ve not been out in Europe for a few years, but in Canada there are always big signs/maps setting out what is safe and what is not at the foot of the mountain, as well as notices at top and bottom of all the uplift.

Even with best will can still get unlucky I guess so stay safe out there folks.

I could be wrong but my understanding is that the “approved off piste areas” carry a health warning about the dangers and a ski at your own risk disclaimer. Including if you get caught in an avalanche (although often these areas are checked / “bombed” for avalanches). All the decent resorts have designated off piste routes generally with a marker board at the top and a rope gate. Numerous companies and the official ski schools offer off piste guiding. In Switzerland resorts often have marked itineries – these have a single pole down the centre but are not patrolled. They are declared open/closed though. My point being that off piste skiing is approved with certain caveats.

@Digby with regard to insurance the French carte neige covers you for helicopter rescue off piste. Normal ski insurance doesn’t, just on piste rescue. Carte neige is pretty cheap and can usually be bought with the lift pass.

CFH had a look at those links, the section down from the top doesn’t look steep enough to be an avalanche risk, it certainly does look very enticing 🙂