Give me your definition of ‘gender’ and ‘woman’ and I’ll let you know where I stand.

The short version is in my post. Gender is the societal construction, the way someone feels, acts, identifies, etc. Sex is the chromosome definition (accepting that is not a completely binary answer)

The link to the ONS site is pretty close.

You said

a woman is an adult human female. The term relates to the sex of the individual.

You seem to be making your position clear, that it is the adult version aligned to birth sex. And cannot be changed therefore?

So by that position you do not recognise my 2nd child to be my son? How far do you take that, would you refuse to use his preferred names and pronouns? To you, he’s a woman no matter his own preferences?

And yet, it seems like a not insignificant number of women seem to feel quite strongly about the subject. 🤔

What do they feel?

I appreciate that the demographic of STW is skewed, but we’ve had ten pages and counting almost exclusively of blokes debating the rights of cis women vs the rights of transgender people.

Makes you think.

Because when transwomen be accepted as women, women lose out. Every women’s space becomes a mixed sex space.

I don’t think so. If we admit trans women as women, then the shelters etc just admit women. A trans woman isn’t just a man in a dress. You can’t gain access to a women’s shelter by putting on a dress and walking in. The humans who work in these spaces really aren’t that stupid.

Now, I don’t work in a women’s refuge, but I’d expect that if CIS women were causing problems they’d get excluded as well, so I’m not sure of the merit of this argument. I suspect it’s born from not really understanding what it means to be trans.

Makes you think.

That’s the aim here yes 🙂

Under self ID, a woman is anyone who says they are. That’s what self ID means. No dress required.

This is how rape crisis services operate where I live in Sussex.

What questions could the people who run these services ask, or what dress/presentation code could they impose on people who attend, under a system of self ID?

What’s the alternative to self-ID? A full medical exam? Genetic testing?

“Sorry, your test results are in and we have detected a Y chromosome. You need to go back to your abuser.”

Just to be clear, are you now saying you support what you said moments ago can’t happen?

The alternative (if self-ID isn’t mandatory by law) is simply a change of policy. Most people are decent and will go along with it. For the people who aren’t, other measures would be needed whatever policy you have.

And providing a single-sex service doesn’t mean an organisation can’t also provide self-ID services and trans-only services (which my local organisation currently does). They would simply be providing a single-sex service as well (which my local organisation currently doesn’t).

Given that transgender women are, by some estimates, four times more likely to be raped than cisgender women it seems like a good idea, doesn’t it?

Also, I’m not sure what exactly your concern about transgender women having access to Rape Crisis Centres is. Are you confusing them with women’s shelters?

From what I understand Rape Crisis Centres offer counseling and support for people thinking about going to the police. What is the danger if transwomen are able to access these services?

Day 6 in the big brother house and the housemates are still in the kitchen bickering amongst themselves.

And yet here you are.

Other threads are available.

This strikes me as a question where we (men) should zip our privileged and defer to women. The whole question of being vulnerable (semi-dressed and/or alone) in a confined space just impacts women differently from men.

That’s your interpretation of how men and women view being semi-dressed and/or alone.  I can assure you that there are some women who are quite comfortable in those situations and who don’t have any great fears, just as there are some men who feel distinctly uncomfortable in such environments.  The idea that “toilets” and “changing rooms” are in some way safe spaces for women even when they are “single sex” is based on the false assumption that all women are nice/angelic/caring.  If you are in any doubt about that ask any teenage girl about their experiences of school toilets / PE changing rooms.

This strikes me as a question where we (men) should zip our privileged and defer to women

Indeed. My views on the subject are informed by talking to women.

just as there are some men who feel distinctly uncomfortable in such environments.

Yup – a couple of times in mainland europe I have used mixed sex dorms in hostels.  made me very uncomfortable.  Repressed brit?  me? 🙂

I did get used to it.

I am amused by a bunch of cis men talking about what women and trans people think.

I am amused by a bunch of cis men talking about what women and trans people think.

Yeah I said that earlier. Even accounting for STW’s massively unbalanced demographics, it’s somewhat unusual to have more trans- or trans-adjacent voices than cis female ones.

Anyway. We cannot consider “women” as one homogenous hive mind. As Mols said, “My views on the subject are informed by talking to women” which is fine as far as it goes but are they representative of women as a whole? You speak to five women, well done, you know what five women think. For every dyed-in-the-wool screaming TERF there likely will be more who just need a bit of reassurance or explanation, and many more who simply don’t care.

Someone mentioned women in men’s toilets earlier and whilst it’s kinda Really Not The Point it’s a good example of this. Go to a night club (remember those?) or a rock concert, by the end of the night there will be more women in the gents than men. I once caught one delicate flower sat having a piss on a sink. She gave me a cheery wave.

The requirement for single sex toilets might be forefront in the minds of some, potentially for very good reasons, but others demonstrably couldn’t give a toss. Especially after a bottle of pinot grigio and six Jagers.

As problems go, I increasingly suspect that this one is massively overstated.

we’ve had ten pages and counting almost exclusively of blokes debating the rights of cis women vs the rights of transgender people.

Well, quite.