The Electric Car Thread

I’m in the process of buying a new-build house that comes with a 10kw (peak) array. It’s not been finished yet so I can’t tell you the real-world output but hoping it will be enough to run the house including air source heat pump and some underfloor heating plus enough to charge the house battery (10kwh). Haven’t got an EV yet, but it will definitely be on the agenda once we get settled.

One issue with the bigger capacity seems to be that it’s not straightforward to arrange supply to the grid for any excess we might have, hence the house battery.

if that’s what you’re banking on, I have some bad news I’m afraid

When I said ‘the ocean absorbs CO2’ you read ‘everything will be fine because the ocean absorbs all the CO2’…

I was simply countering that anything over zero CO2 is a problem. It’s anything over NET zero that is the problem. We’re producing it faster than it can be sequestered. What we need to do is produce it slower than the rate at which it can be sequestered.

I get two or three environmental news stories in my feed every day at least, so yes I knew about the reduction in CO2 sink capabilities of warmer oceans.

Interesting thread.
I’be got an existing ICE car that does around 40-45mpg with 70k miles on the clock which I am thinking of trading in for something larger as kids are growing bigger. What would be the best action to take from an environmental POV –
1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

Second hand EV’s tend to be a bit thin on the ground currently, especially in a bigger car format.

I’m in the process of buying a new-build house that comes with a 10kw (peak) array.

That’s a hell of an array (30 panels). I’m currently looking into installing a 5 kW array. I think you need DNO permission to feed anything over 3.8kW back into the grid unless you have a three phase supply. In summer its only going to take an hour to fully charge you battery so what are you going to do with the rest?

Again, you assumed it was 20% renewables, when its actually 40+%, didn’t know about thermal efficiency differences, etc.

did I? 🤔 I think you’ve become confused… I was saying I would be more than happy to charge up an EV from home solar. You told me it’s not feasible, which is of course nonsense, because like most people I’m not going to be driving 200+ miles every day.

I was simply countering that anything over zero CO2 is a problem. It’s anything over NET zero that is the problem.

yes. “Net CO2” is obviously what I meant. (In order for the human race to actually produce zero CO2 we’d have to blink out of existence, in an instant, probably not a bad thing for the planet though!) And as it stands, buying an EV and driving the same as we always do, will not achieve it.

Hi everyone, please can you give me the benefit of STW’s advice on what EV to get to replace Mrs J-R’s Fiesta.

She is looking for something for local journeys only, so I guess a real world winter range of about 100 miles is fine. And we want to spend in the region of £7k-£10k.

I was thinking of something like a Zoe – I realise there is the issue of battery lease to consider.

Is that a good option and what are the similar alternatives?

1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

its a quandry I am pondering myself, only with slightly different reasons and figures.

and its not an easy descision, because you need to consider not only *your* impact, but everyones. If you chop in your car, presumably someone else will buy it and use it (at 70k, its not even half done yet).

Someone should be running current cars to their practical deaths, doesn’t mean it has to be you. Likewise, affordable second hand EVs are only going to become a thing if someone buys (or leases) them new.

what are you going to do with the rest?

Well, the developer is in talks with the power company. I don’t know how likely it is they’ll get it sorted between them. They reckon there is no technical reason not to allow feed-in, it’s just a question of approval but I don’t know the details.

The Octopus tariffs allow you to feed back stored power from car batteries at peak times too if you’ve got spare. Good way to outsource power storage, although I guess you’d have to consider the effect on battery life over time.

We will need power for all heating, cooking and hot water plus two of us WFH, plus car eventually.

How many miles per year do you do?

1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

Sort of a similar quandary to us.

We have a late 2019 car which is worth more than the PCP due to stupid 2nd hand prices. Its a 2.0 TSI medium SUV and does between 35 to 40mpg.

I have no real reason to change other than I can move to Electric now rather than in a few years time, later on in its PCP cycle as its financially viable. I’d happily stick with the car we have and change in 2yrs time.

But is it better to move to leccy now 🤔

If you chop in your car, presumably someone else will buy it and use it

True but if you buy a used EV that means someone else who wants one will have to buy new which contribute to the development of the tech and the electrification of the fleet.

BUT if you sell your car it will mean that at the bottom of the chain someone’s car is going to be scrapped when it could be repaired.

Just a question regarding the 40% renewables, are you factoring nuclear into the mix and the fact that from November we’ll be losing ~2GW over roughly a year IIRC then another 2GW in 2 years and another 2.5GW probably 2 years after that?

43% renewables, 59% rewables + nuclear

Hinkly Point brings the nuclear proportion back up again in 2026, maybe.

In summer its only going to take an hour to fully charge you battery so what are you going to do with the rest?

At 10Kwh it’s going to take a lot longer than an hour.

Hi everyone, please can you give me the benefit of STW’s advice on what EV to get to replace Mrs J-R’s Fiesta.

She is looking for something for local journeys only, so I guess a real world winter range of about 100 miles is fine. And we want to spend in the region of £7k-£10k.

I was thinking of something like a Zoe – I realise there is the issue of battery lease to consider.

Is that a good option and what are the similar alternatives?

Morning bump

Hinkly Point brings the nuclear proportion back up again in 2026, maybe.

Not even close, Hinkley Point C is due to generate 3.2GW, by 2026 we’ll have lost at least 4GW from planned closures at Hunterston B, Hinkley Point B, Hartlepool and Heysham 1 (I’m not even counting Dungeness B since it never generated since 2018 anyway but that’s another lost GW). Another 2.4GW will be lost with the closure of Torness and Heysham 2 after that.

Sizewell C is still at Coming Soon [TM] status and nothing else has even gone through consultation never mind having anyone to build them.

At 10Kwh it’s going to take a lot longer than an hour.

@Drac I meant his house battery which is 10kWh not his car battery

1.Stick with the current car for as long as possible
2.Change it for another used ICE car with a more modern engine with better mpg values (50-55mpg?)
3.Change it for a new EV car

I recently listened to a podcast quoting a European report which concluded that even on the US grid an EV overcomes it’s larger embodied footprint to net produce less CO2 than a conventional car very, very quickly. Something like 3 years IIRC. So answer is probably that if you can find an EV then that is the better choice. I’ll try dig out the report later.

Does anyone think that the Government may announce something further on electric cars in the run up to COP 26 in terms of extended grants etc?

They are going to need some sort of policy announcements over the summer as COP26 will keep environment in the headlines. Encouraging electric car use with positive incentives is likely to be easier sell than eg re-introducing the fuel tax escalator

Double post

Does anyone think that the Government may announce something further on electric cars in the run up to COP 26 in terms of extended grants etc?

I’m generally against subsidies like this because it just encourages manufacturers to increase their prices by the amount of the subsidy and trouser the extra profit. It was amazing how some manufacturers could instantly decrease the price of their EVs when the government recently reduced the price cap on the EV allowance.

Dropping the VAT on public charging from 20% to the 5% charged on domestic electricity would be a better idea.

We’ll see if those nuclear plant closures happen on time.

I meant his house battery which is 10kWh not his car battery

Ohhhh!

We’ll see if those nuclear plant closures happen on time.

They will, they’re already ahead of schedule for political/technical reasons. Based on what I’ve heard about the second tranche AGRs I’ve no reason to doubt they’ll be following the first lot.

I’m generally against subsidies like this because it just encourages manufacturers to increase their prices by the amount of the subsidy and trouser the extra profit.

In general yes but there might be a role for subsidy in cases like these. Of course there’s Catch 22 situation here – economies of scale are required to make EVs cheaper, but that won’t happen until lots of people buy them, and one of the biggest blockers is cost, so people are waiting for prices to come down which requires economies of scale…

Not many OEMs are making money on EVs yet. It’s definitely not a case of just trousering more profit, unless you consider it that the grant is helping them to pull their fleet average down and therefore keep selling at the more polluting end of their range.

Anecdotally I’ve not heard anyone complain about the concept of EVs, only express concerns about charging infrastructure.

All my neighbours were very interested in the Ioniq when it turned up, but all were positive. Most people seem to accept that they “are the future” so I think the PR battle has mostly been won.

This means that the manufacturers will capitalise on this and the government action will be seen as positive. If you want to see EVs adopted then I think you have a lot to be pleased about.

@J-R

And we want to spend in the region of £7k-£10k.

I was thinking of something like a Zoe – I realise there is the issue of battery lease to consider.

Is that a good option and what are the similar alternatives?

There are three different ages of Zoe now; the oldest 22kwh ones with a range of about 80-100 miles, the slightly newer ZE40 40kwh ones with a range of 150-180 miles, and the newest ZE50 50something kwh with a range of 240 ish miles. Your budget would easily get you one of the old ones, should get you a ZE40 but the only used ZE50s will be too new for your budget.

We loved our ZE40; it was a nice little car. The boot is bigger than normal for the size of car. It was pretty basic for gadgets and whatnot but did us fine.

The main complication is that only the ZE50 can charge from DC chargers; the older ones are AC only. There are quite a few chargers being installed these days that only do DC, so doing longer journeys might be more faff than in a DC charging car like a Leaf or most other things.

You can buy out the battery lease these days; I get the impression that dealers sometimes do this as it makes it easier to sell on a used car without the complication of the lease.

There’s a Type 2 socket on every Zoé made. It’s by far the most common standard. The EU will only have two obligatory standards for charge points from 2024, Type 2 and Combo.

Could you point me at a recent charge point anywhere in any country that doesn’t do Type 2 Phil. The Uk isn’t in the EU anymore but not having Type 2 is turning away most of your potential business.

I’ve a Zoe with Type 2 and Combo and have never seen a recent charger without Type 2.

Type 2 doesn’t define a charger as AC or DC though

Could you point me at a recent charge point anywhere in any country that doesn’t do Type 2

Well all the ABB rapid chargers Gridserve are installing in the UK Electric Highway network to replace the old Ecotricity units are CCS and Chademo only. The Zoe drivers are going mental. Gridserve have explained they will be installing separate Type 2 AC only chargers shortly (good idea as it keeps old Zoes off rapid chargers) but still they complain.

Could you point me at a recent charge point anywhere in any country that doesn’t do Type 2 Phil. The Uk isn’t in the EU anymore but not having Type 2 is turning away most of your potential business.

Instavolt are DC only, and are in second place (behind BP Pulse) for number of open-to-all rapid charging points in the UK now, at nearly 600. https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ They guessed (correctly) that DC would dominate, it makes their chargepoints neater and easier to use, one less connector to maintain, and keeps most PHEVs away.

Even with BP Pulse a lot of their new installs with 100+kW DC units don’t have AC on them, only the older 50kW triple-head ones.

And Ionity of course are CCS only. They may be required to install units with other connectors at sites in France and elsewhere but not here.

I think it’s fair to say 43kW AC is doomed now. Only about a third of UK Zoes can charge at that, it was just the early ones and those who paid several hundred points for the option later on. As the old rapids get unreliable and get replaced there’ll be fewer and fewer 43kW AC ones.
Quite a few new rapids (Osprey, Geniepoint, etc) have a 22kW AC socket which isn’t a bad idea, and you can often use that even when the DC is in use. And there seems to be more and more 22kW destination charging which is really useful for Zoes.

As for the ZE40 Zoe, I don’t think it’s a bad car within it’s capability – you just need to allow for long trips needing an hour-long charge to get another 90-odd miles in. Even the battery lease isn’t too bad – don’t think of it as a replacement for fuel cost, more like a shared ownership house. You own most, you rent a bit which you can buy out later. It makes the base car cheaper and you get an ongoing battery warranty and breakdown cover for your money. The buy-out price goes down over time too.

Chademo

I thought Chademo was all but dead and gone with most manufacturers adopting CCS?

I thought Chademo was all but dead and gone with most manufacturers adopting CCS?

There are a lot of Nissan Leafs out there using Chademo. Gridserve’s usage stats have shown that they need a ratio of 1 Chademo for every 3 CCS connectors to keep Leaf drivers happy.

A remarkable difference between, countries then, thanks for that Plil and Simon. Chademos are rare here, Auchan did a deal with Nissan but all the other supermarkets are type 2 AC. Travelling around Spain, Germany, and France Type 2 22kW AC are by far the most common. Poland is a bit thin on chargers but the ones we used were Type 2 and Combo.

I prefered the drive of the Zoé 40. Mechanical handbrake, no touch screen which I find a distraction, I’m happier with a normal radio with aux/usb and the phone out of sight where I have to stop to use it. I prefered the gear change which would accept being put in drive whilst still going backwards and visa versa. I find three point turns on a hill with parked cars irritating in the Zoé 50, and uphill starts on snow lack finesse. Having the A/C on the key was great.

But the 50 is quicker (of no use), goes another 80km (very useful) and charges in half the time if there’s a Combo – getting increasingly useful, though on a 440km journey yesterday it was easier to have lunch on a Lidl charger (Type 2 only) than go out of our way to a Combo. It used 11.7kWh/100km with the A/C on, the same journey last week without A/C was 0.8 less.

The advantage of 7-22kW AC is the ease of installing a charger almost anywhere. Around here they use street light infrastructure so they’ve popped up in every big village and on enough supermarket car parks to not need to go hunting for a petrol station. 22kW gets a Zoé underway again in the time to each lunch and do a quick shop, but an e-Tron owner would risk getting fat on that basis. 😉

There are three different ages of Zoe now; the oldest 22kwh ones with a range of about 80-100 miles, the slightly newer ZE40 40kwh ones with a range of 150-180 miles, and the newest ZE50 50something kwh with a range of 240 ish miles. Your budget would easily get you one of the old ones, should get you a ZE40 but the only used ZE50s will be too new for your budget.

We loved our ZE40; it was a nice little car. The boot is bigger than normal for the size of car. It was pretty basic for gadgets and whatnot but did us fine.

The main complication is that only the ZE50 can charge from DC chargers; the older ones are AC only. There are quite a few chargers being installed these days that only do DC, so doing longer journeys might be more faff than in a DC charging car like a Leaf or most other things.

You can buy out the battery lease these days; I get the impression that dealers sometimes do this as it makes it easier to sell on a used car without the complication of the lease

Thanks @phiiiiil

Anybody else got a suggestion?

You could do what I did and go on Autotrader, select ‘leasing’ and have a look at prices. We would never consider leasing normally but the prices on Leafs/Ioniqs/Zoes etc are really very cheap considering the new price. Of course there are downsides, in that you don’t get to own the cars – but the used EVs you can buy for cheap are old enough to have their share of downsides too – small battery backs for example, (in the case of Leafs) poor heat management when charging on older models, or the battery lease issue on Zoes etc.

One of the key factors in us getting a 180 mile car on lease instead of a 60-80 mile car used is that we could use it much more instead of the diesel, which itself saves a ton of money. The Ioniq can do all our errands, day trips and visits to my parents, so the diesel (whatever that ends up being!) only needs to come out for work (non-existent currently) or holidays.

Given the issues with older used cars, the cost of servicing the loan we’d have needed, and the comparable cost and better capability of the new lease option, we went with that.

Type 2 doesn’t define a charger as AC or DC though

In terms of European obligations it pretty much defines it as AC two or three phase. AFAIK only Tesla use the DC option and that’s a modified Type 2. On chargemap you can’t even select Type 2 DC.

From 2024 the European ‘must provide’ on a public charger standard is Type 2 AC and Combo (CSS). Looking at the map if there’s a new DC only charger (see Phil and Simon’s contributions) there’s invariably a Type 2 AC next to it which is why my app always shows both of them at charge points. The Type 2 has to be there but not in the same box.

Does anyone know what functionality the recent Hyundai Ioniq infotainment has with route planning to show up to date charging points of different specs? A La Tesla? Availability? Not clear from what I’ve been able to find on the web.

Or is it a case of using apple car play and zappmap?

Fahsand!