The Left

So thatchers death is a bit of a watershed moment really, end of an era, which, ultimately when you think about really signaled the death of the left as any kind of political force in britain. for the last 35 years.

So what’s the way forward?

For me it’s independence, but in lieu of that, is there any way back for a left to rule in modern day britain? I think it’s universally agreed that that isn’t labour, thatcher destroyed them. So, is that it, is it gone and we’re held to ransom by business for the rest of our days?

As, as good as thatchers death is, it also has a tinge of sadness to it also, ie the utter failure of the left to mount a decent challenge.

(btw when I say left, I’m not aligning to any particular group, I mean in terms of the goverment ruling for the benefit of the people and workers rather than business and shareholders. )

We tried it and it didn’t work out.

I still think the natural inclination of many parts of this country is to be left leaning.

But as you point out supporters of the left have essentially been robbed of anyone to vote for. All the actual left wing parties – Socailist Worker, Scottish Socialists, Respect are almost a lunatic fringe.

The only semi-mainstream leftwing party is the Greens, but they are pretty much starting from zero – well 1 MP in the UK.

So either the Labour party rediscovers its routes (un-effing-likely) or the Left starts from scratch in the UK.

Of course as you pointed out Scotland might have another way but that’s another topic

The Left failed to redefine itself. The world has moved on from Socialism vs unconstrained Capitalism as the only alternatives. You could have a capitalist economy with fairness enforced through progressive taxation to afford a decent social welfare system eg Sweden.

So what’s the way forward?

2 responses to this:

1. The way forward as it shall be – the 2 major parties remain in control of the nation despite losing the popular support of the public, and despite party membership figures continuing their downward trend… Nothing changes, except cynicism levels, which move into the ‘red for danger’ zone. Fortunately, Spring arrives and voters feel a little happier, although they don’t know why.

2. The way forward as it should be – voters realise en masse that historic affiliations to old party names no longer apply. Major change occurs. Political parties quickly lose their relevance and a new, better system based around direct elector participation takes over.

Second one’s pie in the sky (and I like pie), but it’s the one I’d prefer.

Respect isn’t a leftwing party, just like UKIP and the BNP aren’t rightwing parties. There’s no ideology to any of them and they’d shatter if they ever got power – it’s a batty protest vote, a ragtag of weirdos and the credulous. The Greens are also not a leftwing party (arguably not a party at all, just a pressure group that’s got a handful of representatives), and are also a protest vote, although they’re less sinister.

I view myself as pretty neutral. I favour some left wing policies and some right.
The only way I’d ever vote for labour is if they divorced the unions. This leaves me with the tories or lib dems…….not exactly spoilt for choice. In fact no choice. I’d like to vote, but I think I’ll have to abstain again.

I had a notion for a very similar thread, so I’ll post my question on here…

There are a number of very eloquent, well-researched and persuasive “left-wing” posters on STW. They seem to spend a lot of time arguing their case in the various political threads. Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don’t know it?

Edit (having just read that back): that’s not designed as criticism btw. I guess I’m just wondering when/if those of a left-wing persuasion ever see the UK changing and if they would leave to somewhere more in tune with their thinking if it doesn’t.

I’m interested in the People’s Assembly idea. Will be going along in June to see what it’s all about.

seosamh77, what do you mean by independance?

scotroutes – Member
Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don’t know it?

If there was an alternative to recommend you may have a point, but what can you say? Vote for…? I don’t even know who to vote for anymore 😥

I only know a few left wing people. One couple joined the local conservative club because the bar prices were better. Another sent their son to a private school.

I think socialism is a lot like communism, fine in theory, but never works in practice.

Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don’t know it?

The UK electoral system is broken – there’s no point trying to influence most voters because the votes of most voters don’t matter to who gets elected. However I am doing quite a bit on the independence issue.

if they would leave to somewhere more in tune with their thinking if it doesn’t.

My GF is talking about emigrating if we don’t get independence in 2014 – Sweden is top of her list 😉

I view myself as pretty neutral.

😯

Oh in that case and by that yardstick I view myself as fairly neutral

The only way I’d ever vote for labour Tory is if they divorced the unions rich

See convincing innit

Self awareness fail

Is there not a case that they should be spending their energies off-forum, trying to influence Mr & Mrs Average UK Voter rather than the few hundred regular posters on here (most of whom seem to have very set positions)? Perhaps some of them already are and we don’t know it?

Some of us do for sure but do you not think we realise we are not reflective of society in general. Bit hard to fight the power of the media from my soap box 😉

FWIW there is the same number of right wing ones on here they just never seem to get the same attention – probably a fair point that we never STFU

f they would leave to somewhere more in tune with their thinking if it doesn’t.

Ever thought if suggesting the right move to america wher ethey are fre eof state inteverntion in the BBC and the NHS is hated and the market adored?

For some reason the lefties [ scotsroutes nothing personal i know you are not having a dig] get this dig of “hypocrisy”

Bit like when flashy used to point out the computer was made by a private company/capitalism whilst ignoring the fact the internet came from the state but him using it was not etc

I don’t even know who to vote for anymore

This. A million times this.

I live in a safe Labour seat, so it’s pointless voting for anyone except our pretty nasty MP.

None of the parties are appealing to me.

But, as my old grandad once said to me, people died for my right to vote. I’d love to know who these people were, but I have some sense of obligation. So, against my better principles, I voted Lib last election. That turned out well… 👿

shermer75 – Member
seosamh77, what do you mean by independance?

in scotland, not really wanting to turning this into a SI debate though, I’d prefer if it stayed routed in the uk.

Aaah..

Be the alternative?

Brilliant.

The UK electoral system is broken – there’s no point trying to influence most voters because the votes of most voters don’t matter to who gets elected. However I am doing quite a bit on the independence issue.

It’s not broken at all.
It’s designed like that.
So it fulfils it’s brief perfectly.

I’m a passionate believer in voting even if you are in a safe cosntituancy. A good example of why I think this would be the recent Eastleigh by election. The liberals won the seat but everyone was talking about how UKIP, not the Tories, came second and prompted much anti-Europe rhetoric from the Government. So, in that sense, UKIP had very much scored a victory without even having an MP elected.

If you’re not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

If you’re not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

That’s not how I see it.

Voting only makes sense if there is somebody/something to vote for.
Being the alternative is almost impossible without the apparatus to make it happen.
No right to complain? Not having a proper electoral voice is reason enough to complain, I would think.

This is how nature works regardless of who you are and the part of the world you are in … maggots! The lot of you!

Lack of common sense is the major problem for all political parties.

The politicians on the other hand are all career politicians – in for themselves – fame, power and wealth or perhaps orgies …

As for the people, they had never had it so good since WWI/WWII relying on handouts and with the belief that they are entitled to everything without working for it. No more self reliance particularly in the developed nation … which developing nation is trying to emulate … bunch of tossers.

Then we have all those micro managements going on in the society – local councils etc trying to run our lives. The minor bureaucrats with powers getting to their heads that sometimes can be rather anal about how we live.

Family life. Well, we let the society deal with out off springs … We blame the govt etc apart from ourselves and we rely on the govt to look after our family … yes, blame the govt. Maggots!

Regarding rights and wrongs … we are always right. Dammit! When do we learn that we are maggots?

etc …

oldnpastit – Member
If you’re not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

what nonsense.

Oh in that case and by that yardstick I view myself as fairly neutral

You know absolutely nothing about me. My views are far, far more balanced than yours are. At least I am open minded enough to see all sides rather than follow a tired party line. Your view of the world is very narrow and prescribed. I’d be surprised if you didn’t refer to the socialists handbook in order to have your opinion told to you.

Self awareness fail

Not on my end, son. And I agree with your comments RE the tories and big business, but this discussion is about the left.

If you’re not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

depends whether you have a spare £500 and time for campaigning

I sit in the same space as Wrecker and share a similar level of frustration.
I love camo16’s option 2 and struggle to see another way forward that could engage the people of the UK if it stays as it is, unless we have another extreme party/leader that polarises the public, but I suspect that apathy may have the upper hand.

I love camo16’s option 2 and struggle to see another way forward that could engage the people of the UK if it stays as it is, unless we have another extreme party/leader that polarises the public, but I suspect that apathy may have the upper hand.

Ta!

I had an idea a while back to establish the ‘No Parties Party’, whose strapline would be ‘tough on political parties; tough on the causes of political parties’.

I still believe that it would be possible and desirable to replace local MPs with true electoral representatives, whose primary task would be to manage an interactive feedback system that takes in constituents’ views on important policy items. Feedback would then be transferred to Parliament… making the representative a real representative, not a representative of a political party.

Elections would still take place, but the Cabinet members would be elected directly… in which case each Minister would have to prove their knowledge/competence for their chosen Cabinet position.

Interactivity and proper accountability – me likey!

oldnpastit – Member
If you’re not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

Since ’45, our political system has proved that it can only produce two outcomes. Labour or Conservative governments.
This is despite the fact that at every election, more people have voted against the “winning” party that then formed the next government than for it.
As an example, 65% of the people voted against Labour in 2005, but they still won 55% of the seats in parliament.
Tends to back up bencooper’s comment that:

there’s no point trying to influence most voters because the votes of most voters don’t matter to who gets elected.

Oldanpastit,
Would you care to explain how going through with this pointless ritual somehow confers on a person “the right to complain”, as opposed to legitimising an electoral system that can ignore 65% of the voters votes.

http://www.politicsresources.net/area/uk/uktable.htm

Oh in that case and by that yardstick I view myself as fairly neutral

You know absolutely nothing about me.
You post om here and I quoted what you said – seems like i know at least something- namely you think you are neutral

My views are far, far more balanced than yours are.

Well you would say that[ hell you may even be right [ well you are right i meant correct:wink: ] but i never claimed to be neutral.

At least I am open minded enough to see all sides rather than follow a tired party line.

yes the union line clearly showed how open minded you are on all issues and not following any sort of party line
Shall we discuss Northern Ireland then next to see your neutrality?

Your view of the world is very narrow and prescribed.

I never claimed to be anything other than a leftie as i am aware of this thanks.

I’d be surprised if you didn’t refer to the socialists handbook in order to have your opinion told to you.

I would be surprised if you replied without an insult

Self awareness fail

Not on my end, son.
Ok it is fails now
Son , Oh bless you wise old man 🙄

As for you for you being neutral it is a silly as me claiming I am.
As for defending it here have a spade I dont even want to google for an image

Totally agree with oldnpastit, there is no excuse for not voting if you really don;t agree wit any party then at least spoil the paper as that will be recorded. There is always a comical candidate so vote for them as a protest vote.

The other thing to remember is that is you don’t like something complain to your MP. I complained to my local MP about how crap the tax credits system is and got a reply from them that they would bring it up with the minister and also a direct response from HMRC. They might not make any changes but at least they then directly know people are unhappy.

oldnpastit – Member
If you’re not going to vote and are too proud to be the alternative yourself you have no right to complain about the outcome.

I will not vote for the least worst. What’s pride got to do with it?

As I said I’m interested in seeing if the People’s Assembly gets off the ground as I think that could be (or be the spark that gets people considering) an alternative.

The other thing to remember is that is you don’t like something complain to your MP.

Sorry, but 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 and 😆

Tried it, several times.

Louis Ellman, our local MP, doeth not do quick replies.

In fact, she rarely replies at all.

And when she does, the original question is simply passed on to someone else, who fails to answer the question.

Clearly, this voter is not high on the Ellman list of priorities.

It’s not broken at all.
It’s designed like that.
So it fulfils it’s brief perfectly.

I agree and in every one of the general elections since since the war the majority of the UK public who voted did not vote for the government that won those elections.

yes the union line clearly showed how open minded you are on all issues and not following any sort of party line
Shall we discuss Northern Ireland then next to see your neutrality?

The union line was (as explained) due to this being a discussion on the left. As you conveniently omitted to quote; I agreed with your correction regarding the tories.
NI has nothing to do with left/right. Not all of us view EVERYTHING as left vs right. Some of us form our own opinions based on facts and experience.
You can regard me as right/left/whatever, I really couldn’t care less. To do so would just be plainly incorrect, but crack on if it makes you feel less of an extremist.

I would be surprised if you replied without an insult

You are really in no position to make a statement like that. It’s certainly not me who needs the shovel.

woody74 – Member
Totally agree with oldnpastit, there is no excuse for not voting if you really don;t agree wit any party then at least spoil the paper as that will be recorded. There is always a comical candidate so vote for them as a protest vote.

The other thing to remember is that is you don’t like something complain to your MP. I complained to my local MP about how crap the tax credits system is and got a reply from them that they would bring it up with the minister and also a direct response from HMRC. They might not make any changes but at least they then directly know people are unhappy.

Prostest votes/spoiled papers don’t mean jack. I think dwindling voter numbers speak louder.

My MP is Fracis **** Maude, never received as much as an automated response when (attempted) contacting him (email and letter).

Hasn’t the left been in power for the last 20 years? or are you talking the about the authoritarian left operating so well in NK?

Personally I don’t see a proper left wing party being electable in this country – almost certainly the reason nuLab arrived on the scene as they came to the same conclusion. What would a proper left wing govt stand for? What would the policies be that would impact us citizens? How would they change the country for the better? When we have answers to those questions lets see how many would be happy to vote for it. Although I was only a youngster at the time the 70s felt like an utterly miserable time to be living in the UK from a political perspective and that is the abiding image people like me have of what a socialist govt means in this country. And it is for that reason that would struggle to vote for one. What nuLab did was to position a party that looked like it had socialist ideals but was still a centrist party so not too extreme and thus looked like a palatable option to vote for.

The trouble with a lot of leftish ideaologies is they are based on the perception that we can control human societies, fairness in distribution of resources etc. and everyone will be happy. Is very laudable but fundamentally flawed. At an indivdual level people will agree it’s right, at a herd level the herd instincts and behaviours kick in. Most people in our society are acquisitive to some level. As they gain possessions and wealthy they have earnt (let’s assume for a moment we’re talking about people who have legitimately earned their wealth) they need state support less and are also less willing to see what they have earned go to other people. It’s fairly natural.

A a societal level people aren’t on a whole that alturistic. We need controlled capitalsim to encourage people to participate in society. What they have to put in to support others has to be balanced with what they keep.

The two things that we don’t seem to be able to get right is the balance of between what is earnt and what is returned right (40% tax on slaries over £42k is ridiculous, you can’t even buy an average price house (£238k according to the BBC) at x 3.5 that income, you need to be earning £68k to afford what used to be considered a sensible mortage multiple). We also seem to fail to curb the excesses of the capitalist system, either at personal or corporate level.

We need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage level and reduce the cost of living, reduce VAT, allow house prices to return to affordable levels (and that won’t happen through house building but by restricting the amount people can borrow). This will bring most people into the group that contribute more to society than they take out, meaning more money for those unable to contribute.

That only leaves the very difficult question of what to do with the very small but problematic group who won’t take part in society, the Mick Philpotts of this world (and that is a tiny proportion of people on benefits). Spending large amounts of money and resources on these people doesn’t work, that’s been proved, redirecting those resources to the majority would have much better results.