The free movement of people in Europe

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  • The free movement of people in Europe
  • grum
    Member

    Where are the facts? Is nothing without a source.

    The link I already posted has the source:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-25880373
    http://www.cream-migration.org/publ_uploads/CDP_22_13.pdf

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZdb2buU_c[/video]

    I think I’ve got it.

    If we turn this country into an isolated hateful bigotted intolerant backward fear driven loathsome shithole then none of the buggers will want to come in the first place!

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    It’s actually about 13.1 million Brits living abroad, not the 5.5 million quoted in that video. So the immigration number is dwarfed even more.

    Anyway

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_iBOEDb7PM[/video]

    Free movement? You get nowt for free…

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9756882/NHS-spends-11-million-on-interpreters.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16905491

    Dunno which one to believe if either. Do we have more immigrants now than in 2012 & are immigrants in general ‘paying their keep’?

    It’s actually about 13.1 million Brits living abroad, not the 5.5 million quoted in that video.

    Why’s that then? Does the weather have anything to do with it or are they spread more through eastern Europe/ middle east rather than Spain & France?

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    The Spanish government spend about 250m a year on British pensioners, despite insurance. At least most of our immigrants are of working age as opposed to being senile leeches.

    I suspect not. As pointed out already, it isn’t the fault of the EU, its all about Neo-liberal global capitalism. There is a certain irony to its evangelical free-market champions in the Tory Party, and UKIP, the right wing press etc, now rounding on this one particular element of the system they so love, as the cause of all our present woes

    They don’t really believe in anti-immigration policies, they are just pandering to their electorate who don’t think about of have coherent political ideologies. The conservative electorate simply blame immigrants for their own shortcomings, an alibi is an easy and enticing psychological defence for failure. Left wing types tend to blame social problems for their own failings, basically they are two sides of the same coin.

    Why’s that then? Does the weather have anything to do with it or are they spread more through eastern Europe/ middle east rather than Spain & France?

    Eh? They are spread all over the planet. We are a net contributor to the worlds immigration problems πŸ˜†

    munrobiker
    Member

    are immigrants in general ‘paying their keep’?

    Have you read the thread?

    Yes, they ar .

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Also, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that a few of the UKIPing types on here are bordering on being right wing socialists. They tend to support a kind of patriarchal capitalism that is anti-neoliberal, anti-banker and anti-immigration, giving them a sense of security whilst still allowing them to hold affluent aspirations of wealth and success without feeling like they will be “persecuted” by government for doing well. It’s a strange dichotomy but basically anything that is seen as supranational is bad, including business.

    I think some of you will see where I am going with this…. πŸ˜†

    grum
    Member

    UKIP represents a kind of patriarchal capitalism that is anti-neoliberal, anti-banker

    πŸ˜•

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    I edited that a bit, as what I really meant was “UKIP seems to represent to them, based on their own values”…. before anyone thinks I’m confused about what UKIP actually stands for….because in reality UKIP is run by an ex-banker.

    They don’t know it, but they are almost on the same side as the anti-globalisation hippies.

    nick1962
    Member

    A couple of Russian billionaires settling in luxury residences in Mayfair and paying some tax in the UK may offset the potential financial negative impact of the unplanned arrival of several hundred poorly educated,unskilled and in many cases benefit claiming Roma moving into an already deprived area of Glasgow.The effect on local services for Mayfair will probably be zero but for Glasgow the schools,social services and health services are put under intolerable strain.Throw in language and cultural differences, the rapid change in the demographic of the streets and the schools and and you can begin to understand why the resident local population in areas of high migration have concerns.It seems to them that they are the ones paying the highest cost of the EU open borders policy when it appears the London middle class get cheaper more reliable builders and degree level educated multilingual nannies.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    I don’t think we should be legitimising your average oiks frustrations, the biggest burden on the social and health services is all the old people….blaming your failings on old people isn’t in vogue yet though. Maybe we’ll get round to that once we’ve kicked out all the people we don’t like and realise that made the situation worse.

    30 percent of NHS spending is spent on people of 85+ years of age, 48 percent is spent on people of 75+ years of age.

    nick1962
    Member

    I think the biggest burden on the NHS is all the old people…

    And that’s why,understandably, older people from some of the poorer parts of Eastern Europe have migrated to the UK ,usually following their families because they know they can get the health care they need and deserve,especially those from minorities persecuted and discriminated against in their own countries but nevertheless adding to the strain on the NHS.
    And no I don’t have a graph to show the numbers.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    And no I don’t have a graph to show the numbers.

    LOL what a surprise. Do you understand that your assertion doesn’t really hold with the fact that EEA immigrants are massive net contributors.

    deviant
    Member

    The lesson here is that the British are the biggest drain on Britain, probably because lots of them are old and unable to work.

    …it’s the elephant in the room nobody in power wants to talk about.

    We have some mealy mouthed policies about working longer but really the whole system is borked.

    If you’re in full time education until your early 20s, then work from 21 to 60-ish the government will have 40-odd years of tax from you but what happened for the first 20-odd years?….who footed the bill?…parents pay for some of it but the government pays for a whole lot more….then after retiring people are living into their 80s and being supported by the government for 20-odd more years again, that’s 40 years of work but also 40 years of not working….and it’s the 20 years post retirement at the end that costs so much with medication, care costs, pensions etc etc.

    We are living too long….and in our latter years our quality of life is poor, very very poor, there’s nothing we can do about that….its just called ageing, an 80 year old frail body and confused mind is good for nothing….but we still pump meds, send carers round 4 times a day and push food into these people to keep them ‘living’….most of the elderly i see havent left the house in years, the upstairs f their homes are redundant, they’ve been living downstairs in their front room with a triangle of existence between the bed, the armchair and the commode….nice.

    Kill me before it gets to that stage.

    That is the reality of the UK’s demographic at the moment, for the first time in recorded history the over 60s now outnumber those under 16…that is frankly terrifying, there is no younger generation coming through to pay taxes and support it’s elders….this is something else that needs clarifying as most people havent got a clue, your pension contributions arent for you, you are paying for the generation currently drawing a pension….when it’s your turn the costs will be met by the generation behind you and so on and so forth….yes thats right, it is remarkably like a pyramid scheme isnt it?!….totally dependent on a larger generation coming through each time.

    Here’s another one, the over 85s are the fastest growing group in society…again, the reality of this is horrendous….of course it doesnt stop the government, the pharmaceutical companies and everybody else telling you that your retirement will be wonderful and you’ll be riding your bike and walking the dogs, playing with the grandkids in your 80s etc etc.

    You wont, you’ll be a crippled, confused, malnourished, incontinent burden.

    ….now i’ve written that i can see why none of the major political players want to tackle the issue.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Yup, I’ll blow my brains up a wall at a certain age unless transhumanism kicks off in a big way.

    I like to think that we can solve our problems with diligence in the areas of science and technology, always keep moving forward, never back. Otherwise it’s all more pointless than it already was and a little less fun.

    nick1962
    Member

    Do you understand that your assertion doesn’t really hold with the fact that EEA immigrants are massive net contributors.

    Err… please read my earlier post.My point,which I thought was clear was not about the overall net contribution but the effect locally on the ground where it really matters for most people.I am all for the free movement of labour but unexpected, unplanned rapid influxes of migrants into some communties means there can be a shortfall of resources in that community.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    What I think you meant is that they can’t look after all these young hard working tax paying immigrants because the beds are all full of old people…. πŸ˜†

    You did say this though

    And that’s why,understandably, older people from some of the poorer parts of Eastern Europe have migrated to the UK

    The graphs I posted, in the absence of data on the age of EEA immigrants and their use of the NHS, likely don’t support the notion that this is happening on any significant level.

    nick1962
    Member

    The graphs I posted in the absence of data on the age of EEA immigrants and their use of the NHS, likely don’t support the notion that this is happening on any significant level.

    I don’t doubt you or the overall figures.I do know that the extended families that moved into certain parts of the UK brought with them economically inactive older family members who have made no contribution to the treasury and are unlikely to ever do so.If you think we can’t afford to support UK pensioners who paid into our welfare system throughout their working lives when they were working can we afford to import impoverished pensioners who have paid nothing here? Most UK pensioners who live abroad are putting UK pension money into local economies.No doubt there are pensioners from the more affluent parts of Europe who are residing in the UK and spending their money here.Any chance of a graph? πŸ™‚

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Still, if they are a net benefit it doesn’t matter if a few of them are bringing their extended family along.

    moniex
    Member

    I suppose I have a slightly different view on this matter.

    I am Dutch and have lived in the uk since 1997. I initially moved here to be with a now ex-boyfriend I met whilst on holiday in the uk (music festival, and he had lost his tent). To cut a long story short, ended up marrying my English driving instructor in 2000 and now have 2 sons age 13 and 11.

    When I initially came here, there were 2 choices, for me to move to England or my ex to move to the Netherlands. Most important reason for us going for option 1?

    …… The obvious one: I could speak English and he could not speak Dutch! Simple…..

    I think that may be what makes the uk appealing, and it is something that is somehow never mentioned. A lot of people in Europe (and the rest of the world) speak English, now I am not an expert in history, but I’d say that has something to do with England’s past actions……

    We all would prefer to live somewhere where we can at least speak the language.

    Simone

    I’d say that has something to do with England’s past actions……

    I’d say it has something to do with the United States present actions.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    I’d say it has something to do with the United States present actions.

    LOL when in doubt blame the yanks.

    I think it had everything to do with us, considering the Americans are practically British.

    deviant
    Member

    Ernie, what language do they speak in the US?

    …how did an English speaking US come to be?

    etc etc….lots of people like to play down our funny little island but the spread of the English language has been remarkable.

    *edit, that map is magnificent, gives me wood just looking at it!*

    LOL when in doubt blame the yanks.

    I didn’t realise it was a blame game.

    English became widely spoken in Europe as the United States’s global influence increased and Britain’s global influence diminished.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    etc etc….lots of people like to play down our funny little island but the spread of the English language has been remarkable.

    Remarkable in that it spread via copious amounts of gunpowder, violence and tea.

    pk13
    Member

    Don’t worry I’ve solved it we all move to France it’s larger than the UK. The French can have the south of England to live in.

    nick1962
    Member

    Simone

    The wily Dutch playing the long game,learning English ,moving to the UK years later,changing partners ,getting married, having children,all so you could claim our child benefit πŸ˜‰

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Tom_W1987 – Member

    Still, if they are a net benefit it doesn’t matter if a few of them are bringing their extended family along.

    It does a bit- national benefit doesn’t preclude local problems. Now a cynic might say we should be taking some of that national benefit and applying it to the local problems, but that it’s easier and cheaper to just keep it all and let people blame immigrants locally.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    “Fault” ? English became widely spoken in Europe as the United States global influence and Britain’s global influence diminished.

    I think you fail to recognise the influence of the rest of the British empires influence on Europe’s collective decision to speak English, with our without American influence the go to language to trade with Asia would have been English. Thus this would have propelled the spread of the English language within Europe.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    nick1962 – Member
    A couple of Russian billionaires settling in luxury residences in Mayfair and paying some tax in the UK may offset the potential financial negative impact of the unplanned arrival of several hundred poorly educated,unskilled and in many cases benefit claiming Roma moving into an already deprived area of Glasgow.The effect on local services for Mayfair will probably be zero but for Glasgow the schools,social services and health services are put under intolerable strain.Throw in language and cultural differences, the rapid change in the demographic of the streets and the schools and and you can begin to understand why the resident local population in areas of high migration have concerns.It seems to them that they are the ones paying the highest cost of the EU open borders policy when it appears the London middle class get cheaper more reliable builders and degree level educated multilingual nannies.

    I live in govanhill. I don’t think the problems govanhill has are to do with immigrants, I think its problems are to do with a massive lack of investment and societies general lack of creating communities these days. Tbh I don’t particularly think its much worse than other rough bits of Glasgow with no immigrants.

    Europe’s collective decision to speak English

    What collective decision ?

    I think you fail to recognise that at the height of the British Empire very few people in Europe spoke English as their second language.

    United States global influence is more likely to influence the popularity of English as a second language in Europe than “England’s past actions”.

    Still, if you prefer to think it’s all due to England’s past actions, I can’t see the harm in that.

    deviant
    Member

    Remarkable in that it spread via copious amounts of gunpowder, violence and tea.

    Stop it you’ll send me over the edge, those were the days eh?!…can we go back to that?, didnt the world just run in a better manner when we were in charge?…rule Britannia and all, being British is like winning life’s lottery etc etc….the days of Empire, mmmm.

    digga
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member
    I edited that a bit, as what I really meant was “UKIP seems to represent to them, based on their own values”…. before anyone thinks I’m confused about what UKIP actually stands for….because in reality UKIP is run by an ex-banker.

    They don’t know it, but they are almost on the same side as the anti-globalisation hippies.I think this is highly relevant to many of the problems developed economies are facing. It is not only the anti-globalisation and anti-capitalists who are voicing concerns about the imbalances, but also many of the ultra-wealthy, who feel the whole game is desperately unequal.

    When people of the wealth and importance of Warren Buffet (by no means the only example) say these things, they are not throwaway comments based on greed or envy – these people already has the wealth, so their main motivation (aside from political mischief, which we can’t necessarily discount) must be to try to reduce the gaps in society.

    In just about every mainstream policy and event you see – zero interest rate policy, globalisation, IPOs, wars – it is the elite that are best (if not exclusively) placed to benefit first and most.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    The problem with it digga is that it’s leading to a brand of right wing thought that we haven’t seen since the early 20th century. πŸ˜† 😐 Globalization didn’t really just benefit the elite though, it just didn’t benefit the lower and middle classes of the west as much as they’d like (wanted to have their cake when it came to cheap goods etc but aren’t happy with the side effects) – however it’s benefited everyone else enormously.

    When people of the wealth and importance of Warren Buffet

    I think you missed the point a little, don’t for a second think that Nigel Farrage really actually gives a shit about you. He’s a populist playing a very clever game.

    United States global influence is more likely to influence the popularity of English as a second language in Europe than “England’s past actions”.

    Most of Asia spoke a good deal of English even in the early 20th century, most trade between Europe and Asia would have been conducted in English. Even without American involvement, the fact that India and China were big English speakers would have led to the development of English being the language of trade, certainly no one in Europe would have been trying to learn Hindi or Mandarin as they are fairly hard – Spanish could have been a contender perhaps. American tv shows probably propelled it along a bit.

    digga
    Member

    Tom_W1987 – Member
    The problem with it digga is that it’s leading to a brand of right wing thought that we haven’t seen since the early 20th century.

    Not entirely a bad thing, insomuch as it might put a stop to some of the more ill-advised leftist experiments-at-the-public-expense, such as ‘multiculturalism’, but I’d agree there is a danger that these are also the interests of the worst sort of racists. To be clear though, voting other than UKIP and being a racist are by no means mutually exclusive as the media would have us believe.

    The general public are, as is so often the case (just look at PPI for example) their own worst enemy and tragically myopic where economics and finances are concerned, but there is more and when people like Buffet, Jim Rodgers and Ron Paul are saying all the dice are loaded in favour of the top fraction of a percentile, I have no reason to doubt this.

    jambalaya
    Member

    Freedom of employment within the EU made sense when the EU was small, it makes very little sense now.

    Looking at historic statistics re immigration benefits makes little sense IMO as it fails to take into account the changing nature of the immigration and also these stats include many workers from outside the EU who have to apply for work visas and who generally are highly skilled (and thus paid) making a big contribution. What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner’s post early in the thread).

    badnewz
    Member

    but I’d say that has something to do with England’s past actions……

    It’s unlikely the British Empire would have happened without the Dutch leading the way first.

    Tom_W1987
    Member

    Freedom of employment within the EU made sense when the EU was small, it makes very little sense now.

    Looking at historic statistics re immigration benefits makes little sense IMO as it fails to take into account the changing nature of the immigration and also these stats include many workers from outside the EU who have to apply for work visas and who generally are highly skilled (and thus paid) making a big contribution. What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner’s post early in the thread).

    Ummm, thats exactly what the stats over the previous page took into account. At the end of the day we need lots more young people to stay afloat.

    Not entirely a bad thing, insomuch as it might put a stop to some of the more ill-advised leftist experiments-at-the-public-expense, such as ‘multiculturalism’

    LOL. Yeah resorting to an ideology that left Europe in tatters will cure things! Vast swathes of UKIPers might not be outright KKK style racists but subconsciously they are fully blown fascists, who feel aggrieved by their own failings and circumstance and feel the need to find a scapegoat. Do you feel that multiculturalism has ruined your life personally?

    Ron Paul

    Ron Paul only dislikes illegal immigrants, however he’d like to see massive amounts of unskilled and skilled labour entering the US on temporary work permits. Personally, I think this is a bit rich.

    jambalaya
    What we have now is significant levels of immigration into low paid work driving down wages (as per binner’s post early in the thread).

    Although outside UKIP propaganda and anecdote this does not stand up to scrutiny. Most studies show that the impact of migration on the UK labour market is insignificant on most measures. The impact in wages is mixed and in balance positive for overall wages not negative but with some pressure in low skilled wages. But this pales into insignificance when compared with other factors driving down low-skilled wages.

    UKIP lives and breathes on mis information like this.

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