The free movement of people in Europe

UKIP lives and breathes on mis information like this.

Or like this and this ?

Freedom of employment within the EU made sense when the EU was small, it makes very little sense now.

Looking at historic statistics re immigration benefits makes little sense IMO as it fails to take into account the changing nature of the immigration and also these stats include many workers from outside the EU who have to apply for work visas and who generally are highly skilled (and thus paid) making a big contribution. What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner’s post early in the thread).

What needs to be remembered is that immigrants from outside EU countries coming into the UK outstrip those from within the EU.

Lets see it for what it is. A right wing government driven by fear of UKIP splitting their vote, blaming those damn socialists in the EU and their “ideals”, while perpetuating the myth that they are “un-elected”.

What makes it even funnier, is we need copious amounts of immigration for economic growth, IF we continue down the economic path we have chosen. Being ultra capitalists, insisting on the free movement of virtually everything, yet trying to stem one of the items required for it to work=does not compute.

This will damage our economic prospects, just as leaving the EU will.

What needs to be remembered is that immigrants from outside EU countries coming into the UK outstrip those from within the EU.

It’s not about numbers it’s about control and selection.

BTW is that actually true, do you have a link ? I know over 10 years since the Polish where admitted to the EU they have gone from no-where to the UK’s number 2 nationality.

Census InfoGraphic

Or like this and this ?

Journalism is a good substitute for an evidence based microeconomics paper that THM is hopefully basing his assertions on?

[/quote]More non-EU citizens come to the UK than EU citizens. On average, since 2004 170,000 EU citizens have migrated to the UK each year, compared to an average of 295,000 from outside the EU.

Can be read here.

Thank’s El bent. As the article says EU migration is rising as the EU expands. As the table I linked to from the census shows we still have large migration from Commonwealth countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh but it’s the incremental effect of uncontrolled immigration from the expanding EU which worries me

Tom, the vast majority of people don;t read economics papers, they make their mind up from their personal experiences. I think it’s a mistake to think the changes in voting behaviour are to do with what people have read in the paper, most people don’t read a paper or even listen to the news.

Tom_W1987 – Member
Do you feel that multiculturalism has ruined your life personally?

Directly, very little, not nearly so much as those not wealthy enough to live outside of the areas that the greater part of the experiment has been foisted upon. And before you decide that by those people I mean white working class (and possibly racist) I’d point out that there are a great many communities of mixed races and cultures who even now are suffering from having large numbers of immigrants turning their neighbourhoods into the third world.

We’re all the poorer for it. In the relentless pursuit of economic growth, quality of life has been sacrificed. We all, apart from the very, very rich, suffer the effects of an infrastructure that wasn’t fit to cope with demand 20 years ago, let alone today.

The funny thing about this whole issue is how it confuses party politics and “normal” economic persuasions (to the extent that they exist beyond the rhetoric).

The only two academic studies that I have seen of CMDs net immigration stats point to the fact that, if successful, this would add to the tax burden. The NIESR version suggested that the impact would be “significantly” higher taxes. So we have slightly panicked Tories responding with policies that would increase the tax burden. Most bizarre….!

Ditto on public services – funded by taxation (the give away on this issue! ) – and immigration increases tax revenues (not the opposite) and on average (ignoring the BS headlines) immigrants are no heavier on demand but actually increase supply (NHS labour). Net, net immigration a positive not negative for public services.

Of course, averages ignore the impact at the individual level but we don’t set policy to suit individuals. It’s the net effect that matters more.

Another good FT article on all is today from Rachman which follows the Ganesh one yesterday/today. The French and the Brits arguing against two fundamental issues or required reduction in national sovereignty for Europe to work ie, the French and the budget and the Brits and our borders. Both represent major threats and challenges to Europe.

As the table I linked to from the census shows we still have large migration from Commonwealth countries like India, Pakistan and Bangladesh but it’s the incremental effect of uncontrolled immigration from the expanding EU which worries me

Eh? Migrants from India, Pakistan etc, usually bring their families with them, how can this not be a concern for you?

And +1 on what THM said. There has been some very good articles on this in the less “drama Queen” type rags in the last few days.

@El Bent – at least there is some form of control, there are rules and criteria. Also on balance I would rather see people from Commonwealth countries

We’re all the poorer for it. In the relentless pursuit of economic growth, quality of life has been sacrificed. We all, apart from the very, very rich, suffer the effects of an infrastructure that wasn’t fit to cope with demand 20 years ago, let alone today.

They turn run down working class areas into looking like third world scenes simply because they are brown and that’s what white people are used to seeing in slums on tv.

As we’ve seen, we’ve explained, we would all be a lot worse off if we had less immigrants.

It baffles me that in the face of figures that’ve been scientifically and independently collected, peer reviewed and generally proven to be right jambalaya can still be ignorant of the fact that immigration is, as a general rule, a good thing. Bigotry abounds!

I didn’t quote that from Jamby, I reckon he opposes European immigration for slightly different reasons to Digga. Maybe.

Tom and munro, I’m against uncontrolled immigration from anywhere. Not biggotted at all, people are welcome to apply from anywhere and our laws on discrimination will ensure all applications are reviewed equally. I’ve lived and worked in other countries and would happily do so again but I’d expect to apply for a work visa. People should do the same here.

Tom_W1987 – Member
We’re all the poorer for it. In the relentless pursuit of economic growth, quality of life has been sacrificed. We all, apart from the very, very rich, suffer the effects of an infrastructure that wasn’t fit to cope with demand 20 years ago, let alone today.
They turn run down working class areas into looking like third world scenes simply because they are brown and that’s what white people are used to seeing in slums on tv.

As we’ve seen, we’ve explained, we would all be a lot worse off if we had less immigrantsColour and third world are not the same thing. Do not put words like that into my mouth.

Furthermore, in many places, locals whose families have lived in communities for generations have sided with more recent immigrants in their criticism of immigration policy and the downward spiral of filth and backwardness experienced.

Furthermore, in many a couple of places places, locals whose families have lived in communities for generations have sided with more recent immigrants in their criticism of immigration policy and the downward spiral of filth and backwardness experienced. ethnic minorities that they historically dislike

It baffles me that in the face of figures that’ve been scientifically and independently collected, peer reviewed and generally proven to be right jambalaya can still be ignorant of the fact that immigration is, as a general rule, a good thing.

It might be good for GDP but not necessarily good for every person esp those with no / low skills who will see downward pay trends….

It might be good for GDP but not necessarily good for every person esp those with no / low skills who will see downward pay trends….

Oh well.

Social darwinism and all that, that tenant of right wing ideology. 😆

Well, maybe they should move to Poland. Sounds like there’ll be some gaps in the low-end labour market there. They are free to do so, thanks to the excellent free-movement policy the EU has so if you can’t find a job where you are then you can move elsewhere.

[/facetious]

Also,

So Tom_W1987 this is not a problem in your high-handed opinion? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24949347

Should all these locals put up and shut up? Are both Labour and the Lib Dems wrong to be addressing this?

In my opinion, if you let enough desperately poor, badly educated people – from whatever background – into any area, within a welfare-sate type economy, you will see a negative effect on that area and the lives of those in and around the place. It is very very difficult to extrapolate any economic cost or benefit to the exercise, but the downside in terms of quality of life is pretty straightforward, as is the potential for civil unrest.

Problem is these “you’re shit” people live here and we have to consider them part of society (as they are), so just saying ‘lump it scum bags’ isn’t going to work long term (unless you plan to round them all up and dump them on the Isle of White and then nuke the place).

I lived in Sheffield when that happened and as far as I could tell there wasn’t any issue, it was media hysteria.

…You’re shit

What rubbish! No idea on the impact but agents sort out the contacts, English isn’t a rare skill – I had some Poles (a cleaner and a builder) living with me around 10 years ago who could speak fine. Money? They had some.

Unfortunately those Poles were kicked out of the country for stealing stuff but I’m sure most are fine!

In my opinion, if you let enough desperately poor, badly educated people – from whatever background – into any area, within a welfare-sate type economy, you will see a negative effect on that area and the lives of those in and around the place. It is very very difficult to extrapolate any economic cost or benefit to the exercise, but the downside in terms of quality of life is pretty straightforward, as is the potential for civil unrest.

Again, as has been shown, we in this country would be far worse off without unskilled immigration. We simply don’t have enough young people of working age paying taxes, the fact that some people lose out is simply part of life, there are always trade offs.

Tom_W1987 – Member
Again, as has been shown, we in this country would be far worse off without unskilled immigration.

Here I agree with you 100%. But allowing and enabling unskilled immigration is not the same as wholesale immigration, from regions where education and living standards fall way beyond the norm here in the UK, to the point of creating ghettos.

munrobiker – Member
I lived in Sheffield when that happened and as far as I could tell there wasn’t any issue, it was media hysteria

So two of the main political parties saw fit to issue statements on something that you say never happened? Oh really.

unskilled immigration

Don’t we have a lot of unskilled unemployed people here already? Is it that they don’t want to work or can’t find work?

Here I agree with you 100%. But allowing and enabling unskilled immigration is not the same as wholesale immigration, from regions where education and living standards fall way beyond the norm here in the UK, to the point of creating ghettos.

Fair enough Digga.

footflaps – Member

It might be good for GDP but not necessarily good for every person esp those with no / low skills who will see downward pay trends….

So the question is, are you against all the other things that drive down salaries by much more? If you see low wages as a problem, let’s raise wages, let’s not blame immigrants for it. The minimum wage is still less than the living wage, the economy we’re told is recovering but salaries aren’t and even when they do, there’ll be no correction- nobody that accepted pay freezes (ie, real world cuts) or cuts or hour reduction because “there is no alternative” will see a compensating increase when the companies are doing better.

If you see low wages as a problem, let’s raise wages

I’d love to.

let’s not blame immigrants for it.

I’m not blaming anyone, but if you increase the pool of labour faster than the economy is growing (in any market), it will drive down wages for that labour pool.

NW, falling wages reflect our weak productivity record. Raising wages while productivity continues to fall merely makes us uncompetitive with the obvious knock on effects. But your point about other factors is valid. Immigration pales into insignificance in relation to other factors that determine UK wages. It’s an easy, but false, excuse.

Footflaps, good job that isn’t happening then. Don’t forget the demand side as well. Immigration affects both sides of the equation which is why net, net, immigration has a positive impact on wages in the UK.

Good article on this in Today’s Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/22/wisbech-immigration-politicians-david-cameron-ukip-eu-exit

Footflaps, good job that isn’t happening then. Don’t forget the demand side as well. Immigration affects both sides of the equation which is why net, net, immigration has a positive impact on wages in the UK.

Have you got a reference for this? Not read anything saying immigration has increased wages, nor heard any economists saying this….

Yes.

I have not read any that say otherwise

You have…me

TBF, the data is a little mixed. There are plenty of studies on the positive impact of immigration on average wages for the reasons I have already given – largely the increase in demand for labour that the likes of UKIP like to forget. At the lower end of the wage scale the picture is more mixed. However, where it points to downward pressure on low wages the hit is taken mainly by existing immigrants rather than the “domestic” (for want if a better word) workforce. A substitution of the migrant labour force.

Bottom line there are far more important factors depressing low wages than immigration. Not that UKIP and other xenophones will admit it.

Have you got a reference for this? Not read anything saying immigration has increased wages, nor heard any economists saying this….

To quote Jonathan Portes, director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, The question was:

What were the impacts on jobs and wages of this move?

“The short answer seems to be: not much. Indeed, it’s fairly obvious that wages are generally higher and jobs easier to come by in areas of high immigration like London, while many low migration areas have relatively depressed labour markets. Take Clacton, for example, where the immigrant population is less than half the national average – wages are 20% below the national average, while the proportion of people on benefit is far higher. Of course, this mixes cause and effect. But since the big increase in immigration from the EU in 2004 there have been a number of studies on this topic, using sophisticated econometric techniques to tease out the actual impacts. A government summary of the evidence concluded that there was “little evidence in the literature of a statistically significant impact from EU migration on native employment outcomes”. So it doesn’t appear that they take our jobs. On wages, the picture is more mixed, with some evidence immigration actually pushes wages up overall, while exerting downward pressure on wages for low-skilled workers. But as yet the impacts seem pretty small – certainly compared to other factors such as technological change, employers’ increasing demand for skilled workers and the positive impact of the national minimum wage.”

But how can this be? Isn’t it just the economics of supply and demand – if you increase supply of workers, wages will fall? And if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can’t.

“No. People who say this (and many do) usually don’t actually know or understand basic economics. More immigrant workers does increase the supply of labour. But, because immigrants earn money, spend money, set up businesses and so on, it also increases the demand for labour. And it’s true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can’t take that job – but it doesn’t meant he or she won’t find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration. So immigration may have a negative or positive impact on jobs and wages for British workers; so far, the evidence suggests that the direct impacts have been rather small.”

IHNRAT but

wrecker – Member
I have no problem with people moving around to find work at all. Many brits did it in the 90s, heading off to Germany.
I’m not happy with any receiving benefits though.

I’m not of the opinion that the vast majority of people come to the UK do so to claim benefits, but if the above is true then they won’t mind if there are no benefits on offer.

So when would you let someone born overseas claim benefits?

– if they have lived and worked in the UK for 15 yrs and then find themselves temporarily unemployed?
– if they have lived and worked in the UK for 20 yrs, have no surviving close relatives back home and become unable to work through ill health?
– if they have been working here for 3 years, married to a “brit” and they become disabled?
– if they have been working here for 3 years, living with a “brit” and their partner become disabled?
– if they arrived here as a toddler, and grew up here, went to school here and have no memories of their “home country”?
– if they’ve been living here for 10 yrs, married to another “foreigner” who is in low paid work, with 3 children born in this country and they find themselves unemployed or unable to work due to illness?
– if they’ve worked here for 40 yrs and reach retirement age, having been paying UK tax/ni all their working life?
– if their school age / pre-school children were born here and they are widowed?
– if they moved here with their children several years ago, they have now grown up, left home and had “british” grand-children but the grandparents now find themselves out of work, or unfit for work?
– a new parent from overseas who’s british born child has a disability
– a single parent from overseas who’s eldest, foreign born, son has a disability but who has a UK born child too.
– an expectant mother (with foreign born partner) has been working in the UK and is then made redundant when her employer goes bust.
– a 38 yr old who’s been here for 8 yrs and doesn’t get on with his only surviving parent back “home” who finds themselves homeless following the breakdown of a 4 yr relationship.
– a 23 yr old who’s been studying at an English university (paying fees) for three years and planning to stay, had job interviews lined up when they are knocked off their bike by a british driver and will need to spend 4 months recuperating before they can resume seeking work.

I’m not sure if all those DO qualify for benefits but I’m sure some would and most should. As soon as you make a blanket rule as you suggest its easy to think of exceptions. Actually when you start to think about all possible exceptions you can soon find yourself in a situation which probably isn’t a million miles from the status quo!

No shit Sherlock. I wonder why there aren’t many immigrants in Clacton?

Not going to argue with him on the general economic stuff, but surely it’s clear which way round the cause and effect is here?

@footflaps – yes a very good article, thanks for posting I missed it yesterday.

Seems to be a lack of a European identity on this forum! I guess ultimately that’s what this comes down to. Whether you see Europeans as foreigners or not.

Personally, I don’t.