I’m not getting a lift home from him again (late on Sunday night), cos we had to stop at Booths to charge his car and I just wanted to get home”.

Luckily he charged the car overnight so he doesn’t need to stop. Unlike Duncan and his 3lt V6 who had stop on the way home while simultaneously killing polar bears. Worse still Duncan is also a vegan.

Luckily he charged the car overnight so he doesn’t need to stop. Unlike Duncan and his 3lt V6 who had stop on the way home while simultaneously killing polar bears. Worse still Duncan is also a vegan.

Worse still you catch a glimpse of B.A.Nanna buying his passenger a gregs steak bake whilst their Tesla gets a quick 10 minute top-up. You suggest this to Duncan, but his hands smell of diesel and he considers the Gregs Vegan roll to be a symbol of capitalism trying to make a quick buck out of the thing that used to make him unique and interesting (along with his 3.0 V6).

Yea, but it would only annoy those mates that otherwise conveniently forget to pay you the £40 back for petrol.

🙂 Fortunately I don’t have mates like that, but yes it has occurred to me what value would a mate, cadging a lift, put on money and time.

Greggs? We’re charging at Booths, so it’ll be a Keswick Beef & Garstang blue cheese Ciabatta, thank you.

so it’ll be a Keswick Beef & Garstang blue cheese Ciabatta, thank you.

Yeah **** you Duncan you’re having beef.

how small is Duncans petrol tank.

Now your just getting personal!!

Good video review for Duncan’s friends to know who to get a lift from.

how small is Duncans petrol tank.

17 gallons.

how small is Duncans petrol tank.

17 gallons.

so assuming an E class estate 3.5 V6 petrol.

510 miles minimum or 816 miles max

– yeah duncans still stopping less often for less time in todays market even with a 3.5 V6

And it’s not coping, it’s co-operation.

*sigh* energy security. Co-operation is great so long as we are co-operating or there are no technical failures. AFAIK Scotland is still looking at a week to get back up if we had a grid collapse, even with interconnects.

As for wind, fair point about that, I wasn’t deliberately ignoring it. DOn’t just look at headline figures though, you need to look at capacity figures which are often vastly different

so assuming an E class estate 3.5 V6 petrol.

I’ve no idea as Duncan doesn’t actually exists it’s all a joke. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Co-operation is great so long as we are co-operating or there are no technical failures.

So a bit like oil?

And bear in mind electric cars are as much a part of the solution as they are a problem.

They’ll provide a sink for all the power generated overnight or as a weather front comes through, and could make you a few quid back when it’s plugged in during the day putting some energy back into the grid.

It’s genius in a way, there’s been all sorts of falling out over green energy tariffs and levies added to consumers bills to pay for renewable generation. Which only really added upto a few hundred quid. Now we’re convincing people to stump up tens of thousands! Still a good thing, just a bit ironic.

So a bit like oil?

How many oil fired power stations do we have?

How many electrical national reserves do we have?

To answer your question without a question, no, nothing like oil.

How many oil fired power stations do we have?

How many electrical national reserves do we have?

What are you talking about?

We rely heavily on all oil from other any disruption to that can cripple the country.

I’m talking about the national grid. We have strategic reserves (or can enact the creation of) for fuel. We have no way of storing electricity then pulling it out later.

*awaits smartarsed pumped storage comeback*

Why do you think self driving cars will result in fewer cars on the road?

My car currently goes from where I am to where I want to be. If I have to order a car to collect me it has to come from where it is, to where I am before it takes me to where I want to go. This is additional miles.

Also the comment above about most cars barely making it to 100,000 miles? Well in common with a lot of low earners, I buy cars at around that mileage and then run them for 8-10 years. I am very pro EV’s but the age and range drop off does concern me. If I buy a Zoe for example at 10 years old, what sort of range will it realistically have, especially with the heater on to cope with a Scottish winter? And then am I looking at £6k to change the batteries? How does this work from an environmental point of view compared to my current car which is 19 years old, has nearly 200k miles on it and still does over 45MPG (measured average) on petrol?

What are you talking about?

Read what’s written I think he’s referring to you making another really poor analogy

Read what’s written I think he’s referring to you making another really poor analogy

You’re still upset about your friend Duncan not being real, aren’t you?

*sigh* energy security.

It’s ok, I knew exactly what your angle was. I’d be interested to know more about Gov policy around national energy security

Something people aren’t aware of is that millions of EV’s plugged into the grid will serve the grid and become part of the infrastructure, engineers at the national grid have been planning for this outcome, for years. EVs will help with grid balancing, in theory we will need less power generation, not more. (until we start to phase out gas boilers, maybe)
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/media/batteries-wheels-and-smart-charging

Duncan Burt, Director of Operations National Grid (following end of fossil engine sales 2035 announcement the other day)
“I’m saying that the Transmission Grid and the power generation capacity can cope (smart charging means we can fit it in the overnight drop in demand). The DSOs have flagged risk of challenges for the local grid but they’re working on it…”

“happy to say again that we’re happy at @ng_eso that the additional electrical load can be met”
So fair enough, he’s saying that there are challenges with infrastructure at a local level, but not national. Also worth pointing out that he won’t be including the future contribution that EV’s will make to the grid (V2G, V2H) in the future.

This might be worth looking at ofgems action plan for EV’s and supporting offshore grid, published 3 Feb
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/rewiring-britain-net-zero-future-ofgem-publishes-decarbonisation-action-plan

Regarding the “trickle not a rush” point:

Source: https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/ via r/electricvehicles

Still small numbers in the overall market but 200% year-on-year growth seems promising.

All well and good saying cars can be used to store energy. Up until the first story of someone needing to get somewhere important quickly and their battery being dead*. Cue everyone unplugging as soon as they are charged.

Also relies on cars being plugged in for availability which, unless charging, is unlikely without incentives.

Please don’t think I’m just gleefully pissing on your chips here, I want this to work but even with the best of intentions I don’t believe it’s you or I’s responsibility to do the grids job for them. Fact is I don’t believe we are close to having the grid resiliency required for renewables nor the capacity to deal with the sort of demands a modal shift to EVs would place on the system. Electric is not a silver bullet nor is it sustainable, for true sustainability you need diversity, both in supply and in demand.

*need not be true. Scooped by Heil or Express. Insert compo faced gammon holding plug here.

When I rent out my drive to Ubela …. for it to park and charge 4 of it’s cars, 2mins away from a busy london commuter rail station …. will I get “free” use of them when I want ??

All well and good saying cars can be used to store energy. Up until the first story of someone needing to get somewhere important quickly and their battery being dead

I don’t think they would just drain your car whenever they feel like it. That’s clearly not a sustainable approach.

You’d have to opt-in, I’d imagine, for compensation, and you’d have to tell them a bit about your usage. So you’d say ‘in the week I am only using this car to do 12 miles to work so you may take 20% of the energy if you need it and give me £5’

Teslas have now appeared on NHS Fleet leasing on a special deal. How much? Something up when Audi work out cheaper.

Something up when Audi work out cheaper.

why ?

tesla model 3 starts at 38k GBP audi A4 starts at 30k.

Id expect the model 3 to be more expensive to rent it costs more to buy.

I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.

I’m talking about the national grid. We have strategic reserves (or can enact the creation of) for fuel. We have no way of storing electricity then pulling it out later.

*awaits smartarsed pumped storage comeback*

~20 million ~100kWh batteries distributed around the country should about cover it.

Also the comment above about most cars barely making it to 100,000 miles? Well in common with a lot of low earners, I buy cars at around that mileage and then run them for 8-10 years. I am very pro EV’s but the age and range drop off does concern me. If I buy a Zoe for example at 10 years old, what sort of range will it realistically have, especially with the heater on to cope with a Scottish winter? And then am I looking at £6k to change the batteries? How does this work from an environmental point of view compared to my current car which is 19 years old, has nearly 200k miles on it and still does over 45MPG (measured average) on petrol?

So do I (ish, I bought it quite a bit newer then put a lot of miles on it and have no intention of selling it any time soon).

Let’s not get hung up on the ~100mile range hatchbacks like the Zoe and leaf. You wouldn’t discredit ICE’s based on the range of a BMW C1 would you?

Lets say you bought a Tesla fat 10 years old, and the battery was indeed knackered. Given there will be a lot of similar cars about generating demand for batteries either from Tesla or aftermarket refurbishment there’ll be someone meeting that demand. Now if you want to keep the car for another 10 years, and lets say the battery replacement cost £10k, that’s £1k a year (I’m sure someone will finance this, after all there’s a tangible asset they can secure it against), assuming electricity stays at about the same cost as it does now then you would be in about the same position as before (spending about £1500/year on “fuel” assuming average use).

And as I keep pointing out, if your current situation is unsustainable (it is, just about everyone’s in the UK is) and the “plan A” option of electric cars and maintaining our current lifestyle isn’t suitable then we’re heading towards a future where “plan B” which is not electric cars, but you will have to change your lifestyle because living a long way from work in a Scottish winter perhaps is the bit that’s unsustainable.

why ?

tesla model 3 starts at 38k GBP audi A4 starts at 30k.

Id expect the model 3 to be more expensive to rent it costs more to buy.

Yeah! Wrong model. I think you need a better analogy.

Oooh! It’s now gone off the list it was a model 3 Vs E-Tron 50 by the way but no matter as the Tesla has gone

I’ve not read the whole 7 pages, so apologies if this has been covered, but the main concern I have with electric cars is the manufacture (and eventual disposal) of the batteries. See quote below from an article in the Newstatesman yesterday, the stats relate to just the UK’s vehicles….. the amount of resources required if the whole planet goes electric for transport would be colossal. This would have it’s own environmental impact (e.g. subsea mining)…. and may not be economic as the price of these resources e.g. Cobalt rises with demand.

Hydrogen powered vehicles, with the hydrogen produced using renewable electricity generation seems more realistic to me. No range anxiety issue either, and the existing refuelling infrastructure could be reused.

A wider problem with the DoT’s strategy is that it is almost entirely based on switching to electric vehicles. In 2019 a letter written by Professor Richard Herrington of the Natural History Museum and signed by several of the UK’s leading geologists, raised concerns over the quantities of relatively rare resources that would be needed to replace every petrol and diesel car in the country with an electric vehicle. This would, Herrington wrote, require, “just under two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters of the world’s lithium production and at least half of the world’s copper production during 2018”.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/environment/2020/02/how-get-net-zero

Hydrogen powered vehicles, with the hydrogen produced using renewable electricity generation seems more realistic to me.

The trouble with hydrogen is…

Specially designed fuel cells may well make that safe, but you have to still have to get past that image problem.

Paul0 they’re not the definitive answer, no. They do come with some of their own issues, the batteries can be reused recycled by the way, but for now they’re their the next stage. Hydrogen might be next but for now EV is proving easier to design and manufacturer, battery technology is also changing to use other materials.

Hydrogen is a dead end for personal cars. It is just another way to store electricity, but is a less efficient way to do so and comes with all sorts of issues around generating it, transporting it, storing it and dispensing it. 15kWh of electricity in a BEV will get you about 60 miles. In a hydrogen car it’ll get you closer to 20.
It is obviously extremely flammable as shown above, needs storing and dispensing at ridiculously high pressures, and just wants to escape in to space all the time. And the cars still need batteries in them. And who wants to be tied to visiting a specific forecourt run by a fuel company when every building with an electricity supply is capable of charging a car?

On explosion – yes agree Hydrogen not ideal although petrol is also pretty volatile. Fair points around efficiency too, however arguably it’s less critical when the energy is from a renewable source. Re batteries I just question where there all the materials are going to come from…. where there’s a will and $$$ I’m sure sources will be found, but it might not be pretty. Hopefully there will be a breakthrough in battery technology…

On explosion – yes agree Hydrogen not ideal although petrol is also pretty volatile

The Hindenburg was actually the canvas burning, the hydrogen is the big fireball above it (which is relatively fine, nowhere near people).

Petrol, LPG etc tend to collect at low points however and therefore kill you to death when they burn.

Hydrogen is simultaneously ludicrously expensive to produce, yet considered a waste product to be burnt at refineries because it’s such a PITA to transport/store and therefor has little commercial value. Unless you can develop a way of moving sensible quantities of it around the country it’s a non starter. You can’t for example put it in something resembling a standard road tanker. It looks something more like this:

You can’t for example put it in something resembling a standard road tanker.

Unless you liquify it

simon_g

Subscriber
I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.

Would you have had to buy an inverter or did they supply one? I presume you have a Nissan then?

The Hindenburg was actually the canvas burning, the hydrogen is the big fireball above it

So it wasn’t electric discharge causing a spark igniting the hydrogen?

which is relatively fine, nowhere near people

I’m not sure a fireball crashing to the ground can be described as fine.

I mean 13 passengers and 23 crew were killed.

But apart from that, it was fine.

Let’s not get hung up on the ~100mile range hatchbacks like the Zoe and leaf. You wouldn’t discredit ICE’s based on the range of a BMW C1 would you?

Lets say you bought a Tesla

Zoé 50: 395km WLTP 25 640e fast charge with battery on the road
Tesla Model 3 standard plus: 409km WLTP 43 600e (say 44 500e on the road)

B.A.Nana > Octopus have a car leasing arm, so the deal was to lease a new Nissan Leaf at a discounted rate and the V2G Chademo charger and install included. You just give both the car and charger back at the end.

~20 million ~100kWh batteries distributed around the country should about cover it.

All plugged in? Sounds a bit hopes and dreams more than anything solidly reliable.

I was going to do the Octopus vehicle to grid trial (just timing was bad in the end) – they’re doing similar to most others where you set how much charge you need by a certain time then also have a baseline that it won’t discharge past – so you can always have enough to head off if you need to unexpectedly. Incentivised by paying you I think £30 a month if you plug in evening to morning at least 12 times a month.

Ah, so there is an incentive. Thanks for that.

Specially designed fuel cells may well make that safe, but you have to still have to get past that image problem.

Never did the image problem of petrochemicals any harm.

So yeah, we were talking about image problems?

we’re heading towards a future where “plan B” which is not electric cars, but you will have to change your lifestyle because living a long way from work in a Scottish winter perhaps is the bit that’s unsustainable.

You mean to say the solution isn’t just replacing every car like for like? That maybe we need drastic changes to our lifestyles that are, frankly unsustainable? I mean, it’s not like I haven’t been saying this from the very beginning…