Suella! Braverman!

First ones I found Ernie. anti east europen racism is there.

I’m sorry TJ that’s nonsense. The woman wasn’t even denied NHS treatment. She said that she would ignore the letter.

I am talking about people who came to the UK as toddlers from the Caribbean and who have actually been denied NHS treatment for cancer.

I don’t have British nationality but I won’t be denied NHS treatment when I go to the hospital on Friday because I have have the right under the EU national settled status scheme. Even if I had come to the UK only five years ago.

That option doesn’t exist for those who came as toddlers from the Caribbean with their parents and have lived practically their entire lives for the last 6 or 7 decades in the UK.

Sure their long dead parents might have screwed up and not realised what was legally necessary, assuming that there would never be a problem for their child. But deny them NHS treatment or even deport them after a lifetime of paying UK taxes? FFS

Find me white Europeans that have been treated in that manner.

It’s called the Windrush scandal for a reason. HMT Empire Windrush sailed between the Caribbean and the UK. There is no European equivalent.

It’s a legacy of Empire… these are British people being let down, often their lives ruined, by a Conservative government using bureaucracy to deny them the rights they (and the rest of us) once thought they had. If they haven’t yet done the same to people falling into the settled status (and more ominous pre-settled status) schemes that they’ve invented to water down the rights of Europeans living here… (or those missing out on them due to parental or civil service mistakes)… be thankful for now… but those people should watch their backs (in your particular case I’d be spending the money getting British Citizenship with modern and tangible documentation that you have it… don’t place yourself at the mercy of the UK Home Secretary, ever, given the choice, whoever they are).

Well you’ve hit the nail on the head Kelvin, the very obvious reason that I have never been arsed to apply for British nationality is precisely because it would provide me with absolutely no advantages at all. Plus the need to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen Elizabeth II and her successors (not very convincing when you are on Special Branch’s list of far-left activists) and I would probably fail the citizen’s test, most Brits probably would.

The only disadvantages that I can think of, genuinely, is that I can only vote in local elections and in recent years I have vaguely pissed off the staff at the French consulate by talking to them in English when applying for a passport, my French has deteriorated beyond reasonable use – their English is now much better than my French!

Other than that I cannot think of one single disadvantage. I suspect however that if I was black I would have applied for British nationality a long time ago.

It’s a Legacy of Empire

The irony is that when when HMT Empire Windrush was docking into Tilbury docks the Caribbean was still part of the British Empire. When I came to the UK I didn’t even come from British territory, and yet I now have more right to be here, along with other EU nationals, even if they have only been here for half a dozen years, than some people who came from British Commonwealth countries decades ago. It’s frankly ridiculous. And racist.

is precisely because it would provide me with absolutely no advantages at all

Having current and tangible documents to show you are have UK nationality absolutely would give you the advantage of your stay and rights here not being at the whim of a UK Home Secretary. Unlike those caught up in the Windrush scandal due to lost or destroyed documents, or anyone living here but not taking up UK nationality at all (except perhaps Irish nationals).

Nah, I’m not at the mercy of the Home Office. There is no way Britian will expell or deport French nationals. I’m better protected than Shamima Begum who was born in the UK and only has UK nationality was.

I will probably do something though because renewing my passport is a bit of a pain in the arse and also because UK law has changed and I have now have a right through my mother, due to sex equality laws. I won’t have to swear allegiance to anyone! My mother had British nationality but couldn’t pass it on to me.

I won’t have to swear allegiance to anyone!

Always a bonus!

Ernie

You said you had never heard of a european being refused NHS treatment. I found one example  and I have heard of many where european folk have had to prove their entitlement to healthcare

You said you had never heard of anti european racist attacks – again I have heard of many and found you one example

Yes its not the same.  However to say these things do not exist is wrong.  they do

Nah, I’m not at the mercy of the Home Office. There is no way Britian will expell or deport French nationals.

I’m sure Boris Becker once thought similarly. I know of Irish citizens who have been deported and we have a common travel area agreement.
(To be clear I don’t care what you do about citizenship but I would put nothing past the Home Office atm)

You said you had never heard of a european being refused NHS treatment.

No I did not say that at all. I said that I knew of no examples of Europeans who came legally into the UK as toddlers, lived here uninterrupted for decades, paid all their taxes, being refused NHS. It’s happened to people from the Caribbean.

I found one example

No you didn’t. That was not a comparable example at all. She wasn’t even refused NHS treatment. Plus she said that she would ignore the letter. Did you actually read your own link?

There is no racism against Europeans when it comes to immigration and nationality legislation and procedures.

But the obsession on here is to bang on about alleged racism against Europeans.

Edit: Whilst ignoring actual racism against black people.

Edit 2 : ** Or denied NHS treatment – Windrush Generation individuals have been denied NHS cancer treatment,

Edit

so I found you one example of racist attacks on a european so they are real not alleged.  I found one example of someone having to prove their entitlement toNHScare

Yes you are right some of the windrush folk could not prove their entitlement or found it very hard and yes you are right its a disgrace

I also carefully did not call the tories scum for their actions or condemn them in strong words partly because have told me off for that before 🙂

Good point kilo, probably best to get Brit nationality in case I get a custodial sentence of more than 12 months.

Although of course we know that they can withdraw Brit nationality due to criminal activity. So pointless.

TJ the example you threw up concerns possible non-UK residents. Non-UK do not, understandably, have an automatic right to certain NHS treatment/procedures, why should they? That’s not necessarily racism at all

The examples I am referring to concern UK residents from the Caribbean who have lived here for decades, and are refused NHS treatment – that is racism imo.

There really isn’t a comparison between the two.

I found one example of someone having to prove their entitlement toNHScare

No you haven’t. You have found one example of someone who is refusing to prove her entitlement, without any evidence on your part that she has been refused treatment.

There is no comparison with the injustices meted out to some from the Windrush Generation.

My point was re your comment that the UK won’t deport French citizens. The HO is perfectly happy to deport EU nationals.

Withdrawal of British citizenship due to criminality is actually very difficult to action. The threshold is involvement in serious organised crime, with a lengthy appeals process, as opposed to just getting a 12 month sentence, the threshold for deportation. Deprivation and deportation are miles apart in practice, law and use.

👍

And how many on here care? Where’s the usual ranting and outrage about how terrible the Tories are?

It is a thread about Braverman – any outrage comes by default and there is no need to rant about how terrible the tories are when she is peak terrible tory and 99% of people know that already.

I think Ernie’s got a valid point and we should all be aware of our implicit bias. Part of it is just pure selfishness. We are all going to be affected personally by the racism of the Brexit vote (it may be a ‘lesser’ racism but it was still driven by racism) if we’re not already being affected so it tends to dominate our focus.

Windrush is not going to affect me personally. I am angry about it, but in the same way that I’m angry about a lot of things that don’t affect me personally.

However, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that the Tories were emboldened by the referendum. Of course, this all started in 2011 but the referendum really gave the Tories validation that they were on the right track and racism wins votes.

So yeah, ernie, we all suffer from implicit bias and in an ideal world we could distribute our anger to the most worthy causes but humans just don’t work like that, unfortunately.

However, you still tried to use this issue to score petty STW points and you still voted for Brexit. You are more responsible for this than any of the people here you are trying to shift the blame onto.

For someone who goes on about petty point scoring it is strange Bruce that you feel it necessary to keep telling me what my motives were for posting a link to an important story concerning the Home Secretary Suella Braverman.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but I know exactly why I posted a significant story about Suella Braverman on a thread about Suella Braverman, I really don’t need to be told.

There is nothing strange about me adding my personal view when I posted the link to the Guardian story.

Expressing my disappointment at the Labour leadership’s apparent weak response at a very significant injustice was perfectly valid imo, especially in light of the fact Labour has been repeatedly accused on stw of pandering to racists.

It also greatly contrasts Sir Keir Starmer’s very high profile campaign against alledged anti-Semitism – no one has been denied NHS cancer treatment or deported in recent years due to anti-Semitism.

I also think it was perfectly valid for me to make the connection between immigration from the Caribbean and freedom of movement, we are talking about the right of people to enter and settle in the UK. And different attitudes towards FOM and Commonwealth immigration are very much linked to racism imo.

I don’t like racism and if you want to suggest that me highlighting it is merely an exercise in pretty point scoring then that’s up to you, but I will continue to do so especially when it is bound up with high levels of hypocrisy.

The Windrush scandal does really wind me up exceptionally. I think it is probably because of a combination of factors – gross injustice, obvious racism, and the fact that although it was never going to affect me I too came to the UK as very young immigrant child, it somehow makes it more personal for me.

And just so you can accuse me of more petty point scoring here is another example of racism combined with hypocrisy which sickens me:

Labour crisis intensifies as ‘racist’ candidate picked

Edit: That above story will not get a fraction of the coverage that alledged anti-Semitism got in the media when Jeremy Corbyn was Labour leader. Black people in the UK simply don’t matter to the Labour Party as much as Jews and East Europeans do. Perhaps they are the wrong colour.

I’m sure Cruella will be quietly chuffed about this:

On this day last year, the Home Office’s Afghan resettlement scheme (ACRS) opened, promising to resettle 20K Afghans – 5K in its first year

A year on, not one person has been relocated from Afghanistan under the scheme

Short thread? pic.twitter.com/ZBkwFlzynX

— May Bulman (@maybulman) January 6, 2023

This tells you everything you need to know about the supposed ‘safe routes’ that she was clearly so clueless about at the last parliamentary committee. This government covers itself in glory once again

Like I said, I agreed with everything you said. So far I haven’t seen anyone who has disagreed.

However, you seem to be saying I objected to everything you said. I didn’t, please stop saying I did.

What I objected to was Mr. ‘I never talk about Brexit’ telling the rest of us off and bringing Brexit into the discussion in order to highlight our ‘hypocrisy’.

If you don’t want to address my point that it was your vote for Brexit that helped turbocharge all forms of racism in the UK then that’s fine. I understand the subject falls foul of your convoluted formula for determining what constitutes talking about Brexit and what doesn’t.

I own my implicit bias and I accept it means I don’t focus as much on some issues as I do others. I consciously try to account and correct for it that but I am human and I also accept that I’m going to be more concerned with things that affect me directly.

Can you accept your own shortcomings in this or are you going to continue to pretend that the Brexit vote had no effect on overall levels of racism in the UK?

Can you accept your own shortcomings

Well thankfully you are here to point them out to me, so hopefully that should help.

Expressing my disappointment at the Labour leadership’s apparent weak response at a very significant injustice was perfectly valid imo, especially in light of the fact Labour has been repeatedly accused on stw of pandering to racists.

a perfectly valid point IMO and i also get the point about no mention of this on STW considering other topics that get discussed to death.

I do not see this as internet point scoring from Ernie but I see why it can appear like that.  Ernie is the best (mass?) debater on here IMO.  He has strong views and makes them known strongly

Rarely anything but polite and well thought thru argument.  Sarky bugger at times tho 🙂

Ernie and I butt heads a lot but there is no personal animus just two folk with strong views butting heads.  He often makes really good points and makes me stop and think. . I for one welcome his contributions as its a part of making this place less of an echo chamber.

I do not see this as internet point scoring from Ernie but I see why it can appear like that. Ernie is the best (mass?) debater on here IMO. He has strong views and makes them known strongly

Rarely anything but polite and well thought thru argument. Sarky bugger at times tho 🙂

If he wants to debate then he can debate. What I’m getting sick of is him popping up on threads to make snarky comments regarding Brexit and then saying, ‘I don’t talk about Brexit’ when he gets challenged.

Talk about Brexit or don’t talk about Brexit, it’s absolutely fine either way. Just don’t get upset if people want to talk to you about Brexit if you start talking about Brexit.

@ernielynch

My daughters were very nearly denied entry into the UK last year. They were 15 and 17 at the time, travelling with my wife and I in the same car back from the continent. They were both born in the UK and have lived there all their lives, gone to school here, have NI numbers and NHS numbers.

The reason?   Both only have Dutch passports. The border guard said she had reasonable belief that they would be staying longer than 3 months (no shit love, they live here).

Had they been travelling alone they would definietly have been detained. Apparently even though they were born here (which it says on thier Dutch passports) they absolutely have to have a British passport or apply for right to remain.

My wife who is Dutch and has lived here for 25 years in continuous employment at a pretty high level has also been asked to prove her status numorous times in various circumstances over the last 12 months, but very rarely before that.

Things are getting much worse very rapidly and I don’t doubt for a second that as a French citizen without a UK passport you will come up against increasing pressure to ‘prove’ your legitamcy as the whole Brexit shitshow continues

This country is so messed up its beyond belief

I thunk the moral of the story is get as many passports as you can in these troubling times.

My partner was born abroad to an English mother and travelled here regularly with right of abode until she moved here at 15 (never really gave it much attention as it was never a problem).

Traveling to Europe could be a problem so about 15 years ago she decided to get her British passport to make traveling on the continent easier. Bloody glad she did that then rather than waiting till now…

Citizenship ceremony was an utter pantomime and amounted to nothing more than pledging allegiance to the queen and her descendants to some people dressed up like Morris dancers. It was outrageous and my partner sent me home half way through the ceremony lest I say something.

She said things only got worse after I left so she was probably right to send me on my way, she said many people were confused with what was going on and the atmosphere was awful.

What I’m getting sick of is him popping up on threads to make snarky comments regarding Brexit and then saying, ‘I don’t talk about Brexit’ when he gets challenged.

Yeah it’s a point which you have made more than once Bruce, I think everyone, including me, gets it.

And I have also already made the point that I am perfectly prepared to question the validity of blaming everything on brexit and this obsessive attitude which only wants to talk about brexit and practically nothing else. I don’t think that I am the only one to see it like that.

However I am not prepared to debate the issue of whether the UK should remain in the EU, which was always very difficult to debate sensibly anyhow – if you don’t agree you are a looney/stupid/racist, and is no longer a relevant question, or the issue of rejoining which is clearly not going to happen anytime soon.

If that makes you “sick” I can only offer my apologies, it’s just the way it is, I won’t be changing what I post. You might consider lightening up though and not getting too upset about what other people post? It works quite well for me – if I disagree I might challenge them but I tend not to create a song and dance concerning how upset they have made me feel.

Winston – thanks for your advice. Yes entering a country with a hard border can occasionally cause issues. However I am very confident indeed that not having a UK passport will not disadvantage me in my ability to enter the UK.

I can prove settled status, which gives as much right to enter the UK as a UK passport holder within less than 5 seconds – the time it takes me to write “settled status” in the search box of my email account in my phone. I’ve just done a dry run.

When the Home Office granted me settled status they made it clear that I would not be getting a hard copy and that the Home Office email and the links provided was all that I needed to prove my legal right to enter and remain in the UK.

I might not have needed to provide proof when the UK was in the EU but now that the UK has a hard border I might be asked. It might be vaguely inconvenient but it’s not exactly the end of the world – it’s what happens when you enter most countries in the world.

And back on topic, the EU settled status scheme is not available to the Windrush Generation. As an EU national I have more rights in the UK than some people born in Commonwealth countries.

People effected by the Windrush scandal had MORE rights here than those now with settled status… or indeed than EU citizens living here before Brexit… what they didn’t have (through no fault of their own) was the EVIDENCE that they did. I wouldn’t trust the home office to keep records for me, or administer a digital only scheme, I’d want firm documentation in my own hands (and I do). Great that you’re so relaxed about it all, but, please, don’t get caught out.

and I would probably fail the citizen’s test, most Brits probably would.

A Polish friend of mine was studying for her citizens test, and while I’m no historian, I like to think I’ve a pretty good grasp of British history, and honestly I’d have failed so hard they’d have put me on a plane to Rwanda the same day. Its a ridiculous thing.

Yeah, my wife was vaguely thinking of getting a UK passport at one time so we tried a few of the ‘mock’ papers. Absolute nonsense – I couldn’t get half the answers right. Questions about friggin UK TV gameshows , Royal palaces and mad traditions absolutely no one has done since the dark ages.

To be expected I guess as they want you to fail

Yeah, my wife was vaguely thinking of getting a UK passport at one time so we tried a few of the ‘mock’ papers.

A few got passed around at work by someone applying for citizenship. All of us, apart from him, failed.

Yeah it’s a point which you have made more than once Bruce, I think everyone, including me, gets it.

I’m not sure if you do get it. You know how people keep telling you you’re trolling? They keep telling you that because that’s what you’re doing.

Snarky comment then run away = Trolling.

However I am not prepared to debate the issue of whether the UK should remain in the EU, which was always very difficult to debate sensibly anyhow – if you don’t agree you are a looney/stupid/racist, and is no longer a relevant question, or the issue of rejoining which is clearly not going to happen anytime soon.

That’s one thing you won’t discuss. There are many others.

Basically, as soon as you get asked a difficult question the ‘I don’t discuss Brexit’ excuse comes out.

If that makes you “sick” I can only offer my apologies, it’s just the way it is, I won’t be changing what I post. You might consider lightening up though and not getting too upset about what other people post? It works quite well for me – if I disagree I might challenge them but I tend not to create a song and dance concerning how upset they have made me feel.

And now you are trying to reframe our exchange so that your original objective (to troll and get a reaction) has been met.

You believe what you have to.

@winston

My daughters were very nearly denied entry into the UK last year. They were 15 and 17 at the time, travelling with my wife and I in the same car back from the continent. They were both born in the UK and have lived there all their lives, gone to school here, have NI numbers and NHS numbers.

We had a similar conversation coming back from France, my wife who is French handed over the passports and handed over the girls French passports by mistake, both are dual citizens. The passport control person then started to question my wife’s right to remain and asked to her certificate. Which didn’t go down very well with my Wife, this sort of thing just enrages her. She has been in the UK for 30 odd years, all they need to do is check her NI & NHS numbers on the system, but no they have to make a point. Just really makes one feel welcome.

you’re trolling…

Snarky comment then run away = Trolling.

to troll and get a reaction

Well if I’m trolling why do keep engaging ffs – isn’t the normal advice to ignore trolls? Other than to personally criticise me I don’t see the point.

Edit: In all the years that I have been on stw I don’t recall ever calling anyone a troll. There are a very small number of people on here who what they post has a tendency to annoy me slightly, what I tend to do is to try to avoid reading their posts. I don’t think that the appropriate reaction is to accuse them of being trolls.

Which one are you Ernie?

Trolls by TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

🙂

Probably the biggest one on the Left I guess.

Probably the biggest one on the Left I guess.

Applauds

LOLs

Well if I’m trolling why do keep engaging ffs – isn’t the normal advice to ignore trolls? Other than to personally criticise me I don’t see the point.

Edit: In all the years that I have been on stw I don’t recall ever calling anyone a troll. There are a very small number of people on here who what they post has a tendency to annoy me slightly, what I tend to do is to try to avoid reading their posts. I don’t think that the appropriate reaction is to accuse them of being trolls.

Because I’ve decided you’re my special project.

Trolling is not just annoying people. It’s contributing nothing to the discussion while trying to wind people up. That’s what you seem to be trying to do when people are discussing Brexit.

So, every time you make a snarky Brexit comment and then do your usual, ‘I don’t talk about Brexit’ I’m going to point it out to you since you seem to be oblivious (giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not intentionally trolling and just think you’ve come up with a really really clever way of discussing Brexit).

Like I said, if you don’t want to discuss Brexit don’t start talking about Brexit and everyone can go about their day.

Because I’ve decided you’re my special project.

Thanks, I didn’t realise that you cared that much. Makes me feel special.

I like to think I’ve a pretty good grasp of British history, and honestly I’d have failed so hard they’d have put me on a plane to Rwanda the same day. Its a ridiculous thing.

At the risk of being called a troll and accused of point scoring, because it is likely to get a negative reaction from someone (only criticise the Tories not Labour, unless it is to do with Brexit) I think it is important to remember that the whole daft American inspired idea of a citizens test came from a Blairite Home Secretary. It was a Labour government that introduced the citizen’s test through an act of parliament – Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002

The reason it is important imo is because the whole problem needs to be understood. As I have said previously imo the single most racist aspect of the UK is its immigration and nationality legislation. And that applies both under Tory and Labour governments. So it is not enough to attack Tory governments and yet remain silent whenever a Labour government comes to power.

I have no problem with immigration controls, imo they are clearly necessary. What I have a problem with however is when they are clearly racist. David Blunkett as Home Secretary backed the citizen’s test imo to pander to the tabloids and because the right-wing of the Labour Party wanted to appear tough on immigration – give immigrants another hurdle to jump over.

The citizen’s test, which btw isn’t only for those wishing to become naturalised British citizens but is also necessary for anyone seeking indefinite leave to remain in the UK (although thankfully not EU nationals under Settled Status) is daft on several levels imo.

Firstly it simply isn’t needed – if UK born citizens don’t need to know the answers to the questions to be good citizens why would foreign born ones need to?

Secondly it is strongly biased towards foreigners of European heritage, you can decide how intended that is. Apparently, for example, the pass rate among Australians is much higher than among Bangladeshis.

Secondly the questions are bollox, who gives a **** what king was married to who 500 years ago? They could at least have questions that might actually be useful to know the answers to, eg, who do you pay council tax to? What is an MOT certificate? How do you access primary care? What number do you phone in an emergency? And so on.

And thirdly there is no guarantee that the private firm that is responsible for the citizen’s test, and which presumably makes large amounts of money out of the scheme, actually knows the correct answers themselves:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/apr/29/immigration.immigrationpolicy

I don’t know if those facts were set by a foreigner but the one quoting Winston Churchill certainly looks as if it might have been.

And in one case they have impressively managed to get their legal, historical, and geographical facts, all mixed up and wrong in just one statement:

Claim: Great Britain includes Northern Ireland

Fact: The United Kingdom includes Northern Ireland. Great Britain is made up of England, Wales and Scotland.

Those questions were set when we had a Labour government btw.

Edit : To be fair I’m not sure if the guide “Life in the United Kingdom: a Journey to Citizenship,” was actually written by the private firm or the government.

Bloody Labour – grr!