The free movement of people in Europe

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  • The free movement of people in Europe
  • Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Is this really a problem in England? I can’t for the life of me understand why this is a problem?

    mikewsmith
    Member

    Whats the question?

    Premier Icon MoreCashThanDash
    Subscriber

    The free movement of people in Europe isn’t a problem.

    The perceived issues around it appears to be a problem for an increasing number of disenfranchised voters.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Whats the question?

    The free movement of people in Europe
    Is this really a problem in England?

    To answer the OP.
    Not at the moment, no.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    Tories, waffling on about curbing immigration from Europe. Basically undermining the best thing about Europe.

    Do they really think restrictions would only work one way?

    Meh, I think it depends on the industry you work in if you see it as a problem or not. I know of plenty of people who believe their wages are not going up because of cheap immigrant labour. The fact that their wages might not be going up due to other factors does not get in the way of a tabloid headline or populist politicians.

    In my line of work its not a problem and beneficial – we send consultants to the continent and free movement of people without concern about work visas means more business for us – its a two way street.

    Junkyard
    Member

    In the north of England most areas have a reasonable percentage of eastern Europeans living and working there. We have a Polish shop and food in supermarkets for this community
    Whether this is a problem or not depends on many factors.
    IMHO folk like to blame them, and the EU, for the issue associated with global capitalism.

    mikewsmith
    Member

    I was wondering which was it was phrased, is the problem that people can move or that if there is and EU exit it will prevent the English moving. The right wing media will portray immigration as a problem in any country.

    wrecker
    Member

    I have no problem with people moving around to find work at all. Many brits did it in the 90s, heading off to Germany.
    I’m not happy with any receiving benefits though.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    I think overall population growth is the problem.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    wrecker – Member
    I have no problem with people moving around to find work at all. Many brits did it in the 90s, heading off to Germany.
    I’m not happy with any receiving benefits though.

    why not? I’d have a guess that the tax taken from European workers far outstrips the benefits given.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    The Southampton (labour) MP who had a pop at Dwayne Dibley last week about the reality of immigration to what is supposedly their core working class vote, quoted the effect on wages.

    According to her, the day rates for tradesmen i.e.: brickies on building sites had gone from £130, down to £60 with a recent influx of Eastern European driving down wages.

    If that was me, I’d be pretty upset. I’m sure you would be too. Whether whatever knee-jerk nonsense Dave proposes to do about it, to out-UKIP UKIP, will rectify the problem… who knows

    I suspect not. As pointed out already, it isn’t the fault of the EU, its all about Neo-liberal global capitalism. There is a certain irony to its evangelical free-market champions in the Tory Party, and UKIP, the right wing press etc, now rounding on this one particular element of the system they so love, as the cause of all our present woes 🙄

    ninfan
    Member

    I think stories like this:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29251735

    certainly bring to light valid concerns over freedom of movement within Europe, that are not connected with issues as simple as numbers of people – though obviously it leaves open whether the answer involves stricter rules or greater integration.

    Certainly it seems to me that we should be aware of and have a right to reject entry to someone with a significant criminal history.

    The driving down of wages is I think a valid concern, perhaps more so because there appears to be tolerance of some countries acting illicitly to prevent this (threads passim about MTB guiding in France for example)

    wrecker
    Member

    why not? I’d have a guess that the tax taken from European workers far outstrips the benefits given.

    Happy for those who need work to come over and work. They can do what they want with the money they earn (obviously). However the moment they stop earning, the arrangement should be for them to return home and be supported by their parent country. Yes they have paid tax, but have also benefitted handsomely (as will their parent country as many send money home).

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Subscriber

    Ebola will sort it out.

    badnewz
    Member

    If you can’t see how uncontrolled mass immigration into the second most densely populated country in western europe is a problem, then there truly is no hope for you.

    allthegear
    Member

    I believe that there is an arrangement where the money for income support is reimbursed by the origin country through a single annual payment between countries. So, it really matters not whether they are working, surely?

    Rachel (a Yorkshire immigrant in Norfolk)

    freeagent
    Member

    Happy for those who need work to come over and work. They can do what they want with the money they earn (obviously). However the moment they stop earning, the arrangement should be for them to return home and be supported by their parent country. Yes they have paid tax, but have also benefitted handsomely (as will their parent country as many send money home).

    This.
    Fine if they are over here working, and making a positive contribution.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    Can I just check, is it OK for people who have paid less taxes here than some of these immigrants to claim benefits, just because they happen to have been born here? Or would you like to deport them as well?

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    horrible but thankfully rare stories like ninfans ^^^ are tabloid gold for the kippers and xenophobes and in this case the police had previously arrested this guy for suspiscion of assaulting a different girl but hadnt found his past conviction for murder,so its ahrd to know if he couldve been stopped anyway.

    as to the larger question of numbers and movement, it seems like sheer folly to damage the labour market and reduce our competitiveness at times of national and global financial instability

    and as immigrants pay more in tax and claim less benefits per head than native brits it really just highlights how much better for the economy they are

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/european-institute/highlights/2013-14/immigration

    mikewsmith
    Member

    badnewz – Member
    If you can’t see how uncontrolled mass immigration into the second most densely populated country in western europe is a problem, then there truly is no hope for you.

    A reduction of emigration is partly to blame for the rise in numbers…

    Junkyard
    Member

    aracer wrote:

    Can I just check, is it OK for people who have paid less taxes here than some of these immigrants to claim benefits, just because they happen to have been born here? Or would you like to deport them as well?

    What colour is their skin?

    wrecker
    Member

    Can I just check, is it OK for people who have paid less taxes here than some of these immigrants to claim benefits, just because they happen to have been born here? Or would you like to deport them as well?

    Each national govt has a responsibility to its own citizens. Happening to be born here means you are a British person and with that comes some entitlements. The same entitlements can be offered by other governments to their citizens.

    What colour is their skin?

    That’s a very low blow, and uncalled for.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Junkyard – lazarus

    What colour is their skin money?

    🙂

    mikewsmith
    Member

    on that note we better stop winter fuel and pension payments to all those british pensioners living in spain…

    ninfan
    Member

    in this case the police had previously arrested this guy for suspiscion of assaulting a different girl but hadnt found his past conviction for murder,

    Would that not be a valid reason to say we might have put the cart before the horse?

    It seems ridiculous that we didn’t know, and seemingly have no way of knowing, about peoples criminal history before opening our borders to them.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    Can I just check, is it OK for people who have paid less taxes here than some of these immigrants to claim benefits, just because they happen to have been born here? Or would you like to deport them as well?

    No, because they can’t be deported so we’re stuck with them.

    And then you get into arguments about whether the system created the problem, etc.

    Personaly I’d like to see a link between NI contributions and unemployment benefits. E.g. only claiming 1 year in 8, after a minimum contributing period of 3 years or something.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    It seems ridiculous that we didn’t know, and seemingly have no way of knowing, about peoples criminal history before opening our borders to them

    so you want the EU wide police force, with a database containing records of all citizens that have criminal records , Europol is quite large but doesnt have that kind of reach as far as im aware

    its quite a federalist idea though ninfan!

    mudshark
    Member

    I believe that there is an arrangement where the money for income support is reimbursed by the origin country through a single annual payment between countries.

    Source please.

    London’s overpopulated and getting worse, more pressure to build in surrounding towns and greenbelt. This is the result of many factors, no idea about numbers of people coming and getting benefits though.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    freeagent – Member
    Happy for those who need work to come over and work. They can do what they want with the money they earn (obviously). However the moment they stop earning, the arrangement should be for them to return home and be supported by their parent country. Yes they have paid tax, but have also benefitted handsomely (as will their parent country as many send money home).
    This.
    Fine if they are over here working, and making a positive contribution.

    There seems to be no challenge to my point that they contribute more than they take. So where is the problem coming from? It’s not financial.

    ninfan
    Member

    Kimbers, you did see that I commented above:

    “obviously it leaves open whether the answer involves stricter rules or greater integration.”

    mikewsmith
    Member

    So where is the problem coming from? It’s not financial.

    Fear, scaremongering, politics, electioneering, racism.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    I know,ninfan,
    I cant see how it would be achieved without creating a very large and wide ranging secure! database, bringing all member states in to line with the same policing, judiciary and record keeping standards at huge expense and I imagine what the telegrapgh/mail etc would have a shitfit over ‘surrendering’ more powers to the EU

    im just surprised at your position

    wrecker
    Member

    There seems to be no challenge to my point that they contribute more than they take. So where is the problem coming from? It’s not financial.

    Foreign citizens are benefitting from working here, why should they be permitted to take anything out of the system regardless of how much they put in?

    No, because they can’t be deported so we’re stuck with them.

    Not really my point, aside from foreign criminals or terrorists I wouldn’t “deport” anyone. Foreign citizens would just not be entitled to receive any benefits.

    Junkyard
    Member

    That’s a very low blow, and uncalled for.

    I apologise I meant it as a light hearted comment in relation to aracer post.
    I did not mean to suggest that you were in anyway shape or form a racist for the views you have expressed on this thread or anything else you have said on STW
    My sincerest apologies it was uncalled for.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Foreign citizens are benefitting from working here, why should they be permitted to take anything out of the system regardless of how much they put in?

    because being foreign doesnt make them worth any less than being british

    One of the biggest issues I see (haven been involved in education) is children from the EU starting school who can’t speak English. This isn’t there fault and nor is it the teachers or schools fault that they don’t have enough resources but it is (as you can imagine) a massive problem and has a detrimental effect on the other children. Of course there are children from the EU who start in schools who can speak English and are very clever.

    I think being able to move across the EU is fantastic, if I had the change I would be straight off to live in southern France or northern Italy for some super mountain trails 🙂

    wrecker
    Member

    because being foreign doesnt make them worth any less than being british

    I never suggested in any way that they had less worth as people.

    mudshark
    Member

    This isn’t there fault

    You’re right, it’s not their fault.

    Premier Icon seosamh77
    Subscriber

    mikewsmith – Member
    electioneering.

    I think you have a valid point there, playing on prejudices. Piss poor politics.

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