Politics we could all run the country better than this shower despite no quals…oh hold on that one is true 😕

Or unpalatable observations from people who have been to school,have their children at school, employ school leavers and seen our OECD standings decline so perhaps not quite so ill informed.

I’m not suggesting that all the criticism is unfounded. Just quite a lot of it. I’m basing that on reading this thread which is a mix of informed comment and the usual ‘I blame the teachers’ crap.

A lot of the stories that crop up about poor teaching are smokescreen to deflect attention away from the fact that the government aren’t willing or able to do the things that would really make a difference like smaller class sizes, investment in facilities and implementing alternative curricula for the disengaged.

If you cannot commit fully to teach other don’t teach as simple as that because you are destroying the kids’ future.

There is no half-hearted teaching before Uni because the kids are still not mature enough to stand on their own. The foundation must be laid or they will not have legs to stand on, especially when they cannot enter the profession they want to or go to Uni.

Some people in the teaching profession are tossers really … yes, you maggots, you half-hearted tossers, why not jump from tower bridge you coward, rather than harming the future of the children … 👿

yes, you maggots, you half-hearted tossers, why not jump from tower bridge you coward, rather than harming the future of the children

At last, someone with the guts to say it as he sees it.

Or perhaps unpalatable observations from people who have been to school,have their children at school, employ school leavers and seen our OECD standings decline so maybe not quite so ill informed.

Why would OECD be a teachers fault?

I have had a car, have driven for years, have fixed mine occasionally so I best get on to car designers and F1 and tell them where they are going wrong

The point is you have a little knowledge of the subject and yet some think they can preach to /at and criticise the actual experts.

you never did respond to my point about a teacher coming and doing this to you when you were doing your job did you. Would you take my unpalatable observations?

Teachers – the new miners according to this government:

A long established and effective union who’s members are ripe for misrepresentation and portrayal as a militant bunch of wastrels.

My Mrs is a teacher btw – working 12 hours a day, on average, if you’re interested.

And in general, the only teachers who leave early at her school are the PE staff – they’re usually off reffing a game somewhere.

Why would OECD be a teachers fault?

The OECD measure wordwide education standards and we have declined dramatically over the last 10 years I would have thought you would know that being a teacher.
As I said unpalatable observations.

My Mrs is a teacher btw – working 12 hours a day, on average, if you’re interested.

12 hours a day on average?

I take it that ‘average’ doesn’t include the thirteen weeks a year where she doesn’t have to go to work at all?

The OECD measure wordwide education standards and we have declined dramatically over the last 10 years

He asked you why it was teachers fault. You didn’t answer the question.

No it doesn’t.

However, quite a large proportion of those 13 weeks are spent preparing and planning lessons, marking and setting out schemes of work.

What’s your point?

davidjones15 – Member

I will take your concerns into the next SQA markers meeting I attend. Honestly; on a thread full of the usual pish about teaching,your nugget about spelling being more important than subject knowledge was brilliant. In fact it was so removed from reality that I actually agree with everything Junkyard said about it,and will now have to go and shower 😉

Actually I may report you and ed2001 for having multiple log ins.

duckman – Member

Are you a real teacher in charge of real children?
Because I’d have to question your abilities. At no point did I say that spelling or grammar was more important than knowledge of the topic in hand. Just as Junkyard has imagined a scenario to fit an argument, so have you.

Won’t somebody please think of the children???? Their are fuchur.

As i said why have you not commented on your own workplace and how you would respond?

The OECD measure wordwide education standards and we have declined dramatically over the last 10 years I would have thought you would know that being a teacher

Oh nice dig but i am happy to confirm that no teacher knows everything and you will always have some sort of knowledge greater than any teacher – it might even be about your actual job but dont let that stop me from telling you where you are going wrong

Why is this a teacher’s fault?
Any chance you could answer this or shall we have a number of questions you are refusing to answer?

So what do you do exactly as i am really looking fwd to telling you what to do

Just as Junkyard has imagined a scenario to fit an argument, so have you.

I have quoted what you said and pointed out what it means
I have asked you to produce some maths to show it could not happen. Please either do so or just concede the point 🙄

I actually agree with everything Junkyard said about it,and will now have to go and shower

😆

The OECD measure wordwide education standards and we have declined dramatically over the last 10 years
He asked you why it was teachers fault. You didn’t answer the question.

FFS no you right it’s not their fault- It’s the system ,it’s the goverment ,it’s the parents , it’s the kids ,it’s the wrong exam.

FFS no you right it’s not their fault- It’s the system ,it’s the goverment ,it’s the parents , it’s the kids ,it’s the wrong exam.

So your sarcasm implies that it that it can only be the fault of the teachers ?

Well I’m sorry I didn’t know that ….. it wasn’t obvious to me.

Got any proof to back up your claim ? I need more than tabloid type knee-jerk “well it’s obvious” reactions.

FFS no you right it’s not their fault- It’s the system ,it’s the goverment ,it’s the parents , it’s the kids ,it’s the wrong exam.

Calm down dear.

A lot of the stories that crop up about poor teaching are smokescreen to deflect attention away from the fact that the government aren’t willing or able to do the things that would really make a difference like smaller class sizes, investment in facilities and implementing alternative curricula for the disengaged.

If you want to make a difference for a given set of students then teacher quality is the only game in town. The other things you mention just aren’t remotely near this one variable in terms of importance. Why would you waste time and money giving weak teachers small classes and nice classrooms?
So the government are obv right to emphasise that they’re tackling teacher quality, it’s the single most important thing that will impact education standards. Whether they’re going about it the right way is another question – probably something only a teacher would know.

If you want to make a difference for a given set of students then teacher quality is the only game in town. The other things you mention just aren’t remotely near this one variable in terms of importance. Why would you waste time and money giving weak teachers small classes and nice classrooms?

Evidence please for this assertion.
No one is arguing the quality of the teacher does not matter
Would a weaker teacher not be better with less children and better resources?
Would a great teacher be unaffected by teaching 200 in an outside portacabin?

Why would you waste time and money giving weak teachers small classes and nice classrooms?

You’re not; you’re giving pupils small class sizes and nice rooms.

Smaller classes seems to work in the private sector and I dont think there is any evidence they have better teachers.

Evidence please for this assertion.
No one is arguing the quality of the teacher does not matter
Would a weaker teacher not be better with less children and better resources?
Would a great teacher be unaffected by teaching 200 in an outside portacabin?

A good discussion of this issue can be found in this article from Gladwell here – (fairly long but interesting IMO, basically dealing with how hard it is to assess and predict teacher quality, and how crucial it is). Hanushek is the primary guy he is basing his article’s theme on if you want to get into the research behind it.

Funny how the government tell us that if we want the best bankers then we have to pay them millions, yet if we want the best teachers or nurses then you have to pay them poorly and blame them for just about every issue in society.

Want the best education system? Then pay for it.

Really?

average teacher salary puts them on the edge of the top ten percent of earners in the country – hardly poverty wages is it?

Garry_Lager –

As you say teacher quality is a hard thing to assess. My feeling is that failing teachers are far less common than the press / government would have us believe.

Yes, we need to be better at weeding them out but I’d be surprised if sacking the odd muppet had much affect on national averages.

I skimmed the first link not caring about quarterbacks and only the last paragraph has any bearing and just explains the view
the wiki link is better but does include

He is perhaps best known for the controversial assertion that “money doesn’t matter”–that is, he says that the amount of money spent in an American school district is not related to the amount of student learning in that district–and he is often called to testify in court about school funding schemes.

He is best known for his analysis of the determinants of student achievement. This analysis has documented the inconsistent relationship between school resources and student outcomes.[2] The overall findings have proved to be very controversial and have led to a variety of scholarly exchanges over time. The research related to the ineffectiveness of class size reduction has been particularly controversial and has entered into a variety of policy debates.[3] At the same time, his research has documented the overwhelming importance of teacher quality, although teacher quality is not closely related to the salaries, education, or experience of teachers. He was the first researcher to measure teacher effectiveness by the learning gains of the teacher’s students.[4] This work is the foundation of the now-common approach to assessing teacher quality by the “value-added” of the teacher. The research on the effectiveness of educational resources has been central to many debates about school finance and has been a component of court cases about state funding of schools. In other work he has shown that cognitive skills are very closely related to economic outcomes, not only for individuals but also for nations. Variations in growth rates across countries can be largely explained by consideration of the role of cognitive skills.[5] This analysis provides a justification for state and federal accountability systems that promote higher skills through improved school quality. By linking the analysis of teacher value-added with research on the economic impact of differences in achievement both for individual earnings and for economic growth, he has also estimated the economic value of high quality teachers, showing that the impact of differences in teacher quality is very large.[6]

It not universally accepted

But Hanushek’s argument has been discredited. While not every dollar a school spends directly improves academic outcomes, a new report from Rutgers school-finance expert Bruce Baker finds certain kinds of money very much do matter: extra funding for higher teacher salaries and more equitable distribution of resources between rich and poor districts, for example, are correlated with higher student achievement, especially for the neediest kids. After reviewing the body of research on school finance, Denver Judge Sheila Rappaport ruled in December that Colorado’s school funding system violates the state’s constitutional promise of “uniform” educational opportunity for all children. During the trial, Hanushek testified on behalf of the state. But Rappaport noted in her ruling that “Dr. Hanushek’s analysis…defies logic and is statistically flawed.”

http://www.thenation.com/article/167570/what-teachers-want
As i said I dint think anyone will argue teacher quality does not matter but equally i dont think anyone will argue[ ok someone will argue anything so I mean convincingly with actual evidence] that money /class sizes/resources makes no difference to outcomes.

The most influential and credible study of CSR is the Student Teacher Achievement Ratio, or STAR, study which was conducted in Tennessee during the late 1980s. In this study, students and teachers were randomly assigned to a small class, with an average of 15 students, or a regular class, with an average of 22 students. This large reduction in class size (7 students, or 32 percent) was found to increase student achievement by an amount equivalent to about 3 additional months of schooling four years later.

Studies of class size in Texas and Israel also found benefits of smaller classes, although the gains associated with smaller classes were smaller in magnitude than those in the Tennessee STAR study. Other rigorous studies have found mixed effects in California and in other countries, and no effects in Florida and Connecticut.

Because the pool of credible studies is small and the individual studies differ in the setting, method, grades, and magnitude of class size variation that is studied, conclusions have to be tentative. But it appears that very large class-size reductions, on the order of magnitude of 7-10 fewer students per class, can have significant long-term effects on student achievement and other meaningful outcomes. These effects seem to be largest when introduced in the earliest grades, and for students from less advantaged family backgrounds.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/05/11-class-size-whitehurst-chingos

Really?

Yes really. The present government obviously believes that teachers are overpaid and that their purchasing power should be reduced, hence the two year freeze on teacher’s salaries – the intention is to make them poorer.

In contrast the present government is clearly relaxed about top bankers receiving salary increases way above inflation – the intention is to see them become wealthier.

Stevewhyte’s comment is perfectly valid.

Just show how poorly paid even the top 10% of earners are. That’s amazing I would never have thought.

Poverty?? Time to go to spec savers me thinks.

If anyone would know if class sizes make a difference it would be teachers. So you would think the the government would ask them, but no.

It’s funny really how the last group to get asked their opinion on education is teachers. You have to ask why that is.

A good discussion of this issue can be found in this article from Gladwell here

A great example of the Gladwell modus operandi:

Find an interesting piece of research and weave a ton of waffle around it until it looks like you have some ownership of the original idea yourself.

It’s funny really how the last group to get asked their opinion on education is teachers.

Are you saying that Michael Gove doesn’t know anything about eduction ?

Surely he must have learnt something about education during his time as a reporter – no ?

The problem with the education system is the parents. It’s that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can’t teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.

A great example of the Gladwell modus operandi:

Find an interesting piece of research and weave a ton of waffle around it until it looks like you have some ownership of the original idea yourself. Sure, but all popular economics / social science writers do that. Gladwell is just one of the most prominent (and best) so gets more than his fair share of stick.

Even science writers like Dawkins aren’t coming up with much in the way of original ideas themselves, not at the scientific level. The Selfish gene is not a monumental text because it contained original ideas or new research.

ernie_lynch – Member
Yes really. The present government obviously believes that teachers are overpaid and that their purchasing power should be reduced, hence the two year freeze on teacher’s salaries – the intention is to make them poorer.

Really?

“Given that high quality teachers drive up pupils’ achievement, it is crucial that the pay system enables head teachers to reward the best teachers who can have the biggest impact on pupil outcomes,” the report said.

A slightly different spin on the same story. But all this anti-government stuff is making me confused, only the other day I was being pursuaded on here by the idea that

You mean the poupils can have the dedcision made for them by apolitician acountable to the peope via an electoral system or they can have it thrust apon them by a teacher who is acountable in what way exactly

…followed by

Junkyard – Member
I have had a car, have driven for years, have fixed mine occasionally so I best get on to car designers and F1 and tell them where they are going wrong. The point is you have a little knowledge of the subject and yet some think they can preach to /at and criticise the actual experts.

you never did respond to my point about a teacher coming and doing this to you when you were doing your job did you. Would you take my unpalatable observations?

…its all too much. I need to sleep on it! Bon nuit.

The problem with the education system is the parents. It’s that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can’t teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.

Absolutely spot on. It’s an ongoing thing.

I see it in prison, I see prisoners at first hand & I see visitors at first hand & I think, ‘hardly surprising’
Not all prisoners/visitors though, just a fair majority.

So why do private schools have smaller classes and spend more per pupil?

anagallis_arvensis – Member
So why do private schools have smaller classes and spend more per pupil?

Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post

How many people “work” in your authority’s EDS? 8)

The problem with the education system is the parents. It’s that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can’t teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.

Absolutely spot on. It’s an ongoing thing.

I see it in prison, I see prisoners at first hand & I see visitors at first hand & I think, ‘hardly surprising’
Not all prisoners/visitors though, just a fair majority.

the first post by someone with no kids.

the second using ‘prisoners’ to extrapolate about societal problems

I blame god……..

Time was, teaching was a respectable profession, you would ask a teacher or a magistrate to sign your passport photograph, they like the Police, were held with some respect within the community, now without going into the why’s and wherefores of post modern political Britain, that sadly is no longer the case, because of the general drop off in standards, so when you find yourself having to correct mistakes of those paid to do a task, quite naturally that respect erodes. In my case I’ve witnessed four above average intelligent girls pass through private school, it would take a book rather than a forum post to detail all the anecdotal horrors of modern education even in private schools, but suffice to say the number of teachers that these days are worth their pay is a lot less than it was a while back imv.

As to that latest piece of work, it was a history project about the role of Women in Elizabethan England, we even had a family debate as to how it compared with Women in certain Muslim countries today as an ironical aside, but, it was as with most projects a googled wikifest enhanced only by the fact No4 daughter had created an artificial tea stain induced parchment effect. Probably this that drew the excellent marking, but nonetheless the written content was lacking as indicated and not marked as such, so I can only draw one conclusion from that, and that is either the teacher isn’t aware of the ‘they’re their and there’ difference of use and meaning or simply can’t be asked, either way not a shining example for pupil or parent and certainly not the profession. If it were an isolated incident then it could be forgiven and forgotten, but it aint, at work I’m on the receiving end of CV’s that you would think might be sub edited correctly, I’ve had University Educated types who don’t know the meaning of some day to day phrases, words and their meanings, my eldest daughters having passed through University didn’t even know who Admiral Nelson was and what he did.

All the Fundamentals are forgotten, human ability to communicate by reading and writing is paramount in any job as to a certain extent is elementary maths, the three rrr’s the newspapers all crack on about, which it is the duty of all teaching folk to impart to the young, all the young not just a few and they aint doing it, it’s as simple as that.

Sorry about the rant, I tried to stay away, but seriously teachers – no it’s not the hours, or the money, sadly it’s more likely second or third generation result of bad teachers before them, they probably don’t actually know any different and lots just don’t leave the system, out of school through college then become teacher and perpetuate the dross. Not everyone, but too many for comfort.

On a more humorous note anyone seen the Bad Teacher movie starring Cameron Diaz? Hilarious, don’t you just love that woman?

my eldest daughters having passed through University didn’t even know who Admiral Nelson was and what he did.

Ha ha, that made me laugh! You sound like my Mum berating me for not knowing the capital cities of all the worlds countries “despite doing Geography at A-level”*!

I’m mid 30’s too!

* She’ll never understand truncated valleys or plate tectonic theory though…