No….not since training. But no qualms about doing so in the future

and I also work Saturdays and usually 3-4 Sundays a term

Fair enough, I wouldnt want to work in the private sector. I was just looking at all those trips, its one of my bugbears when state schools, like the one I’m at, organise ski trips for the lucky few. I think thats very wrong.

I wonder if you would have the same views if you worked at a state school? Out of intrest do you get the same pension and how does pay compare?

Teachers…

Amazing how many post on this forum at all times of day..

My 15 going on 16 yr old recently showed me a piece she’d had marked excellent, They’re, there & their were all spelt ‘there’..

Say no more really, they just don’t make em like they used to imho and as to working hard I wish it were mandatory that they had worked in a proper job in the private sector first, then maybe they’d realise how life aint as bad being a teacher as it might seem to them currently.

Yes there are no posts at all from the private sector here during work hours just teachers everywhere.
Thankfully no one here cares about grammar either

It is alos just possible that the teacher is aware of the work standards of your daughters peers, the criteria by which to assess and is able to asses progress by your daughter over time and give an appropriate mark.
I assume you would hate for the person without a “proper job” to turn up at the “real world job you have ” [ it would probably frighten them would it not?]and start telling you why you were doing it wrong and why they know better.
I never knew the only true way to understanding education and standards is to not work in education but to do a “proper job”.Who knew eh

I can only really add to this discussion from an slightly unusual perspective, but still relevant…

I’ve helped “build” (doing the legals, not actually touching dirty mud and bricks and stuff, it would ruin my shoes) quite a few schools over the years (somewhere around 30 in the UK and about to close another few in Ireland next month). I get to deal with (generally indirectly) the teachers and other people who help us turn a building into a school (if that makes sense).

These are voluntary posts on a committee/board, filled by teachers of the current/new school who are there to voice opinions on issues to do with the construction (normally fitting out) and management of the school. It’s good to get a view on how something will actually work on the ground, rather than in a contract or a designers drawing.

The people who take these positions are often exactly how I remembered my old teachers – patronising, stubborn and unable to keep their emotions (anger/frustration) under control.

However, in almost every school we’ve built across the UK and Ireland, including the large numbers we currently manage, there’s a recurring theme…they all genuinely care about, and are willing to really fight for, the welfare of the pupils. It can be quite a heartwarming sight when you’ve got a teacher sitting in on a meeting at 6pm, giving a demonstration as to why a particular door or bit of furniture won’t be suitable and won’t leave the room until they’re sure everyone has understood their point. It can be annoying at time (can’t really blame them for not being able to understand the economic or practical realities though, they’re only telling it how they see it), but you can’t fake that level of commitment to pupil welfare/teaching standards over a long construction and subsequent maintenance period.

I’ve had one guy literally throw himself down a set of stairs to try to highlight circumstances where a device used to get disabled children down stairs in an emergency might fail. It got to the stage where we had the MD of the company that manufactures the product fly in from Germany (with his 20st rugby playing son) to demonstrate how well it worked. I remember cursing that teacher every day until we had the issue resolved, but had to admire his concern for a bunch of little turds that probably didn’t appreciate him at all 🙂

Like most jobs, my hat goes off to those who actually put the effort in.

As for more pay…you get enough 😉

I do not read this as a criticism of teachers. Rather it is a simple question – would giving schools the ability to set pay levels and to discriminate between teachers depending on their performance (however defined) lead to :

1. “demotivated teachers, staffroom resentment and recruitment problems” (NUT)
2. “motivate teachers, create incentives to improve standards, assist recruitment” (Government plans)

Of course, this gets muddles up in more emotive subjects at the margin (poor teachers hiding, long holidays etc) but these seem to be red herrings in comparison to this simple, central issue. Is equality paying everyone the same, or is it paying them according to their contribution (again however defined)?

Personally, I would be happier to see teachers who are willing and able to extend education beyond the passing of current styles of exams [and, dare I say it, willing buy books that go beyond merely passing exams (sorry 😉 ] encouraged with (among other things) the opportunity to earn more than those who are not. But I know that this puts me at odds with others on here! 😉

Indeed, but the tricky part is finding others to do it who are better.

That starts with the process of recruiting students post A-Level and changing the perception of teachers and teaching.

Igrf their not all that bad!
Rogerthecat someone should tell that they’re Mr Gove

Personally, I would be happier to see teachers who are willing and able to extend education beyond the passing of current styles of exams [and, dare I say it, willing buy books that go beyond merely passing exams (sorry  ] encouraged with (among other things) the opportunity to earn more than those who are not. But I know that this puts me at odds with others on here! 

so would I but unless league tables are junked its not going happen.

I struggle with long sentences but suffice to say my wife is a teacher and a large percentage of our social circle are teachers. I don’t know *any* teacher who leaves before 1700 and most are there at 0800 preparing for lessons. Add to that Mrs. C spends at least an hour a night at home working and 25% of the weekend sorting lesson plans and other paperwork.

Teaching is not what OFSTEAD* and the nasty party would have you believe. It is bloody hard word and if broken down to an hourly rate is not particularly well paid.
.
.
.
* Speaking of OFSTEAD, Chris KnobWoodhead seems to have done rather well out of his government appointed position. ****.

Teachers…

Amazing how many post on this forum at all times of day..

I wish it were mandatory that they had worked in a proper job in the private sector first

yes, because you’d never find someone who works in the private sector posting on STW all day do you? 🙄

Is Teaching not a proper job then?

Speaking of OFSTEAD, Chris KnobWoodhead seems to have done rather well out of his government appointed position. ****.

Coyote I believe it’s Ofsted not and ofstead and Chris **** as you call him is terminally ill with motor Neurone disease,so perhaps he hasn’t done quite as well as you think.

My 15 going on 16 yr old recently showed me a piece she’d had marked excellent, They’re, there & their were all spelt ‘there’..

What was the objective of the piece of work?

Say no more really, they just don’t make em like they used to imho and as to working hard I wish it were mandatory that they had worked in a proper job in the private sector first, then maybe they’d realise how life aint as bad being a teacher as it might seem to them currently.

In my department of five, every one of us had different jobs before going into teaching, ranging from shooting people to jewellery shop to programming.

Both our pay and pensions are pegged to the national pay scale- the benefit of being in the private sector is more freedom over budgets-for us that means we can buy new textbooks and stock the department library for extra reading.

Is Teaching not a proper job then?

No, it’s not a proper job, it’s a vocation.
And that’s where the problems start.
Mrs Cat is a Midwife, devastated to have to quit due to effects of back surgery and told by the Trust that they would not support her, she would be managed out of her job – bold as brass.
People undertaking vocations can be treated poorly because they see their pupils/students/patients/etc as their primary concern unlike people like me who choose to be heartless capital bastards hell bent on exploiting our employees!!
See, it’s all black and white.

What was the objective of the piece of work?

I think I need educating in the ways of where poor spelling and/or grammar should not be part of the overall assessment, regardless of the objective. Unless the objective was an essay to highlight common mistakes in the English language.

This, as ever, will go on and on. We’ve discussed it before. Unless you have worked in anyjob you are not in a position to comment on it.

I have worked in private sector and have also taught for 15 years. It’s not the worst job in the world. It’s not badly paid. We do get long holidays.

We also seem to be Govt scapegoats at the moment and are easy targets. It is the intensity of being emotionally involved with kids that wears you down. As mentioned above dealing with issues/fights on the way to a ‘break’ (as most staff I know work through breaks getting ready for next lesson, or are on duty). Coping with and trying to motivate challenging kids – regularly get sworn at, threatened (and expected to teach that same kid next lesson). ETC etc. I could go on.

I’m normally in work for 7.30, work through break/lunch and leave at 4.30 or 5. Then about 2 hours work each night and work half of Sunday. Tonight, I’ve just got back from a school DofE trip – which I loved, but have now got to plan for tomorrow.

Hey ho. I know there are far harder/more stressful jobs. But please stop saying it’s easy. I’m getting right ****ed off with people putting us down. It would be interesting to see how other professions coped under a similar inspection regime as Ofsted. 😐

I can see both side of the argument here.

My wife is a primary teacher in a rough area where the kids struggle as they get no help from home. She works pretty long hours – out of the door at 7.30am and often not back until after 6pm – she then has marking and lesson planning in an evening. She’s not remotely interested in promotion (and has turned down the opportunity to be team leader etc) as she prefers working with the kids. She gets 1/2 day out of the classroom each week for lesson preparation etc.

Her sister on the other hand works in secondary and is a head of subject. She leaves for work at 8.30, gets loads of free periods and time out of the classroom for ‘preparation’ which if it’s at the end of the school day means she’s home before 3pm and is usually home by 3.30pm regardless. It frankly boils my pee that such a total slacker is on good money for working ‘part time’ hours and long holidays.

So there are hard working teachers and total wasters pretty much the same as in every other walk of life.

I think I need educating in the ways of where poor spelling and/or grammar should not be part of the overall assessment,

What makes you assume it was not ?
Perhaps it would have been outstanding if she could have used correct grammar as well as having an excellent grasp of the subject.
In general it is possible to answer a question accurately,use relevant sources, materials, raise crucial point and counter points, demonstrate an excellent grasp of the subject and the issue and discuss it well without actually using there,their or they’re accurately.

Should someone loose marks because of grammar?
The result is you give higher marks to someone who knows less but had better grammar which is unwise/unfair.
Would you give higher marks for better handwriting or grammar above better knowledge?

I do not read this as a criticism of teachers. Rather it is a simple question – would giving schools the ability to set pay levels and to discriminate between teachers depending on their performance (however defined) lead to :
1. “demotivated teachers, staffroom resentment and recruitment problems” (NUT)
2. “motivate teachers, create incentives to improve standards, assist recruitment” (Government plans)

3. Both?
Possibly depending on whoever is employed to perform these tasks of motivation, standard raising, incentive creating, recruitment assistance, and pay setting (sounds like a fair bit of extra work).
If results improve, great – all win. But where results drop who is then responsible, the teacher or the new management?

I think I need educating in the ways of where poor spelling and/or grammar should not be part of the overall assessment, regardless of the objective. Unless the objective was an essay to highlight common mistakes in the English language.

Little Jonny has dyslexia. Every piece of work he gets back is covered in red ink highlighting every spelling mistake. Does he notice that he knew all there was to know about ox bow lakes, or does he think he’s thick and worthless?

Mr Miketually has 50 project proposals to mark before Monday. They are assessed, and the assessment does not mention spelling, punctuation or grammar. Does he spend his Sunday afternoon highlight ever spelling mistake in the 500 page high pile of paper, or does he make sure the students know what they need to change in order to improve their grade?

Little Jonny has dyslexia.

Obviously my comment was directed at the lazy as opposed to a genuine problem.

Should someone loose marks because of grammar?

Yes, unless they have a good and genuine reason, same applies to people who spell badly or have indecipherable handwriting.
EDIT:

Mr Miketually has 50 project proposals to mark before Monday.

Would Mr Miketually make a mental note of the level of poor spelling and grammar and bring it up at the next staff meeting/or with the relevant person/or with a responsible person who has authority to act on this information?

Should someone loose marks because of grammar?

To be fair, I take off marks for use of Comic Sans, but that’s just common sense.

Yes, unless they have a good and genuine reason, same applies to people who spell badly or have indecipherable handwriting.

How many marks? And for all work, or just final assessment/exams? How would we then distinguish between the mark of someone who’s brilliant at history but can’t spell with that of a well-written history know-nothing?

How many marks?

10. 🙄
EDIT: Your kwite write mike, its knot ur problem, let sumwon else saught it out.

Would Mr Miketually make a mental note of the level of poor spelling and grammar and bring it up at the next staff meeting/or with the relevant person/or with a responsible person who has authority to act on this information?

I underline the first few mistakes and then tell them they should write it properly or I/moderator will assume they’re thick.

Interestingly, spg marks are coming back into the GCSE from 2015 for the first time in years. Will be 5 marks out of 50 or 75 (depending on the paper). They are awarding marks not just based on accuracy, but also on the range of vocabulary used.

You are now giving higher marks to someone who knows less but writes neatly and spells well 😯
How little can they know, if they write well, to pass?
In what sense are you now measuring their knowledge of the subject or question?

I underline the first few mistakes and then tell them they should write it properly or I/moderator will assume they’re thick.

But I’ve just been told it’s about the content. No wonder the kidz are confused.

In the sense that even if you know that ‘germany’ were partially responsible for starting the First World War, everyone would be more impressed if it were ‘Germany’!

You are now giving higher marks to someone who knows less but writes neatly and spells well

How on earth have you come to that conclusion?
That’s right, it’s STW. 🙄
EDIT:

In the sense that even if you know that ‘germany’ were partially responsible for starting the First World War, everyone would be more impressed if it were ‘Germany’!

Yes, of course, because using the lower case demonstrates a complete lack of attention to detail.

We place assessed work into Mark Bands; three bands per strand. A typical unit will have 5 strands. In one of the strands, we can take account of SPG when awarding the mark, but not the mark band. If SPG is poor, we can drop the mark to the bottom of the mark band.

So, an A/B grade student with terrible SPG will lose maybe 2 marks our of 60. But this very rarely happens.

But I’ve just been told it’s about the content. No wonder the kidz are confused.

I do it in a special, caring, teacher way, obviously 🙂

Interestingly, spg marks are coming back into the GCSE from 2015 for the first time in years.

Been in GCSE science for a year and have always been in the courswork AFAIK. We have a policy of only checking spelling etc in 1 paragraph. Ofsted are apparently going to be checking to see if subjects other than english are using the literaciness policy. I are all in favor.

You said so your self* and of course you added handwriting to the list of marks available.
What exactly do you think will happen if you give etc marks for this – And I really will need to see your working

*

Should someone loose marks because of grammar?

Yes,

Ofsted are apparently going to be checking to see if subjects other than english are using the literaciness policy. I are all in favor.

Eye larfed! 🙂

The trouble with any discussion of education is that everyone is an expert. After all everyone went to school didn’t they?

Is there another profession that is subject to such constant criticism and largely ill informed comment?

The trouble with any discussion of education is that everyone is an expert.

Is there another profession that is subject to such constant criticism and largely ill informed comment?

Criminology and and anything to do with the judiciary ? Most people appear to be experts when it comes to reducing crime and know exactly what needs to be done, despite the fact that very few actually have any qualifications on the subject.

Criminology and and anything to do with the judiciary

Quite probably. I also thought about politicans after I posted. Everyone is an expert there too. But you get my point I’m sure.

The trouble with any discussion of education is that everyone is an expert. After all everyone went to school didn’t they?

Is there another profession that is subject to such constant criticism and largely ill informed comment?

Or perhaps unpalatable observations from people who have been to school,have their children at school, employ school leavers and seen our OECD standings decline so maybe not quite so ill informed.