The Electric Car Thread

Long journeys have never been more pleasant for us, we are enjoying the stops, for us, driving an EV has been refreshingly pleasant. Our five year old Tesla has also been faultless this year, we’ve journeyed across Europe, all over England and Wales with never a stressful moment. Not a thing has needed to be done to the car either, very cheap motoring.

I also dislike Musk but am at peace with Tesla as a company. 🙂

It has broken us as car buyers though, I can’t seeing us wanting to replace it for a very very long time.

Sounds great. Which model Tesla and what kind of range / distance or time between stops on longer trips?

Happily EVs have none of those things ?

And to be honest, that’s the main motivation for me to buy an EV. It’s not so much about the tailpipe emissions. I do agree that they are probably beneficial in that regard too, but it’s a complex argument once you factor in the extra carbon produced in production and try to decide whether the energy the EV uses can be considered to come from the general mix of electricity produced for the grid or has to be counted as an extra demand that is mostly met from gas powered power stations. But if they can last significantly longer than ICE cars then that is a clear environmental (and cost) benefit.

Unfortunately, while I don’t doubt that a modern EV could last over 20 years and over 400,000 miles  (i.e. twice the current average for a petrol car in the UK) I’m also sure that manufacturers will do everything in their power to stop that happening.

Thanks @steamtb I’ll keep working on the rest of the family 🙂

I did find an interesting article from Treehugger about whether it is OK to buy a Tesla if you don’t like Musk

https://www.treehugger.com/is-it-ethical-to-buy-tesla-despite-elon-musk-5213960

Unfortunately it concludes that it is OK to buy a Tesla but also OK not to buy a Tesla so may not help my argument 🙂

It’s not even that small, which is another thing I find annoying with the current crop pf EVs.

This gets my goat too, the “small” EV3 is 30mm wider than the current Niro (which itself was 15mm wider than the old), or as wide as a Model 3 or Ariya. The carparks we often use try to squeeze three spaces between pillars and I don’t fancy going any wider than the Leaf.

Megane E-Tech is looking good for something roomy enough for 4, 400+ litre boot and 10mm narrower than a Leaf.

(yes, I spend too long looking at car dimensions)

I’ve had 4 experiences of tesla service and it’s all been positive and surprisingly not expensive when I’ve had to pay. Must admit initially I wasn’t keen on the faceless “do it all thru the app” idea, but after a few uses I was fine with it, probably my age. .

1. Accident repair, someone reversed into passenger door. parts took about 6 weeks, but it was Oct 2020 right in the middle of lock downs. insurance Bill was £1700 (new front door and wing mirror) which I assumed would be similar for Audi, BMW etc

2. DC charging fault came up on the screen, was told I needed a part replacing but it couldn’t be done outside my house, booked it in service centre at my convenience, it took a couple of hours whilst I went to the local climbing wall. warranty job.

3. Needed 2 new key cards (long story and nothing to do with Tesla). mobile service came out within 2 days, programmed them whilst sat outside my house. £39.99 for 2 new key cards and a home visit. Mobile service guy tried to get it done under warranty for me which didn’t happen, but I didn’t appear to get charged for his time/callout/labour. I’d given him a sob story

4. Needed new front passenger door glass (related to above). Tesla mobile service came to my work and fitted new door glass for £271. I had to wait 2 weeks from ordering to fitting. National windscreens quoted £900 online, Autoglass quoted £600 over the phone.

And to be honest, that’s the main motivation for me to buy an EV.

Me too …. well the performance but low ‘fuel’ cost helps too!

We keep cars for a long time – this morning I’ve said bye to our diesel golf that we’ve had for about 10 years and 90k miles.  It’ been good but we don’t need it now since MrsSB bought something else.

Over that time it’s had a clutch, timing belt and water pump (it’s had tyres, brakes and 2 x new shocks as well but they don’t count as EVs have them also) which is probably not too bad. But ICE have so many parts that can go wrong it quite frightening and frankly a marvel that modern cars do actually work so reliably – and that’s what worries me.

I have a Cayenne that I’ve had for 10 years also and it’s great…. but I’m waiting for something big to go wrong which I guess it inevitably will.  EV’s have far fewer parts to go wrong and the biggest issue going forwards is probably software related – but I’m still worried about their longevity.  If I bought one it would be [to me] very expensive and I’m still trying to convince myself that in 10 years time I’d still be getting the same use from it as I probably would with a ICE car.

This gets my goat too, the “small” EV3 is 30mm wider than the current Niro (which itself was 15mm wider than the old), or as wide as a Model 3 or Ariya. The carparks we often use try to squeeze three spaces between pillars and I don’t fancy going any wider than the Leaf.

Megane E-Tech is looking good for something roomy enough for 4, 400+ litre boot and 10mm narrower than a Leaf.

Yes, why did they have to make the new Kona bigger than the old one? It’s not like the world is short of mid-sized SUVs. The old Kona had a nice niche as a smaller SUV, but not any more.

The Megane has also been on my shortlist. It’s USP seems to be that it can display google maps in the main driver display (leaving the other one free for music etc) which is a neat trick. Unfortunately a fair few owners seem to have experienced the alarm going off in the middle of the night for no reason, which would drive me nuts. Also seem to be quite a few complaints about poor range although I’m not sure if that’s just people who thought the WLTP range actually meant something 🙂 Putting it up against the Ex30 (as another small hatchback option) on ev-database the Megane seems to have higher range in all conditions despite a slightly smaller battery.

 I’m still worried about their longevity.  If I bought one it would be [to me] very expensive and I’m still trying to convince myself that in 10 years time I’d still be getting the same use from it as I probably would with a ICE car.

That pretty much sums up the issue for me. I know where I stand with a petrol car. There is lots of data on which makes/engines are reliable, what issues to expect etc. But an EV is still a bit of an unknown quantity. Maybe Tesla get another tick there as there are a fair few high mileage examples on the road now.

I’m fairly confident that an EV purchased today would still be running in 6 years time, but would you actually still want to drive it given what else would be available? You could buy a 6 year old Leaf now, but would you want to?

I’m fairly confident that an EV purchased today would still be running in 6 years time, but would you actually still want to drive it given what else would be available?

I’d rather be driving a good EV bought now for 6 years than any ICE car available now and it’ll still be a good EV six years from now despite any advances in EV tech and it’ll still be better than any ICE cars that may still be being made. You could make the same argument for any piece of consumer tech like cameras, phones, TVs etc. Just buy one and enjoy it …or don’t.

A six year old Tesla Model 3, is, a few tweaks away from the current Model 3 that still wins best in class tests. My 2020 Model 3 went back to the lease company yesterday and you absolutely wouldn’t say anything about it was old tech.

In a few weeks six years ago is 2019!

It’s USP seems to be that it can display google maps in the main driver display (leaving the other one free for music etc) which is a neat trick.

The Polestar does this too… Really useful feature when my daughter wants to choose her teeny bopper songs!

I think it’s an android automotive feature..

DrP

I will miss the Google-maps-behind-the-steering-wheel from Polestar ownership. It was a really neat feature.

Picked up #1 Brabus yesterday. I did not take kiddo and his mate out to the nearest bit of quiet dual carriageway, switch driving mode to Brabus and floor it for a few seconds. That would just be juvenile.

The heads up display is quite groovy too.

 It’s not so much about the tailpipe emissions. I do agree that they are probably beneficial in that regard too, but it’s a complex argument

I don’t think it is. Every study says that the overall carbon footprint of an EV is lower, they simply vary on the mileage the car has to do before the crossover point.  Some say it’s 30k miles, some say it’s 80k miles.  But you must remember that the energy  mix is getting cleaner all the time. The CO2 per kWh of the UK grid today is a fifth of what it was as recently as 2012. You could have bought a Leaf in 2012, and it would be emitting a fifth of the CO2 per mile than when you bought it, and you would not have had to do anything.  The UK electricity grid is decarbonising rapidly, there are storage projects and generation capacity going up all the time.  The car that is made now is going to be cleaner again in ten years’ time.  Another remarkable statistic I read recently said that 40% of global shipping itself responsible for simply moving fossil fuels around to be burned in other places.

Then you can also factor in local air quality.  That 60l of toxic hydrocarbons you put in your ICE does not disappear – it gets converted into less toxic fumes and sprayed around wherever you go. And there are millions of vehicles doing this all the time.  It’s quite horrible when you think about it.

Unfortunately, while I don’t doubt that a modern EV could last over 20 years and over 400,000 miles  (i.e. twice the current average for a petrol car in the UK) I’m also sure that manufacturers will do everything in their power to stop that happening.

This is a myth. Manufacturers don’t design obsolescence in.  Think about what you mean by how long a car ‘lasts’.   People get rid of cars because the cost of repair is more than the market value of the car, but what dictates the market value?  Simply the desirability and availability of new better cars.  Cars would last far longer than they do now if used car prices were higher, because more people would repair them. Manufacturers can make their cars reliable so they look good to consumers whilst ensuring people will continue to buy new models by innovating and making new cars better still.

I’m fairly confident that an EV purchased today would still be running in 6 years time, but would you actually still want to drive it given what else would be available?

If you decide not to worry about it then yes, of course.  Mine’s 4.5 years old, and whilst I would love a fancy new one, that’s always the case and I have made a decision to keep this one until either a) it dies b) we no longer need it or c) we become really rich.

@mick_r it’s a 2019 model 3 Performance. Late drive last week at night, quite chilly, three passengers and loads of stuff in the car, 240 miles at a smidge above 70 for a full charge. I assume we have about 10% battery degradation given the age but I’ve never measured it. We obviously have the old, much less efficient heater too. Our biggest challenge when we charge is getting back to the car before we get charged idling fees, although we are quite chilled and don’t rush! Dropping 10mph off that leads to a notable range increase.

Sudden thought on longetivity reading on the toilet… I am now the owner of an EV6 – I got a 2nd hand one with 11,000 kms on the clock so I’ve got nearly 140,000 kms or 5 years + of warranty to go.  Warranties can break car companies (ask JLR re. the ipace) so Kia must be pretty darn confident.

FWIW it’s really nice, easy to drive, and judging by the one longish drive so far will easy do 450kms on twisty mountainous A roads though the speed limit is never above 90kms. Charging is quick, and nice controls with stalks and buttons

(Megane)

Also seem to be quite a few complaints about poor range although I’m not sure if that’s just people who thought the WLTP range actually meant something

I don’t think the earlier UK ones had a heat pump, it came a bit later on but only with the top spec.

It’s recently been revised and they all get it as standard now, as well as the nice 12″ screen on all but the base model. List price is cheaper too, although Renault seem keen to do deals anyway.

Loose wires in the boot, new EV to me, any ideas ?

Thanks @molgrips I don’t disagree with you on the environmental argument but I know that there is a counter argument along the lines that we currently use all of the “green” energy that we produce. So, if I add extra demand to the grid by buying an EV that extra demand is met entirely through gas as we can’t increase the amount of power produced from renewables. I suspect that argument is crap (turbines may well be switched off some nights due to lack of demand, for example) but I know it is out there.

Not sure about the manufacturers. Maybe obsolescence isn’t explicitly designed in but but they don’t seem to make any attempt to design them so that they are easy to repair, may not provide parts after what they consider to be the life of the car and with extra complexity they can also stop providing software support. I agree that the main driver for replacing a car is probably just going to be that something better is available rather than it actually not meeting my needs anymore though.

Thanks @simon_g I’ve had an alert set up on autotrader for a 24 Megane for a while now. Almost pulled the trigger on one a few weeks back but there are still a few things that make me think it might not be right for me. They are all just personal preferences though.

I realised something fairly obvious yesterday. If I don’t like the fact that new cars are getting bigger, I don’t like all the intrusive “aids” and I’m not sure if I’d want to keep any current EV for 6-7 years then rather than looking at a one year old car in the £25-£30k range maybe I should be looking at a three year old one in the £15-£20k range instead. Something  from Hyundai/Kia would presumably still have a fair bit of warranty left anyway. Yes I’d probably want to change in earlier but I’d have an extra £10k (plus interest) in the bank when the time came.

I would have to give up some of the nice features on newer models but maybe that would be offset by less annoying features too. How far back do you have to go before you don’t have to switch off speed, driver attention and lane departure warnings every time you get into the car? I know my 2017 car doesn’t have these. My wife’s 2018 does have lane departure warning, but we switched it off after about a day and it’s stayed off for the past six years.

 I know that there is a counter argument along the lines that we currently use all of the “green” energy that we produce. So, if I add extra demand to the grid by buying an EV that extra demand is met entirely through gas as we can’t increase the amount of power produced from renewables.

If we did use it all we wouldn’t have to pay wind farms to curtail their output. Maximisation of the use of renewables and low carbon electricity can be achieved by incentivising people to time shift their EV charging (and other use) to times of low demand or when there is an excess of renewables by use of time based tariffs like Octopus Go or Agile. Recently Octopus have been giving customers free electricity for 1 hour periods during the afternoon on sunny and windy days. Sadly that’s probbaly not going to happen again until the spring.

I know that there is a counter argument along the lines that we currently use all of the “green” energy that we produce.

No we don’t – which is why octopus pay me to use electricity overnight when it’s windy!

[Agile]

And there’s more to come.

may not provide parts after what they consider to be the life of the car

Did you know that there are [AFAIA] rules that state that manufacturers have to supply parts for 10 years after a model has stopped production?

But not on what they can charge for them as far as I know. I mentioned above that Suzuki want £700 for a radiator for my 7 year old car (and nobody else supplies them apparently).  So maybe parts are technically available but there isn’t any incentive for a manufacturer to make it economically viable for you to repair their old car. I mean they are businesses after all.

That radiator price is more an issue of Suzuki being a very low volume vehicle in the UK and maybe Europe. If it were higher volume there would be OEM parts at reasonable prices and a choice of cheaper aftermarket suppliers. e.g. a very quick search on my wife’s 14 year old C3 Picasso is £224 for an OEM Valeo radiator and pattern parts down to £90 – an advantage of the 1.6 HDI being used in absolutely loads of vehicles (Ford and BMW as well as many Stellantis products).

Thanks for the range information @steamtb – I’d agree that we could happily live with an EV on those figures.

Had a very quick look at the Kia EV3 yesterday. Nice but not tall enough in the rear for droppered bikes upright without a front wheel. Also a shame about the limited heat pump options as the base “Air” model is otherwise very well equipped. Totally ignored in the showroom despite making a beeline for one specific vehicle and having a detailed look / measure up….

Another thought is at what point do insurance companies start penalising people who crash vehicles with driver assistance turned off?

 if I add extra demand to the grid by buying an EV that extra demand is met entirely through gas

Even if that wasn’t in dispute, remember that the direct alternative (i.e. using an ICE car) is meeting that demand through petrol or diesel…

I realised something fairly obvious yesterday. If I don’t like the fact that new cars are getting bigger, I don’t like all the intrusive “aids” and I’m not sure if I’d want to keep any current EV for 6-7 years then rather than looking at a one year old car in the £25-£30k range maybe I should be looking at a three year old one in the £15-£20k range instead. Something  from Hyundai/Kia would presumably still have a fair bit of warranty left anyway. Yes I’d probably want to change in earlier but I’d have an extra £10k (plus interest) in the bank when the time came.

I’m in a similar sort of boat, but looking a tier down in terms of price. I think we need a smaller EV as a second car within the next couple of years, missus only has an auto license, eldest will be approaching learning to drive age, we make plenty of short local journeys, have a drive way where we could charge and a small, a used EV with minimal range just makes sense.

With that in mind I’m looking at the general availability of used EVs and noticing the pattern where lots of Leafs and Zoës are going pretty cheap now, but we’re talking about those earlier 22-30kwh cars, lots of the Zoës are battery lease too (meaning an extra ongoing cost or another buy-out option to consider). And it’s a gamble, the picture on battery life for all of these seems fuzzy still and we’re talking about 16/17/18 plate cars, they’ll be pushing a decade before you know it. So if I blow £5k on a “runabout” with say battery health that gives 60-80 miles on a full charge today, what will that be in 2 years? If I take on someone else’s battery lease and Renault stop supporting it, making an otherwise mechanically fine car difficult to support where will that leave me, we’re facing the risk of buying into the first round of obsolescence in EVs something that really runs the risk of undermining a major selling point of them.

I would have to give up some of the nice features on newer models but maybe that would be offset by less annoying features too. How far back do you have to go before you don’t have to switch off speed, driver attention and lane departure warnings every time you get into the car? I know my 2017 car doesn’t have these. My wife’s 2018 does have lane departure warning, but we switched it off after about a day and it’s stayed off for the past six years.

I’ve Just got a 74 Skoda, AIUI legally the car now has to be configured so that speed warnings are enabled as a minimum, every time the car starts the driver can then disable them, but that’s an active choice (I wonder how insurance companies will view this?). Personally I like having the warnings and the dash showing the prevailing limit as well as using the speed limiter in 20-40 limit areas, lane assist is two (steering wheel) button presses to disable and while mostly fine does seems intent on killing me on B-Roads where makings and crap make it’s life harder.

Other than that it’s all passive stuff and has been on cars for a while now. Active cruise control I can take or leave TBH, I have found setting the limiter to 70 interesting for short DC/motorway hops. Collision detection (it’s just the forward facing sensors for parking and ACC looking out for other cars in your path below about 30) hasn’t been too bad but seems to shit itself if a bit of condensation gets on the bumpers of a morning, seems to take about a mile to clear again, it has kicked in once for a Beemer who spotted his turn a bit late and I can’t honestly say if it was me or the car that braked first. I’ve not had a ‘driver awareness warning yet, but apparently it’s monitoring me in case I snooze off, which is nice to know

Overall I think these are mostly positive additions to driving, things for the driver to work with, not against, prompting some better behaviours maybe(?) at the same time I’m more suspicious of FSD, which feels like the logical extension, but that’s got it’s own separate thread.

I don’t think you’ll be able to opt out of the driver aids going forward TBH, not without buying significantly older cars (like 6+ years at this point?) and running them for longer, both for ICE or leccy, so it becomes a tipping point, just how opposed to driver aids are you?

I think having an EV as a second car or runaround makes perfect sense, especially if you can charge at home. Personally I don’t think I’d buy anything with a battery lease these days, but I’d have no concerns about an older Zoe. Our neighbours (retired) have an older and a newer Zoe. The newer one has longer range and CCS charging, but the older one works just as well for local trips.

I think it is when you are looking at an EV as the main (or only) car that has to handle everything from commuting to family holidays that things get a bit more tricky. I still think it should work though.

I’m not actually opposed to driver aids. In principle they are great. It’s just annoying when they don’t work. I like the fact that Google maps now tells me what it thinks is the speed limit when I’m navigating, but am surprised at how often it is wrong. No problem when it is just showing the limit on the screen but would be very annoying if it was beeping at you all the time.

I can’t imagine any of the driver aids you don’t want can’t be switched off with a bit of work on the the OBD port

I read somewhere that cars with modern driver aids are 40% less likely to be involved in an accident.  For that benefit I’ll happily put up with a bit of beeping now and then.  Fortunately, our car has a button to disable lane keep assist which is important on narrow windy roads like a typical B road, because it’s just not able to deal with it.  I re-enable it when I get back to normal roads though.

Re the energy usage – there are battery storage facilities going up all over the place and loads of new windfarms.  Given the wind still blows at night I expect that due to the huge drop in demand could easily be met by wind power much of the time.  Octopus intelligent charging already schedules charging when there is more wind power available – when you plug in, it gives you a schedule based on the weather forecast so it’ll say charging from 0030 to 0130 then 0330-0400 etc.

Re old runabouts – I had a look at these a while ago and they were still expensive enough not to be worth it. I’m a  big EV advocate but I am still nervous about these old cars.   That said there are piles of Leaf batteries on eBay.

I don’t like all the intrusive “aids” 

Yeah, I am struggling a bit with this – we got a Lexus RZ in September and it beeps at you when you exceed whatever speed limit it thinks it is (it isn’t always correct) and I have yet to find out how to stop the beeping (even temporarily). It has lane assist that gets flustered when I am on narrow roads with cars approaching, it beeps if it thinks I am not paying attention (if I am looking left and right at a junction, it thinks I am not looking ahead and paying attention) and a couple of times it has emergency-braked when it thought I was going to crash – at the weekend I pulled out onto a road with queuing traffic at some lights, it slammed on, dropped power and left me stuck in the middle of the road with cars heading toward me. And when I reverse it’s all Bing! Bang! Bong! Beep!

all that aside, was able to put smug face on this morning at 730 am, when with outside temperature at minus 5 and the neighbours out scraping away at their car windscreens, mine was sitting quietly with the ice melting away, 5 mins or so after pressing the climatisation button on the phone app.. 🙂

all that aside, was able to put smug face on this morning at 730 am, when with outside temperature at minus 5 and the neighbours out scraping away at their car windscreens, mine was sitting quietly with the ice melting away, 5 mins or so after pressing the climatisation button on the phone app

Agreed – I have just set a schedule to pre-heat the car every weekday morning so my wife gets a nice warm car and clear glass when she sets off for work.

If you aren’t needing to charge every day, is it possible to plug in and preheat without actually adding charge? Don’t know if that is a thing and how small top-ups relate to overall battery life in terms of charge / discharge cycles. I’ll ask my battery lab colleague when he is next on our site but Mert might be along to advise in the meantime.

If I’m preheating I want it using the battery that was charged at the cheap rate.
Seems a bit pointless to preheat using the house and normal rate.

Early starter so would probably be still in the cheap rate when I’d be preheating, and with that Berlingo I tried last week there would be some days I’d want to save the range for driving.

and I have yet to find out how to stop the beeping (even temporarily)

Every I4 owner knows the joy of a long press of the ‘set’ button on the steering wheel when you set off…

It will come back on when you restart – it’s the law.

Is it only the law on cars sold after a certain date though? I’m still wondering whether this might actually be an advantage to buying a slightly older car.

The inch of snow in the village (and resulting chaos on the roads) this morning has sharpened my focus on winter performance of EVs. I can’t claim that it is a major problem having to pop out to the car and start the engine 5 minutes before I leave so everything can defrost, but it would be nice to do it from the warmth of my kitchen 🙂

I still can’t get my head around the whole FWD vs RWD (vs AWD) issue in an EV though. OK AWD is best (and brings extra giggles) but at the cost of range. I also understand that RWD gives a more engaging drive, better steering feel and should give better traction, especially going up hill as the weight is over the driven wheels. FWD does give slightly better efficiency (slightly more efficient regen) but I can’t help thinking that it is just a hangover from ICE cars though.

I did read something about FWD still being better in the snow on an EV because a) you can move the driven wheels about a bit to find some grip and b) the driven wheels aren’t always having to find traction in the snow that was compacted by the front tyres. Not sure if that is really true though.

Obviously tyres are most important and modern traction control systems are pretty good, but since I can choose a FWD or a RWD EV I’d like to know what would theoretically be better in snow even if it doesn’t actually matter in practice.

If I’m preheating I want it using the battery that was charged at the cheap rate.

One of the annoyances on my car (or the app) is that it won’t allow cabin preconditioning if it has less than 50% charge. I’m a cheapskate so if I’m driving to work I like to set off with minimal charge so that I can maximize the benefit of free charging at work, but that usually means I can’t pre-warm the car.

If you aren’t needing to charge every day, is it possible to plug in and preheat without actually adding charge? Don’t know if that is a thing and how small top-ups relate to overall battery life in terms of charge / discharge cycles

There’s no need to avoid adding charge.  If you want maximum battery lifespan then you limit the charge to 80% until you need it to be 100% on those odd occasions you have a trip planned, and that’s all you need to do.  Adding a small amount of charge doesn’t really constitute a ‘cycle’ otherwise you’d be using up a cycle every time you press the brake pedal.

since I can choose a FWD or a RWD EV I’d like to know what would theoretically be better in snow even if it doesn’t actually matter in practice.

It’s really a non-issue.  The weight of the car is going to be right in the middle for an EV, and the risk of oversteer or the back overtaking the front is not ever going to be an issue with super-responsive traction control. I think the reason most EVs are RWD is simply that they can be, there’s no real reason not to, and it eliminates torque steer.

Adding a small amount of charge doesn’t really constitute a ‘cycle’ otherwise you’d be using up a cycle every time you press the brake pedal.

I’m not sure that’s true. Its not a cycle for the entire battery, but it is a cycle for the bit of the battery you added charge to.

That said, it doesn’t matter whether you charge 75% – 80% or later charge 50%-80% – the 5% of the battery still gets cycled as you still need to replace the charge.

For hybrid batteries, the far higher cycle count compared to an EV (caused by you pressing the brake pedal and having a far smaller battery) does put significantly different workloads on the battery, so hybrid batteries are higher spec and more expensive (per cell) than an EV battery

5 to 10 mins of preheating in my i4, even on a well subzero day like today, has no noticeable effect on the displayed amount of charge % or range in miles.