Suella! Braverman!

Here we go again 🙄

Get a room, you two.

Deleted.  Pointless and apologies two dogs.  I shouldnot bite

And btw:

Because you are both a brexiteer and anti racist you cannit accept tbe unleashing of racism since brexit.

The editorial writers of the staunchly Remain supporting Guardian don’t agree with you:

“the toxic Brexit divide is fading; and social attitudes continue to become more liberal”

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/04/the-guardian-view-on-the-uk-falling-apart-labour-must-reject-the-orthodoxy-that-caused-it-to-crumble

So why do they not agree that brexit has unleashed racism and believe that in fact the opposite has happened and attitudes “continue to become more liberal”?

Yes we are slowly becoming more liberal but that was after a massive jump backwards as the campaign for Brexit made it ok to be opennly casually racist again in many peoples eyes. The Brexit campaign 100% enabled really nasty people like cruella to get into positions of power. If you cant see that……

So the UK is becoming both more racist and more liberal at the same time, wow, some spectacular acrobatics going on there.

enabled really nasty people like cruella to get into positions of power. If you cant see that……

She isn’t even Prime Minister. David Cameron, the pre-referendum UK Prime Minister, was repeatedly accused of being both islamophobic and racist. Here is another example:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/27/david-camerons-bunch-of-migrants-quip-is-latest-of-several-such-comments

‘You have got a swarm of people coming across the Mediterranean, seeking a better life…’

Yup, comparing migrants with insects…..long before the UK left the EU. And where is the proof that the Daily Mail wasn’t as bigoted as it is now. I don’t remember these halcyon days.

Edit: Btw whichever Guardian editorial writer wrote these words “the toxic Brexit divide is fading” obviously doesn’t post on here!

I shall make it simple for you as you are clearly being hard of thinking tonight, during Brexit the country became a lot more racist, since Brexit we have become less racist but are still a lot more racist than we were before the referendum. Now that wasnt that hard was it.

Cruella is home secretary, if you dont think that is a position of power……

You have got a swarm of people coming across the Mediterranean, seeking a better life…’

And I simply have no idea why they want to.

Maybe the answer to the mass immigration is to make the Daily Mail available across the world.

Start handing out free copies in North Africa.

poopscoop – what are you frying?
Must be good as you’ve been (almost) silent for ages – other than random PSAs.

doesn’t suit your knuckle-dragging halfwit moronic view

Wow indeed.

as you are clearly being hard of thinking tonight,

LOL! Time to resort to personal insults!

since Brexit we have become less racist but are still a lot more racist than we were before the referendum. Now that wasnt that hard was it.

Perhaps a letter to the Guardian pointing out that their editorial writer had missed this vital observation in their comment piece?

Still, now we know that the UK is becoming less racist I guess the “unleashed” racism that TJ talked about isn’t very important. Which is great to hear.

Yes – very low quality of Insult.  Ernies insults are usually far better 🙂

Fair point TJ. Although I was referring to your pov rather than you as an individual.

I just find this constant reference to brexit at every given opportunity without even bothering to think tedious.

And as for you claiming that you “bit”, it certainly wasn’t me who brought up brexit.

It is possible for ‘The UK’ to be simultaneously becoming more racist and more liberal. Because ‘The UK’ isn’t something that can just be averaged, the UK is made up of countries, regions, towns, and eventually people.

Broadly we are becoming more liberal, that’s pretty clear if you look at surveys and attitudes compared to say the 60’s or 70’s or 80’s, but that liberalisation seems to me to have slowed. At the same time there is a racist, illiberal element that seems to be growing and more visible. Social media plays a big part in providing a platform to visibility but the last 5-10 years has seen the rise in the more right wing and racist elements – not just in the UK, Le Pen, Orban, Meloni, etc in Europe, etc.

Where the average sits and what direction that average is moving isn’t the point; it’s the growing divide.

40% rise in racist attacks post brexit.  A friend of mine was subject to one ” we voted out – you can eff off home now” Screamed in her face

Anyone that thinks that Braverman (ex chair of the ERG) would be where she is today if it wasn’t for Brexit is kidding themselves. Same goes for many of the incompetents in government posts now spouting divisive nonsense to desperately try to relight that populist spark. I don’t think it’s going to work for them, but what else do they have…?

Of course we’ve had many Home Secretaries try this path before, before Brexit. May being one of the worst examples. Braverman can be, and is, much more explicit with it though. That Mail piece about Muslims being an awful example. And her recent pronouncements in the USA trying to get people thinking that simply being gay gets you a fast track path to UK residency. Getting ready for some more othering opportunities there it seems. Definitely less liberal than we’ve had, even in the Home Office job, for a long long time.

A friend of mine was subject to one ” we voted out – you can eff off home now” Screamed in her face

Was this in Scotland?

You have got a swarm of people coming across the Mediterranean, seeking a better life…’

And I simply have no idea why they want to.

You need to give your head a wobble. “Nationals of five countries – Iran, Albania, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria – made up 71% of those crossing in small boats between 2018 and March 2023.”

I hopee you’ve read a newspaper in the last 20 years and the reasons why life is not as good in the UK as in 4 of those countries is obvious. As for Albania, it is perfectly peaceful, but average wages are 4 times higher in the UK than there. If you’re a single man, you have an obligation to go out into the world and earn money to support your family. You and I would do the same.

It’s not a mystery why people come to the UK by any means necessary – no matter how hard life has become in the UK for the most vulnerable recently.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/people-crossing-the-english-channel-in-small-boats/

https://take-profit.org/en/statistics/wages/albania/

You have to remember that the UK takes only a very small fraction of european refugees.

Why do any of them want to come to the UK rather than Germany or the Netherlands

IMO ( and I am sure I read some research on this)

Joining family is a big reason

Speaking english is another

No ID cards is another so its easier to live undocumented

And weirdly the UK still has a reputation as a fair and nice society in many places

Yes it ws in Edinburgh politecameraaction.  We have our Bams here as well

40% rise in racist attacks post brexit

I don’t know if that stat is correct but even if it is it doesn’t prove that the UK has become more racist, only that there have been more racist attacks.

A friend of mine was subject to one ” we voted out – you can eff off home now” Screamed in her face

The fact you personally have a friend who experienced that merely proves that there are still racists in the UK, not that it is a new phenomena.

Broadly we are becoming more liberal,

I agree, in fact it is something which I am constantly pointing out – I keep banging on about how much more racist the UK used to be. That however seems to be very much at odds with the current stw consensus. Have you not read all the rants (ironically) about “gammons”?

And weirdly the UK still has a reputation as a fair and nice society in many places

There is nothing weird about it unless you believe that the UK is uniquely racist, which you seen to think it is.

In my opinion UK is the most multicultural and least racist country in Europe. I cannot think of any other European country which is as multicultural and has such relatively low levels of racism as the UK.

I agree. Braverman says that multiculturalism has failed here. She’s wrong. It is under attack though. Some will claim that attack has nothing to do with Brexit. That’s wilful blindness. No one thinks that Brexit is the start and end of attempts to fight back against multiculturalism in Britain, but it was part of the “success” of that vote, and the result emboldened many of those who think that way.

the result emboldened many of those who think that way.

I do understand the perceived logic behind that claim even if I don’t necessarily agree with it.

Personally I see it as a cop-out, to blame the referendum result on racism provides a simple and easy explanation in which all guilt is directed at voters.

And ironically it plays straight into the hands of right-wingers and racists…..”see, voters agree with us”, they will say when you blame it on racism. Whilst letting them completely off the hook.

My attitude is “no, you are wrong, voters are not generally racist, nor do they hate immigrants, and they are certainly not becoming more racist, the problem isn’t that it is decades of right-wing politics which has disenfranchised people and increased inequality”.

But let’s say for argument sake that the result has indeed “emboldened” racists, why does the Guardian editorial claim that in the UK social attitudes “continue to become more liberal”? Surely the now recently emboldened racists should be putting a stop to this growing liberal attitude?

Of course the Guardian editorial writers could be completely wrong in their claim. But when I make the same claim I am told that I am simply in denial because I supported leave. The Guardian editorial writers were staunchly pro-remain, so what is the reason for them making the same claim?

It’s not the “same claim”. See stumpyjon’s post above.

The tide is currently against Braverman and her approach in my opinion. What’s got her into government won’t keep her there beyond an election. If she’s thinking longer term, rather than just looking at the next election, she might get some mileage out of it yet. Even if she doesn’t, there’s a constituency* that it plays well with and I’m sure she can make a career out of it.

[ *yes, not just in the UK, but in the USA and EU countries and elsewhere as well ]

It’s not the “same claim”

Yeah it is, I agree with the Guardian that UK social attitudes “continue” to become more liberal. To say that racists have become “emboldened” because of the referendum is completely at odds with that claim.

I also agree with the Guardian’s editorial that “the toxic Brexit divide is fading”, which again is something very much at odds with the stw consensus.

In fact there is quite a lot I agree with in that editorial, and I am not a massive supporter of the Guardian’s editorial policy on general. It is well worth a read imo. Here it is again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/sep/04/the-guardian-view-on-the-uk-falling-apart-labour-must-reject-the-orthodoxy-that-caused-it-to-crumble

“the toxic Brexit divide is fading; and social attitudes continue to become more liberal”

The two go together.

So you agree with that statement? That’s fantastic!

What’s been happening over on the brexit thread? I haven’t looked in a while.

Everyone has given up on it because there is a consensus that it has damaged the UK with no gain. And I don’t just mean the consensus in that thread or on this forum. In the UK more generally Brexit is seen as a flop best not talked about. Can we go back to talking about the Home Secretary again?

I just find this constant reference to brexit at every given opportunity without even bothering to think tedious.

Well, buckle up, buttercup! Brexit is a concrete weight on the ankles of the UK economy!

If you all stopped bickering and maybe read theotherjonv’s post again you might find the actual sensible answer.

The majority of people are more liberal and accepting, and embrace the opportunities multiculturalism brings.

Brexit – pushed by social media – gave the less tolerant minority (and other disaffected groups) a chance to have their say, and they (and the politicians who thrived on it) are now doubling down on it, and that has encouraged the increase in racist attacks, which has been well documented even if I’m not going to go hunting for actual stats at this time of the morning.

Intelligent people really seem to struggle with anything that isn’t all or nothing, black or white.

Well said more cash

Brexit clearly emboldened the racists,continues to cause huge damage to the UK and the process is not even finished yet.  I find the willfull blindness to the damge brexit has caused astonishing.  that damage runs from a massive increase in racist attacks to ending up with a racist and incompetent government

Braverman adds that multiculturalism has failed and that “the nation state must be protected.”

Wasn’t expecting Braverman to be such a staunch Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalist.

I just find this constant reference to brexit at every given opportunity without even bothering to think tedious.

Well, buckle up, buttercup! Brexit is a concrete weight on the ankles of the UK economy!

So how about just tediously bringing up brexit during every economic discussion?

What was being discussed is the fact that the Daily Mail has been forced to issue an apology for publishing an article written by Braverman, which made false claims concerning rape and Pakistani Muslims.

The Daily Mail has been publishing islamophobic articles for years, and Tory politicians, including Tory leaders, have been making islamophobic comments for years. It has nothing to do with the economic situation allegedly caused by brexit.

So how about just tediously bringing up brexit during every economic discussion?

Because its central and key to both the economic and political situation the UK is in and causes huge economic damage.  Its the elephant in the room

Can we go back to talking about the Home Secretary again?

Was that question directly at me? I certainly didn’t bring up brexit.

I find the willfull blindness to the damge brexit has caused astonishing.

And I find the imaginary belief that islamophobia, in this case Braverman’s islamophobia, has been caused by leaving the EU astonishing.

For a start it requires a belief that there was less islamophobia when the UK was still in the EU, and presumably that there isn’t any islamophobia among government ministers in EU states.

A quite astonishing belief when you consider the extremely high levels of islamophobia in Europe.

Still, I guess if that belief gives a simple answer to something which you can’t really explain I can see the attraction.

Thanks morecash – I must have had a ghost writer or something.

Taking it further – it’s not just the numbers on each side and the swing of the UK towards one or the other, but there’s another metric which is numbers x what those numbers actually do.

At the moment it’s mainly words, but those words are getting harsher and amplified by the number of channels available for them. Deeds are currently less substantial – although attacks on immigration centres, for example do happen. Even Gov policy, while worrying in the direction being taken, is tempered by our democratic process and the fact that not all Tory ministers are fully paid up members (and also that their time seems to be numbered).

But if the racist elements (let’s pick on them for now but we could also go anti-LGBTQ+, particularly anti-trans, etc) started to move to action – violence, for example – then we’d see the UK becoming ‘more racist’ even if the ‘number who are racist’ didn’t change.

Braverman’s islamophobia, has been caused by leaving the EU

presumably that there isn’t any islamophobia among government ministers in EU states

No one said any of those things. Except you, the well practiced strawman generator.

even if the ‘number who are racist’ didn’t change.

I thought according to the vocal minority on stw half the UK population was/is racist?

Is that still the case? I’m losing track.