For safety I’m going to start using fellow humans or homosapiens if I’m feeling posh.

That’s prejudiced against furries.

I’m with you on contracting names but calling anybody sir can get in the sea. I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.

Honestly, I feel the same of any title or honorific. Why do we need “Mr.” in 2023, what purpose does it serve? It feels like a throwback to when you’d address John Smith’s little lady wife as Mrs. John Smith.

@cougar you’re usually good at spotting a shibboleth.

My powers are severely diminished since Delilah cut my hair, or something.

The OP’s account is a couple of years old so if it is then they’ve invested in it.

At this point I’m going with “misguided” rather than “trolling.” Which, y’know, is fine, it’s good to learn things and that’s what they said they wanted to do.

The Finns have had this one sorted from the get-go as they don’t have seperate he/she pronouns, just ‘han’ for both.

So the simple solution is we all learn and adopt Finnish as our primary language.

I’d call him Ian or Gandalf.

A friend of mine (high flying London barrister at the time) was chatting with him at some do…. and then asked him which of his amazing roles he was most proud of… Gandalf or Magneto… he just ended the conversation by turning away and engaging with someone else instead. She’s very cheeky though… always cracks me up.

Yes, my friend being threatened with being fired did happen.

Threatened is a broad term.  People on both sides of the fence manage to make a mess of this; almost invariably people objecting to people’s preference of pro-nouns are making an issue from nothing (or don’t understand what a pronoun) is as you’ve done in the opening post.

However my wife has fallen foul of the “guys” problem before.

She runs a team with 4 men and one trans woman.  She addressed an email bollocking them for being idiots, by starting with “Guys, …”.  The woman came back to her objecting to the language.  My wife got in a terrible state but went back, apologised if it had caused offence but explained (100% truthfully) she used the terminology in a gender neutral sense and had always done so even when she previously ran a team of all women.  Her employee acknowledged that she might have jumped to the wrong conclusion, my wife said she would try to avoid using that word in the future and everyone got one with their lives.  No HR people were hurt in the process.

Her employee acknowledged that she might have jumped to the wrong conclusion, my wife said she would try to avoid using that word in the future and everyone got one with their lives.

Which is exactly how normal, rational people should interact.

As I’ve said many times, with any demographic it’s a vocal minority who give the rest a bad name. Some people simply have a chip on their shoulder. For every group of feminists there’s a TERF; for every group of vegans there’s a PETA activist; for every group of Christians there’s the absolute roaster with a PA system and hi-vis jacket saying “EVANGELIST” on the back who I walked past in Manchester city centre the other day. It’s counterproductive because all it does if piss people off and fuel “Muslims are banning Christmas” style rhetoric.

most people will understand that it’s all new to some folk and will appreciate you making an effort. So long as you’re not deliberately misgendering or deadnaming someone, you should be OK.

I work with a Steven. That’s his name, not Steve or Ste (or Dave, or Susan). He hates his name being contracted. What would you do if you worked with him and said “hey Steve”? Would you go “oops, sorry” and try harder to get their name correct next time? Or would you deliberately call him Steve because that’s what you want to call him and he should get over it?

This.

but the emphasis on pronouns puzzles me as 99% of the time, pronouns are used to talk about somebody, not to somebody, so the person referred to doesn’t hear them.

Probably true (well, not the 99% bit, that’s clearly a made up statistic) – but it is important to get it right even when not there. Firstly – because it creates a habit, for you and the listeners; secondly because it is just respectful. I mean you wouldn’t call Susan from accounts ugly fat Susan from accounts whether she hears it or not.

Firstly – because it creates a habit

That’s a really insightful point, Jon.

People complaining about it being new or strange or different or against “established grammar” – well, perhaps, but it won’t be after a little while if they practice.

Posting on STW I try to use “they” etc when referring to posters I don’t know, unless they have a fairly obvious alias like “DaveRides”. It’s good practice, it builds habit and helps unlearn conditioning. Gender issues and pronouns aside, I have no idea whether a poster is female and it’s wrong to just assume.

There’s an old logic puzzle: “A man goes to see the doctor. The man is the doctor’s son, but the doctor is not the man’s father. How?”

Is the OP the same chat bot-esque troll that was doing the rounds before?

I suspect it’s a former inhabitant. Dormant account for a few years that suddenly springs into action. Obvious troll is obvious

It feels like a throwback to when you’d address John Smith’s little lady wife as Mrs. John Smith.

Slight thread hijack but, for a reason I can’t remember, last week I was looking at the order of succession page on the royal family website, and there they still refer Beatrice and Eugenie, Randy Andy and Fergie’s daughters, as Mrs Whatever Their Husband’s Name Is. They’re 9th and 11th in line to the throne, but still (partially) defined by who their husband is.

https://www.royal.uk/succession

I mean, I know the royals aren’t the most progressive organisation, but this still surprised me.

Slight thread hijack but, for a reason I can’t remember, last week I was looking at the order of succession page on the royal family website, and there they still refer Beatrice and Eugenie, Randy Andy and Fergie’s daughters, as Mrs Whatever Their Husband’s Name Is. They’re 9th and 11th in line to the throne, but still (partially) defined by who their husband is.

Still only a small minority that don’t change their same when they get married? And the side point that their title is defined by being married at all.

And avoids weirdness over whether to call themselves Mrs Windor, or Mrs Kent,

Princess Mícheal of Kent?

Mícheal

Michael FFS

Still only a small minority that don’t change their same when they get married?

Click the link. The poster is referring to titles like…

“Mrs. Jack Brooksbank”

“Mrs. Michael Tindall”

It would be a lot easier if they/them was used for everyone

I guess. There’s no gender in Turkish (contrast with Indo-European languages), not even “he” and “she”, and they seem to manage okay (worked there for a bit geological aeons ago).

Where I work now it’s common for people to indicate pronouns in email sigs. I remarked to a young person that it could seem a little odd, a bloke from Osset who’s built like a brickie saying he wants to be referred to as “he”. I mean okay, sure… To be told and I think rightly that if it was only people with cause to consider how they wish to be gendered who were to indicate a preference, i.e. by exception, this would be the opposite of inclusive. So I’m now all for it, on the basis being nice shouldn’t be a big deal. Though I don’t yet do it myself.

Everyone is spelling “guys” but there’s me using, and saying, “guyz”.

Not sure your usage is my usage….

Posting on STW I try to use “they” etc when referring to posters I don’t know, unless they have a fairly obvious alias like “DaveRides”

Careful with that. When I was a you Air Cadet, we nicknamed a girl Dave as someone said she looked like Dave Gilmour from Pink Floyd (she didn’t actually look anything like him). This was about 25 years ago. A couple of year back I saw her being interviewed on TV in her role as an officer in the Navy, they put called her Dave in the interview (explaining to the viewers it was her nickname)

Where I work now it’s common for people to indicate pronouns in email sigs.

i’m never sure if this is a show of support or act of defiance

So I’m now all for it, on the basis being nice shouldn’t be a big deal. Though I don’t yet do it myself.

Do it, today. Come and join us.

theotherjonv (he/his/him)

A friend who works in a big corporation recently got threatened with being fired, after she wrapped-up a Zoom call with ‘cheers guys’.

I want to say that this didn’t happen so hard that it unhappened things that did. If it is in fact true and not some transphobic hate speech passed on to you third-hand from the Daily Express then it’s bloody stupid.

She’s an overachieving Texan with an IQ of 160 who contracts with a High Street bank at their HQ, and who only answers to the Board. She doesn’t suffer fool gladly, and with an IQ of 160, pretty much everybody else in the room is a fool. Let’s just say she ruffles ALL the feathers, and as such, I think some people grab every opportunity they can to try and trip her up, especially when they know that nobody can argue that ‘they’re in the right’. She’ll end up being a trophy dismisal for someone in the HR Dept (who appear to be a law unto themselves).

But the difference here, perhaps, is when you have someone with the appearance of a very masculine man who wants to be addressed as a woman, it’s very easy to slip-up and to misgender them.

Does that happen to you a lot?

In the past not so much, but recently more so.

I’ve been a freelancer in the Creative Industries for nearly 30 years, and I’ve worked with countless men (I’m assuming) who wear make-up, high heels, blouses, pear necklaces, UGG boots, and walk around with patent leather handbags. All of whom appeared to be straight & happily married. People would just shrug their shoulders and say “that’s just Jim”, or “what is he like?” with a wry smile. Most of the time people don’t want to lift that lid, so nobody really asked what they had got going on, and would just tip-toe around them trying to pretend everything was normal. I’ve also worked with a fair few whom you would never know were gay or transexual. Like ‘one of the lads’ whom nobody looked at twice. But then he sadly passed, and at the funeral his boyfriend got up and gave the Eulogy. There were a few slack jaws and glances being exchanged that day!

In a professional environment, in days gone by, nobody really got their knickers in a twist about misgendering because, TBH, I think the individuals involved quite liked the ‘mystique’ and attention that went with it. A couple of them would flit in and out of the campest accent you’ve ever heard, when it suited them to do so. Some clients loved it so it would get turned up to 11 for them. It was to some extent client-pleasing theatre, because apparently a straight man can’t be as creative as a gay man.

The misgendering thing didn’t really become an issue until I became an Industry Mentor and a Senior Lecturer and I was exposed to large numbers of millennials. They were very vocal and entitled compared to the old school ‘individuals’ I had worked with in the past. Literally there was what came before the 2008 admission and what came after 2008, and it was as clear as night & day. The most common theory amongst the Lecturers was that something had changed cirriculum-wise around the time that these kids were progressing through primary school and/or high school, and that the admission of 2008 was simply the first wave of a ‘new breed’.

Needless to say, the Universities whose No.1 priority is to be as perceived as being progressive and whiter than white, couldn’t embrace equality and – what some refer to as ‘wokeness’ – hard enough. The staff were absolutely petrified that there would even be the slightest unsubstantiated accusation or passing vexatious comment that they were a bigot, as that would bring their career to a dead stop. It got to the point were lecturers couldn’t be around students on their own and there had to be another (any) staff member there as a witness, especially when work product was being marked, because the students weren’t above making accusations if they were about to be failed off the course. We didn’t have any of these issues with the Swiss, Polish, Chinese, Pakistani or Finnish students – who all looked at the domestic students incredulously.

Now I see the product of those years working in the industry, and the bosses don’t know what to do with them. Mostly they pander to them, so the desk chairs get reused elsewhere and they’re replaced with the preferred bean bags. Lunch hours are spent playing games on ‘the Switch’ at their desks, and they’ll spend 10 minutes playing rock/paper/scissors before they decide who’s going to make the coffee, before they both change into their little barista outfits and both make the coffee anyway, making the 10 minutes of rock/peper/scissors totally redundant. They count down how many ‘sleeps’ until Greggs release this years Festive Bakes, and they co-ordinate with their friends via Social Media to figure out which branches will have them first and they’ll all meet up and queue together on the respective morning. Different breed.

On the plus side, for the studios themselves, the millenials consider any time spent in front of a computer as ‘play time’ (they can’t believe they’re getting paid to work a computer), so they’ll happy pull a 16 hour shift and only get paid for the first 8. That’s the way the industry has always worked. If studios had to pay staff for every hour they worked, they would all go bust in the first month.

When you ask the studio owners about the millennials’ backgrounds – are they single, are they shacked up with their girlfriends/boyfriends, do they still live at home with their parents? The owners don’t know because they’re too afraid to broach that subject. In one studio, the bosses had a sweepstake going because one of the lads (?) had mentioned his partners name was ‘Nic’ and they couldn’t, for the life of them, figure out if it was Nicola or Nicholas.

As a freelance contractor, if I screw-up and misgender/offend them, ultimately it’s the studio bosses who get it in the neck. It’s their PLC that will get sued. And there’s no reasonable “it’s OK, how were you to know? Please just try your best to call me Miss from now on” that’s just wishful thinking. It’s full-on crying, toys out the pram, 6 month paid sick leave due to the ‘stress’ and the full suite of Social Media coverage amongst their friends. Fathers turning up at the respective studio threatening legal action etc.

So yes, it does happen, and increasingly so. And you have to be REALLY careful. I’ve come to recognise that a ‘lad’ with perfectly threaded eyebrows or manicured/lacquered nails is a warning sign.

i’m never sure if this is a show of support or act of defiance

99% of people do it out of support, it’s just normalizing it.

I remarked to a young person that it could seem a little odd, a bloke from Osset who’s built like a brickie saying he wants to be referred to as “he”. I mean okay, sure…

The issue there is they might be the one in however many who don’t want to be a “he”. And then as you found, would probably not want to draw further attention to it by being the only person in the world who had to put she/her on her e-mail when the skinny kid who was re-assigned at 14 gets zero queries about it.

[edit] crossed posts with the OP.

And I’m not even sure where to start ripping into it.

She’s an overachieving Texan with an IQ of 160

OT but I don’t know the IQ of anyone I work with, or that of any of my friends. Do they put it in their signature along with pronouns? 😀

I guess. There’s no gender in Turkish (contrast with Indo-European languages), not even “he” and “she”, and they seem to manage okay (worked there for a bit geological aeons ago).

Oh wow. That’s interesting. Isn’t there some other term they use, which is akin to ‘brother’ and which to some extent signifies pecking order? Or is that some other culture I’m thinking off?

I had a good friend that worked there for a spell and he said they had a very interesting culture. Very much rooted in hospitality, community and looking out for each other. I love the fact that they nurture the stray cat population!

OT but I don’t know the IQ of anyone I work with, or that of any of my friends. Do they put it in their signature along with pronouns? 😀

I asked her once. She said 160ish. But I’m still stupid – I still make lots of stupid mistakes…

rightly or wrongly anyone who tells me their IQ as a way to impress me; goes into a category in my head . It isn’t labelled “super smart people that I’d like to get to know better”

But then he sadly passed, and at the funeral his boyfriend got up and gave the Eulogy. There were a few slack jaws and glances being exchanged that day!

What a depressing story.

When you ask the studio owners about the millennials’ backgrounds – are they single, are they shacked up with their girlfriends/boyfriends, do they still live at home with their parents? The owners don’t know because they’re too afraid to broach that subject.

If this is true, it sounds like little has changed.

In one studio, the bosses had a sweepstake going because one of the lads (?) had mentioned his partners name was ‘Nic’ and they couldn’t, for the life of them, figure out if it was Nicola or Nicholas.

These “bosses” sound like dicks to me.

rightly or wrongly anyone who tells me their IQ as a way to impress me; goes into a category in my head . It isn’t labelled “super smart people that I’d like to get to know better”

I asked, because sometimes I think she has lived 10 full lives and she’s still younger than me. Medical degree, read law, politics etc. etc. I don’t even know how many languages she speaks – and it’s not just speaking them she was a translator for a spell.

And her daughter, jeez she’s going to end up being an astronaut or similar! Different genes in that family!

ok that long post up there is definitely a troll – or maybe GPT-4 testing?

when work product was being marked, because the students weren’t above making accusations if they were about to be failed off the course.

While I’m not going to speak for every University (how could I) The University my wife’s a prof at deal with this stuff in exactly the same way that every other large organisation do, with policies that are remarkably dull and MOR. You won’t be at surprised to hear that the teaching staff range from all the way at one end right-on vegans protesting the rights of endangered wallabies, to a colleague of her’s who refuses to engage with students unless they address him as “Professor”  or “Sir” and everything in between

By the time it got to “threatening to fail the course”, students will have either got really bad marks in several assignments, missed them altogther, or plagiarised so obviously on a number of occasions that they would’ve had several meetings already, all of a sudden claiming being mis-gendered will mostly be politely ignored.

Needless to say, the Universities whose No.1 priority is to be as perceived as being progressive and whiter than white, couldn’t embrace equality and – what some refer to as ‘wokeness’ – hard enough. The staff were absolutely petrified that there would even be the slightest unsubstantiated accusation or passing vexatious comment that they were a bigot, as that would bring their career to a dead stop. It got to the point were lecturers couldn’t be around students on their own and there had to be another (any) staff member there as a witness, especially when work product was being marked, because the students weren’t above making accusations if they were about to be failed off the course. We didn’t have any of these issues with the Swiss, Polish, Chinese, Pakistani or Finnish students – who all looked at the domestic students incredulously.

As someone who works in the higher education sector this is utter bullshite of the highest order.

Anyone else have an ear worm?

 And you have to be REALLY careful.

You do maybe, the rest of meanwhile are just happily getting on with folks just like we always have.

 I’ve come to recognise that a ‘lad’ with perfectly threaded eyebrows or manicured/lacquered nails is a warning sign.

Of what, dangerously overspending on facials? A nail bar on their way home? what exactly?

As someone who works in the higher education sector this is utter bullshite of the highest order.

So you’ve never been advised to never be in a room alone with a student(s), and you haven’t been instructed to implement the square root rule?

When you ask the studio owners about the millennials’ backgrounds

are you sure that they are millennials? there are people in the workforce who are too young to be millennials.

work product

when did essays/assignments start getting called “work product?

i’m convinced that this is purely a windup.

I think this is a useful piece on why putting pronouns in email signatures etc can be a good idea:

https://medium.com/gender-inclusivit/why-i-put-pronouns-on-my-email-signature-and-linkedin-profile-and-you-should-too-d3dc942c8743

I’ll admit I have inconsistent implementation of it. I should probably fix that. If I’m reticent to say she/her because I don’t feel like drawing attention to my femaleness in some settings, then I imagine people with they/them pronouns would feel even more reticent.

Let’s just say she ruffles ALL the feathers,

So not that intelligent then after all? 😉

They were very vocal and entitled compared to the old school ‘individuals’ I had worked with in the past.

Everyone’s entitled – to some things, many in fact. I think when you use that word you really mean ‘over-entitled’. But like many things there is an explicit value judgement there. You are suggesting that there is a level of entitlement that everyone’s.. entitled to.. but no more. Which is reasonable. But who sets that level? Can it change?

Of course it can. It has changed radically over the centuries, and always for the better. And most of the time I think the establishment opposed this entitlement, because the establishment is old, established, and doesn’t like change. This is always how it has been. In fact, young people doing things differently and annoying older people is, ironically, one of the oldest constants in recorded history.

On the subject of pronouns specifically, this problem is largely to do with our language, as mentioned above. We only have two genders in our language, which means we need to fit everyone into those two groups. If we had three, like some languages do, then we would not resist that at all. When asked ‘what are you?’ those of us with a non-binary identity would have a ready answer and there would be no issue. Maybe we’d even have three sets of toilets everywhere. Fascinating how language can dictate thought.

meal_time_six is obviously a troll.  I was going to dissect that huge diatribe line by line but gave up.   You are the problem not them.

I work in an office with a large % of millennials and younger. I have encountered none of the things your on about.

when did essays/assignments start getting called “work product?

i’m convinced that this is purely a windup.

There were no essays or assignments on the courses that I taught, apart from the final year Atelier and the Dissertation itself.

In academic verbiage, the ‘work product’ is technically described as evidence supporting the ‘formative’ and ‘summative’ assessments.