The M5 crash last night

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16104319

The death toll from one of the worst British motorway crashes in memory remained at seven today as police said their “worst fears” over the M5 accident “have not been realised”.

At least a bit of “good” news. It’s a tragic loss of 7 lives, but if the final count is no higher that, then it is an impressive testament to the actions of the first responders. Specially when you consider the full facts. The only count which appears to be increasing is the number of vehicles involved – it’s scary to think so little was left of vehicles that they struggled to count them.

Currently sounding like the bonfire next to the motorway could be at least partly responsible for low visibility. Perhaps not the ideal spot for a Guy Fawkes event.

I cant see how a bonfire next to a motorway can in anway shape or form be held responsible for a car crash. scapegoat for people who refuse to take responsibility for the vehicle they’re driving anyone?

There are reports of thick smoke drifting across the motorway from the firework display

I cant see how a bonfire next to a motorway can in anway shape or form be held responsible for a car crash. scapegoat for people who refuse to take responsibility for the vehicle they’re driving anyone?

what is the rule? drive in accordance with conditions? if you can’t see slow down!

Whatever the cause of this crash nothing that comes out of any inquiry will impact on drivers.

We accept that deaths on the road are inevitable, that over 3000 people are killed each year is unfortunate but it is a price deemed acceptable for the freedom vehicles offer.

Edric – that’s hardly a surprise. Who’d have thunk it, smoke coming from a bonfire a couple of nights before bonfire night. Still no excuse to drive like a **** and take lots of folk out with you.

I only live a few miles from where this happened, not nice news to wake up to yesterday morning 🙁

Maybe all the wannabe accident investigators sat behind their computer screens scrutinizing this accident should read this. It was posted on pistonheads in a topic about the accident.

The problem with the whole issue of “driving safely” is one of “reversion to the norm”. For the vast majority of people, and there are approximately 34.5million full licence holders in the uk, the norm is not to be involved in a crash or killed (approx 240billion miles were driven in 2010, with approx 3200 people being killed, or 1 death per 75M miles)

Hence, for the average person the way they drive is broadly influenced by normality i.e. Their driving is sufficent to not have an accident. Yes, they may drive “poorly” speeding, tailgating, with poor observation and positioning, but in general, there driving is sufficent to avoid injury.

Now, due to pure chance, every now and then an event occurs that is not avoidable by these “average” drivers. They simply do not possess the training or skill set to be able to recognise the onset of a problem, and then did not present the necesary driving skills to be able to avoid it.

We can talk about reducing speed limits, and other such knee jerk reactions till the cows come home, but in reality these will have little effect. The driving population will just “revert to the norm” (and if speeds are slower, you are actually more likely to get into tailgating and other dangerous situation because the drivers “feel” safer). As a general rule, people are sheep, we follow normal patterns of action/reaction, but just occasionally events occur that tip that balance.

The simple fact of the matter, imo, is that driving in the uk is an acceptable risk as it stands. If you are involved in an incident then you have my condolancies, but in life sh*t happens. If you want to do something about it, then do it for yourself. Get some driver training, change the way you drive. Don’t blame everyone else, or moan about the system.

On Monday morning, several million people will get into their car, just like every Monday morning. Some will be preoccupied, some just won’t have the skills or training, a very small percentage will have a crash, some will be killed. That is the price we pay for the freedom that is granted to us by the car. In the years since WW2 the private car has transformed our lives, allowing people to have a quality of life far beyond anything we have had before. In life, everything carries a penalty, you get nothing for free, you have a choice to drive, you make it everytime you get into a car. You know the risks.

You, or I, might be killed tommorrow in a car crash, we might die from cancer, or be murdered, have a heart attack, die falling out of bed, be involved in a freak accident with a sandwich toaster. Anywhich way, when your time is up, that’s it. I suggest we all make the most of today, and life our lives in a way we can be proud off, irrespective of if we live to 100, or die tommorrow. Modern society now seems to expect that no one will ever die before their time, which a quick look at nature will confirm to be a ridiculous state of affairs. In a way, people are fooled into thinking that us homosapiens have now mastered their environment, and that technology can control everything.

These days media covers such events with such a blanket of faux tragedy and heroism that normal reactions are blown out of all proportions, witness the “hero” who helped carry a child to safety from the terrible inferno etc (in reality, i would expect any one reading this to do exactly the same when faced with that situation.) The days of “stiff upper lip” and a “silent strong resolve” in the face of adversity in the UK are long gone.

No doubt as a result of this crash, someone will be blamed, maybe even laws changed, but will it prevent this occuring again? No, unfortunately not, imo.

That is a very good post. And sums it all up. Yes it is a horrible thing to happen. But unfortunately these things happen occasionally. You don’t get this sort of issue when a plane crashes and when it comes down to it they are normally an accident.

IO do not think we should acept thousands of people killed in and by cars a#every year as acceptable or normal.

If anything else killed that many people we would be taking measures to stop it.

Driving standards are far too low and could and should be improved – unfortunately anything that restricts driving in any way is vopte loser so there is no political will.

Other countries have very different attitudes so it is not inate that int eh UK we drive so badly.

Other countries have very different attitudes so it is not inate that int eh UK we drive so badly.

http://www.admiral.com/newsArticles/4318/UK-road-deaths-%27lowest-in-Europe%27

I dare say that if I could be arsed, I could find a report that gave me what ever answer I wanted to read

listening to the local news and they are now suggesting a criminal enquiry surrounding Taunton Rugby Club,

So the fact the drivers are obviously to close together for the conditions etc is irrelevant.

Drivers are never at fault. hence you can kill cyclists twice and still walk away to drive again.

So the fact the drivers are obviously to close together for the conditions etc is irrelevant

How do we know this?

heartfelt sympathies to all involved drove down to cornwall and back this week along the M5 i consider myself a good driver and at times did hit 80 when overtaking. But the amount of people changing lanes with no indication, cutting in and people overtaking at speeds of well in excess of the speed limit was incredible. HGV drivers also seem to have a habit of driving side by side in the 2 left hand lanes on any incline thye can find which causes massive tailbacks. Frankly was happy to get of the motorway. slower speeds give people a chance to react talking from experience last year had an arctic pull from the inside lane to the middle and smacking the rear wing almost spinning the car (forign driver so was a left hand drive he claimed didnt see me at all and just pulled over) this happened in a contraflow so the speed was about 50 managed to control the car and get into the hard shoulder there was an awful lot of traffic about it was dark and raining but the slower speed everyone saw what happened and reacted accordingly so there was only damage to my car no on else involved which we had to be thankful for. if this had happened at 70/80 we wouldnt have stood a chance and would have probably involved a lot more vehicles. there for the grace of god. we dont know what happened friday night to cause this and I hope that the outcome of this incident is that it makes people think twice about driving like maniacs and drive for the conditions.

How do we know this?

if you hit the person if front you are to close, i would have thought that is obvious.

RTFM

60mph lorries taking up two lanes is a menace and needs to be addressed. I asked a lorry driver about this once. If his lorry is .1mph faster than the one in front, he would overtake – however long it took. (something about cost of fuel I didnt really understand)

In bad conditions, I am sure a 10-20mph closing speed on a lorry can be lethal – especially if that vehicle sticks its brakes on suddenly.

A really tragic accident.

mrmo – Member

if you hit the person if front you are to close, i would have thought that is obvious.

How about if you had left an adequate gap, but your brakes failed or you had a blow out under braking. What about if you had a heart attack at the wheel?

It doesn’t have to be someones fault

60mph lorries taking up two lanes is a menace and needs to be addressed. I asked a lorry driver about this once. If his lorry is .1mph faster than the one in front, he would overtake – however long it took. (something about cost of fuel I didnt really understand)

56mph isnt it? Anyway the reason they overtake is if the lift off the loud pedal to slow behind something, they will loose lots of speed and spend a lot of time and effort waggling gear sticks to get back up to speed. Its not like in a car where you can lift off and then accelerate away again.

56mph isnt it? Anyway the reason they overtake is if the lift off the loud pedal to slow behind something, they will loose lots of speed and spend a lot of time and effort waggling gear sticks to get back up to speed. Its not like in a car where you can lift off and then accelerate away again.

its not lots of speed though. Its a tiny difference that means the manoever takes hundereds of hundreds of yards to excecute. 1 person’s actions affects scores behind

If speed restriced vehicles were banned from the middle lane, maybe there would be incentive to sort the speed limiters out?

Maybe the French model of a ban on most HGV’s on weekends might be an idea… though perhaps Friday 1500h to 2200h Sat, Sun & public Hols 0600h-2200h?

or how about enforced no HGV hours 0600 to 0900 and 1600 to 1900h on weekdays – logistics forms would have to work their loading patterns round this, and it would have the effect of enforcing regular driver rest periods

I cant see how a bonfire next to a motorway can in anway shape or form be held responsible for a car crash. scapegoat for people who refuse to take responsibility for the vehicle they’re driving anyone?

According to meteorologists the smoke particulates cause water vapour to condense around them if air temperatures are right, ie after heavy rain with a temperature drop, which is what was happening here. Several drivers said it was perfectly clear, then it was like someone poured emulsion paint over the windscreen. It appears that there was no gradual mistiness getting thicker, which allows drivers time to adjust their speed, just everything in front suddenly disappeared into a solid white wall. I’d love to know exactly how all the experts on here would cope if the nice clear
road in front became a solid white wall at 60/70mph, containing several jackknifed 40ton trucks. ‘Course, it wouldn’t ever affect TJ ‘cos he don’t drive. He might, however, find himself along with thirty-odd people in a coach under the same conditions…
Everyone on here’s a frackin’ expert.

countzero – by having the appropriate gap between them and the vehicle in front and by slowing when the visibility fell.

Dancake – Member

56mph isnt it? Anyway the reason they overtake is if the lift off the loud pedal to slow behind something, they will loose lots of speed and spend a lot of time and effort waggling gear sticks to get back up to speed. Its not like in a car where you can lift off and then accelerate away again.

If speed restriced vehicles were banned from the middle lane, maybe there would be incentive to sort the speed limiters out?

and if cars where limited to 70mph, then things would be better for drivers of Lcv,s, who cant accelerate past their limited speed to get out of the way for car drivers who cant and dont obe the speed limits.

anyway this arguing is pointless, everyone will forget until the next time and nothing will change. What is certain is there are 7 people who have died.

its not lots of speed though. Its a tiny difference that means the manoever takes hundereds of hundreds of yards to excecute. 1 person’s actions affects scores behind

If speed restriced vehicles were banned from the middle lane, maybe there would be incentive to sort the speed limiters out?

maybe someone can explain it better than I can but you clearly arent getting it.
Anway as we all know lorries are restricted to 56mph and cannot use the outside lane maybe we should drive accordingly rather than moan about what they do.

20 October 2008: Family-of-six, including four children, killed in crash involving three lorries and two cars on the M6 in Cheshire

7 May 2007: Six people, including five men travelling home from a stag party, killed on the M25 when the rescue truck carrying their broken-down minibus collides with a lorry in Surrey

10 July 2003: Seven people – including three members of the same family – killed when a minibus collides with a car on the M56 in Greater Manchester

10 March 1997: Three people killed and 160 vehicles involved in a pile-up on the M42 in fog

17 November 1993: Crash on the M40 leaves 12 children dead when their minibus collides with a maintenance vehicle near Warwick

March 13 1991: Ten people killed, and 25 injured, in a 51-car pile-up in foggy conditions on the M4 near Hungerford

28 October 1987: Diesel tank truck collides with stationary traffic on the M61 near Preston, Lancashire, killing 12 people

21 October 1985: Coach collides with stationary traffic on the M6, in Lancashire, between Preston and Lancaster, killing 13 people and injuring 34

27 May 1975: Coach carrying pensioners comes off Dibbles Bridge, near Hebden, North Yorkshire, killing 32 people, in Britain’s worst ever road accident

All somebodies freinds,family,workmates,neighbours

About 20 years ago there was a big pile up on the M4 in thick fog. The cause people driving too fast and to close together. So they interview some tit on the news and his excuse for not slowing down and driving to suit the prevailing conditions, “the police hadn’t turned on the matrix signs to say it was foggy”. Like the white fluffy stuff reducing visibility wasn’t a big f***ing clue..

People who drive like c0cks will usually use any excuse to justify the way they drive.

Several drivers said it was perfectly clear, then it was like someone poured emulsion paint over the windscreen. It appears that there was no gradual mistiness getting thicker

That is what happened in Wells that evening. Instant P-soup, clearing completely in 2 hours. Very likely it was a contributory factor.

very sad for all concerned, shout out to the emergency staff, must be fekin horrific turning up to see that even if it is your job :O

i’ll never forget years ago, only been driving a few years, went to london to see a gig and was driving back to wales, came up the slip road onto the motorway and hit a thick wall of fog just after pulling onto the motorway itself! i sh*t myself and instinct told me to keep moving, after about 15 long seconds it cleared… i still think back was that the correct procedure?

should i have pulled over to the hard shoulder?

what would have you done?

paulosoxo – Member

How about if you had left an adequate gap, but your brakes failed or you had a blow out under braking. What about if you had a heart attack at the wheel?

Sure, that can happen, but here it would have had to have happened simultanously to about 30 vehicles.

It’d be nice if after something like this, people did have a bit of a think about their driving, I think most of us are guilty of driving too close together at times. I know I am.

maybe we should drive accordingly rather than moan about what they do.

So is this your fix. Some training 😯

there will always be bad or distracted drivers, or those who simply make bad decisions. People need protecting from themselves. If that means babysitting drivers so be it.

Drove on the M5 today just 20 miles northbound from the accident, far too many people still driving like tools for my liking.

I don’t think the people that ‘need’ to learn something from Friday night actually will 🙁

I see the plod are talking about a thick bank of smoke across the motorway. Still think this is a bit unlikely. It is hard to imagine that smoke from a bonfire being that thick. Its far more likely, as Countzero says that particulates from the fire along with the thermal mixing caused a local fog bank.

RE: the bonfire smoke. I’ve watched a firework display from an adjacent field, down wind, on a foggy night. We couldn’t actually see the fireworks and we ended up separated in the field unable to see our own hands at arms length. I can fully believe it may have been a contributory factor. There was no bonfire on that particular night, it was the firework smoke.

If there was “a big white wall” in front of me I’d be hoping that by looking far enough ahead I’d see it before I got there. Call it a stab in the dark, but things like cats eyes failing to reflect light, armco barriers disappearing into mist, not being able to see any vehicles in the distance, not being able to see any stars or lighting – oh and the presence of a BFO bank of fog/smoke might inform the alert driver that something was not quite right in the distance.

mrmo – Member
We accept that deaths on the road are inevitable, that over 3000 people are killed each year is unfortunate but it is a price deemed acceptable for the freedom vehicles offer

1850 people in 2010. Still far too many of course.
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/statistics/releases/reported-road-casualties-gb-main-results-2010/reported-road-casualties-gb-main-results-2010.pdf

maybe we should drive accordingly rather than moan about what they do.
So is this your fix. Some training

there will always be bad or distracted drivers, or those who simply make bad decisions. People need protecting from themselves. If that means babysitting drivers so be it.

What the **** are you talking about?

people stating certainties now are stupid irrespective of whether they turn out to be right.

good article here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/06/government-intensely-relaxed-traffic-deaths

As details of the victims are now starting to come out, disabled man trapped in burning car etc, can we just close this thread now and have a bit of respect.

The firework display in question didn’t actually have a bonfire.
A spokeman from the Rugby Club who organised it has been speaking to the local paper today.

Knowing this fact and being from Taunton so knowing the area, etc it seems very unlikely that the display would’ve caused any major visibilty issues to me.

More likely drivers being distracted by the fireworks and losing concentration for a few seconds.

Obviously not