Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 305 total)
  • Talk to me about Electric Cars please
  • Premier Icon GrahamS
    Full Member

    We’re thinking about going (fully) electric for my wife’s car. Reasoning being something like:

    • It’s a 2nd car that is almost exclusively used for short journeys. (her commute to work is only 12 miles). We have a big diesel 7-seater for long family journeys.
    • Her current car is a 2009 diesel Fiesta and it is dying. She wants something more modern that doesn’t sound like a tractor.
    • New car would be a lease, so less concern about hidden cost from battery ageing
    • Probably via the salary-sacrifice NHS lease scheme which gives extra tax breaks for electric cars (I think it is something like no benefit-in-kind payable on electric)
    • Feels like a vaguely eco thing to do. (Yes we aware of the arguments about lithium mining, battery production, etc).

    Any thoughts?

    A Jaguar I-PACE or Tesla Model 3 would certainly be nice, but I think we are much more at the Nissan Leaf end of the market. 😃

    We probably won’t have a dedicated charge point installed initially as we’re planning a bunch of extension work so we’ll put it in during the house rewire for that. We figure an overnight domestic 13 amp charge will usually be fine given the short journeys and there is a higher-power charger in a car park quite close to our house if needed.

    Premier Icon P-Jay
    Free Member

    I can only add 2 things

    1) the NHS Salary sacrifice scheme was so crap 2 years ago when we looked, it was far cheaper to just PCP a new car from Seat.

    2) the Outgoing Golf E seems to be very cheap to lease at the moment, it’s not a great EV (IME ICE cars converted to EV rarely are) but it’s ‘good enough’ and for the money they’re asking a bargain.

    Premier Icon couchy
    Free Member

    You could buy and fuel a small petrol car much much cheaper than leasing a new EV for a 12 mile commute.
    But if you want to go EV to save the planet the Nisan leaf is a fair price as are the Kia and Hyundai offerings.

    Premier Icon phil5556
    Full Member

    We’ve got an i3 ordered on salary sacrifice through Zenith, not sure if that’s who the NHS use too but if it is it starts at only £15/month more than the leaf so worth a look. I’ll admit I haven’t driven the leaf but have had a go in an i3 and it’s great.

    We’ll be fitting a charger and getting an off peak Tariff as most of charging will be at home. Commute is 65 mile round trip and electric seems a good way to do it.

    There’s been a couple of EV threads recently if you have a search which have some good info in.

    BMW lead time is about 6 months though! I have to wait until the middle of June for ours 😳☹️ I guess the changes to BIK tax has suddenly increased demand?

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Full Member

    You could buy and fuel a small petrol car much much cheaper than leasing a new EV for a 12 mile commute.

    This was unfortunately the conclusion I reached looking middle of last year, That won’t remain the case forever but it still needs some more early adopters (towards the more affluent end of the scale) to break the back of EV ownership/usage and make it a bit more viable for the rest of us…

    Premier Icon switchbacktrog
    Free Member

    Have a look at the Renault Zoe.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    Seat Mii is on offer NHS Lease at the moment looks Ok for a little city car.

    I’d use the car park charger it takes 3.5 hours for my GTE to charge to full capacity on a 13A.

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    I see that the Zoé 50 is now available in the UK, not cheap though at £269 / month and £800 down if I’ve read it correctly: I hate ads where I’m not even sure I’ve read it correctly, the French offer is crystal clear and yet after reading the following I’d have to ask questions:

    https://offers.renault.co.uk/cars/new-zoe/renaultselectionszeaccess?offer=893

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Full Member

    The NHS deals seem good but do compare with what you can get elsewhere – make sure you factor in things like pension implications for salary sacrifice schemes.

    There’s good lease (and indeed purchase) deals on 40kWh Leaf, eGolf, new Zoe. I have an eGolf on lease and am really enjoying it. Range not the best but plenty for our needs, I picked it up from Bradford and drove it home (228 miles) with some rapid charges on the way, no problem at all – planning to use it for some more long journeys.

    All EVs are just really pleasant to drive, even slow ones feel much quicker than they are, always loads of zip for getting out of junctions, etc. Preheating through winter is ace too.

    Overnight charging on 3-pin is OK if your electrics are up to it, just be sensible – it’s a lot of power for sustained period of time so a knackered old socket might be a problem. Some cars can reduce their charge rate in the settings to make it even slower.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Full Member

    That won’t remain the case forever but it still needs some more early adopters

    This is pretty much our thinking on the “eco” side too – if enough people start to go electric then the demand will improve the technology, lower the cost, improve the infrastructure, etc but it needs idiots like us to take the early adopter hit.

    Premier Icon phil5556
    Full Member

    This was unfortunately the conclusion I reached looking middle of last year, That won’t remain the case forever but it still needs some more early adopters

    It’s not far off. Ours is going to cost £330 /month insured and maintained. Could have got it down to nearly £300 if I didn’t want the “S” and wasn’t fussed about colour and a couple of other extras. That’s to do 15k/year and Scottish power reckon it’ll save about £1500 of fuel a year if I mostly charge it off peak. And the priceless warm fuzzy feeling that I might just save a polar bear.

    Premier Icon swedishmetal
    Free Member

    Good real world review of Jag iPace from Harry’s Garage (Harry Metcalfe – used to own Evo magazine and is actually a Jag brand ambassador so surprisingly honest in this vid). Although it’s about the iPace some stuff is relevant to electric cars as a whole.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    The NHS deals seem good but do compare with what you can get elsewhere – make sure you factor in things like pension implications for salary sacrifice schemes.

    The figures they give you show how it effects your pension, about £80 a year in my case so I’m not concerned.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Full Member

    For reference the Nissan Leaf quote came in at £297.22 a month:

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Full Member

    Good real world review of Jag iPace from Harry’s Garage

    Take with a pinch of salt IMO. I like him but this felt a bit silly in places. Many mistakes on public charging that he didn’t need to do anyway because the car had plenty of range to do his journey.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    NHS Fleet is showing £273.20 for that same model and miles. Given it’s everything in including service and parts plus delivery to home it’s pretty good. Yes, it’s never my car and yes it effects my pension and tax but I know that’s all I’ll pay the car over the time I have it.

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Full Member

    Best for a Leaf Tekna privately for 3 years/10kpa is £258.56 although 9 months upfront.

    Bear in mind you can buy a Tekna for about £25700 at the moment, if you kept it a while it could work out better.

    Premier Icon BillOddie
    Full Member

    Make sure you buy a Tesla, that way you can bore the pants off everyone in the office about how brilliant it is (despite it seemingly spending more time in the dealership than on the road) like the Tesla Tosser in my office.

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Full Member

    I see that the Zoé 50 is now available in the UK, not cheap though at £269 / month and £800 down if I’ve read it correctly

    Does that include battery rental? You still have to rent Zoe batteries don’t you?

    Premier Icon rone
    Free Member

    Kia Soul EV 1400 down and £199 a month.

    That was two years ago.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    Best for a Leaf Tekna privately for 3 years/10kpa is £258.56 although 9 months upfront.

    Full servicing, parts and insurance?

    Premier Icon chestrockwell
    Full Member

    Those saying they looked last summer and decided again should look again. I did the same and a BMW i3s was coming out around £350. That was just a bit more than I wanted to pay at the time but I looked again a month or so ago and the exact same car was now down to £280ish so I’ve ordered one.

    You’ll have no worries just using a standard plug overnight, it works fine.

    You could buy and fuel a small petrol car much much cheaper than leasing a new EV for a 12 mile commute.

    Cheapest electric car on our scheme is a Skoda Citigo which comes in around £180pm with no deposit and insurance, tax, maintenance + tyres included. Can you get a new petrol car cheaper?

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    Indeed the Seat Mii showing as £155pm at 8k miles per annum all in.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Full Member

    Blimey, I think I need to recalibrate her sights… 🙂

    Premier Icon peekay
    Full Member

    I’ve just signed up for a Nissan Leaf through a similar work Salary Sacrifice Scheme.

    Beware the lead times.

    Never really previously considered leasing, but it works out at about £270pcm, no upfront payment, 3 years, 15k pa, including insurance, servicing and tyres. Max penalty of 2 months lease to exit any time.

    Without wanting to turn this in to a lease Vs buy thread, it seems very good value for a second car (given my current life situation: mid way through house move so money is a bit tight and first child on the way, wife’s 13 year old MX5 is apparently not compatible with child ).
    We usually buy cars second hand at about £10k, lose about £1k pa in depreciation, budget around £1k pa in service, MOT, insurance, tyres etc.
    So in effect we will be paying £1k pa extra (£3K total) for a new car, and should save most of that in fuel costs (free charging at a few local places, including at work)

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    Harry needs to get an app to tell him which charge points are free. He’s absolutely right about the irritation and inconvenience of not being able to use a credit card and I agree with his suggestions at the end. He’ll soon learn that a few minutes research is needed before each journey beyond the car’s range to find out where there are fast chargers for your car and whether it’s operational and likely to be free.

    I don’t know about Jag but Renault has a simulator on their site which gives range as a function of speed, temperature and use of the heater/air con – it’s spot on IME so Harry’s surprise at losing range faster than expected just means he hasn’t understood the relationship between speed and consumption – surprising for someone who’s supposed to be interested cars. Just trundle along with the trucks Harry, I got better range out of my old 40kWh Zoé than you got out of that Jag and it’s rare you can charge fast enough to compensate for the reduced range from going faster.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    I’ve not watched the video but reading your post Edukator Harry needs to catch up. Those cliches of wrong charger point, shock using the heater uses charge and how do I know where charge points are, they’re long out of date by almost 10 years.

    Premier Icon swedishmetal
    Free Member

    He is simply showing the positives and negatives of moving to electric and what people need to consider who haven’t had one before, which is nearly everyone.
    I didn’t realise the range could be so much reduced from what was stated just by using the basic features of the car everyone needs to use. Losing a 1/5th of the range on that long journey is a real pain – that’s when you really need the range to be accurate and honest.
    I think the charging issue is a big one. Cars need to be able to charge a lot faster and more readily than they do now.

    I think he has a real point about the speed/range issue. Why make them crazy fast at the expense of range? If they did 0-60 in 8 seconds they’d still be fast – if they slowed the cars down and increased the range that’d be a huge benefit.

    Oh and BTW – £300 a month and all you get is a Nissan Leaf??? £3600 a year and you use up more of the earths resources making a new car as dull as that one – seems a waste!!

    Premier Icon swedishmetal
    Free Member

    I’ve not watched the video

    But you feel like you are qualified to comment? Peak STW. 🙄🙄🙄

    Premier Icon swedishmetal
    Free Member

    Edukator – going fast? He was doing 70mph on the motorway, hardly going fast.
    What do you mean, stick to the trucks??

    Harry probably has more experience and knowledge of cars, including electric ones, than everyone on this forum posting today have put together.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Full Member

    Oh and BTW – £300 a month and all you get is a Nissan Leaf???

    As pointed out, that was just a quote for reference. There are many other options and different cars as others have said.

    The Skoda Citigo mentioned was £180pm with insurance, tax, maintenance + tyres included. That’s pretty damn cheap!

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    Does that include battery rental? You still have to rent Zoe batteries don’t you?

    In France it’s in with the lease of the car. Uk looks the same me. I just bought the car and battery outright. On less than 10 000km a year the lease deal was attractive, on more I reckon to do better by buying with a 5-year guarantee.

    I’m a lot more confident about battery life having used my first Zoé for 2 1/2 years. The cars that seem to suffer from early loss of battery capacity are the early Leaf which people used to regularly fast charge to the brim. I avoid that.

    Premier Icon Edukator
    Free Member

    Harry probably has more experience and knowledge of cars, including electric ones, than everyone on this forum posting today have put together.

    And many more irrational prejudices – the only other car he refers to in that vid is to eulogise about a RR Silver Cloud doing about 8mpg with no depolution equipment whatsoever. He spent the whole vid displaying (feigning IMO) his ignorance about electric cars and charging systems. Surely he isn’t that thick? I don’t believe he is, it’s just anti-EV propaganda like Clarkson.

    By sticking with the trucks I mean driving at the same speed as the trucks with nice big safety distances. Trucks do a real 90kmh on their regulators (you’ll probably have about 94kmh on the speedo) at which speed an EV will go a long way. Driving any slower would be anti-social and increas risk IMO, driving faster just increases the number of charges and means you spend more time charging than you’ve gained by going faster.

    Premier Icon Drac
    Full Member

    But you feel like you are qualified to comment? Peak STW

    No, I pointed out if Edukator is right then it’s outdated cliches. Is that what Harry was claiming that it’s tricky with the chargers and a debit card system would be easier?

    Harry probably has more experience and knowledge of cars, including electric ones, than everyone on this forum posting today have put together.

    Good for him time to drop the cliches then.

    it’s just anti-EV propaganda like Clarkson.

    Clarkson it later years supports them but like many of us will miss the grunt of petrol.

    Premier Icon B.A.Nana
    Free Member

    Have a look on leasing.com at nissan leaf 40 – £174 p.m. (£1570 initial) for an N-Connecta (good middle ground model). That’s 2 yrs and 5000miles. ( you’d have to check the extra millage cost)

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    I think the charging issue is a big one. Cars need to be able to charge a lot faster and more readily than they do now.did 5-10 years ago

    With the newest car’s we’re talking 80% charge quicker than you can drink a cup of hot coffee or make an incorrect statement on STW.

    I think he has a real point about the speed/range issue. Why make them crazy fast at the expense of range? If they did 0-60 in 8 seconds they’d still be fast – if they slowed the cars down and increased the range that’d be a huge benefit.

    Because unlike IC engines there is torque from almost zero, at the expense of it not building to a peak. So a Ferrari with 300lb-ft at 6000prm that can do 200mph might only be able to produce a fraction of that at 1500rpm (finger in the air, lets say 100lb-ft) . Whereas an electric motor can do 150lb-ft at low revs, or high revs. So to make an electric car do a very sensible 80mph, you get sports car acceleration almost by default. It’s limited more by how much current the batteries can deliver, which is related to their capacity. Hence why the long range models are also the quickest.

    And………..

    Range decreases with increasing speed as it’s a more entropic use of energy. Any car’s range drops off a cliff if you go quickly. My car will do 38mpg at 70, or 55mpg at 55mph. That electric cars do the same really shouldn’t be a surprise.

    Electric cars have a slight double whammy in this regard as around town you get regenerative braking. So not only are you using less energy per mile, you get some back too. Whereas on the motorway it’s all gone to air resistance.

    Premier Icon simon_g
    Full Member

    Ah, hadn’t realised NHS was including insurance. Good deal then, particularly if you have risk factors that make it more expensive.

    Renault UK have dropped the battery lease for the ZE50, can only buy outright. I was happy with battery lease given the reduction in upfront cost (and was tempted by a last-of-the-line ZE40) but it is confusing for end customers.

    I think he has a real point about the speed/range issue. Why make them crazy fast at the expense of range? If they did 0-60 in 8 seconds they’d still be fast – if they slowed the cars down and increased the range that’d be a huge benefit.

    Because it’s largely irrelevant for EVs. You don’t have the inefficiencies of a large capacity or tuned-for-power engine at the times when you’re not using that power. It’s far more about reducing drag – aero, tyres, drivetrain, etc.

    The EPA in the states do an efficiency / MPG equivalent figure – in effect how far you can go on a kWh of electricity. The Tesla Model 3 (0-60 in 5s) is almost the same as the Hyundai Ioniq (0-60 in 10.2). But where the Tesla and Ioniq need about 25kWh of electricity to do 100 miles, the Jaguar iPace needs 44kWh. It’s just a really inefficient car.

    Premier Icon swedishmetal
    Free Member

    Good for him time to drop the cliches then.

    Time for you to watch the video then.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    But where the Tesla and Ioniq need about 25kWh of electricity to do 100 miles, the Jaguar iPace needs 44kWh. It’s just a really inefficientmuch bigger car.

    Premier Icon swedishmetal
    Free Member

    With the newest car’s we’re talking 80% charge quicker than you can drink a cup of hot coffee or make an incorrect statement on STW.

    So it takes 80% charge in less than 10 minutes?

    If anyone bothered to watch the video you can see one of the main points. Tesla has done a lot to provide infrastructure for their own cars so you can charge them quickly. All the other manufacturers can’t be bothered to help, yes of course you could say why should they but why can’t they even agree on a socket everyone has to use?
    Everyone jumping on the EV bandwagon is just trying to profiteer from it rather than providing a decent product. Until that stops EV’s are going to be a problematic purchase for a lot of people.

    I work for a government department and we all use lease cars to do our work (fairly simple ones as a tool to get to sites we need to regulate). Even though we have recently been offered some of the EV’s available at the moment (no fast/big/expensive ones like the iPace!!) almost no-one has taken them up despite a big push from our bosses. Why? If you can’t charge them at work (none of our Yorkshire offices has any charges) and due to the relatively lower income of most operational staff they generally don’t have drives with their houses or are in rented houses so can’t have a charger at home.
    Net result is that even though the main cost of the car is covered (plus insurance/tax/maintenance – just have to pay fuel and BIK) I haven’t seen any EV take up. And we are a very environmentally conscious organisation so they want to use them but can’t.
    Even if I have an EV and charge it at home I can’t rely on an EV car for emergency response which all my colleagues are on as we have to go to a wide range of places sometimes a fair way away. We simply can’t be waiting an hour for a battery charge when we are heading out to an incident.

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