Speeding Ticket – what would you do?

Right, well my philosophy on speeding tickets is if you were speeding and get caught, stop whinging and pay the fine. End of. Its happened to me before, i knew i was speeding when i saw the van and when i got the ticket i thought, oh well, my fault.

That was until last friday. My commute to work involves a stretch of dual-carriageway where there is a cameravan parked at least once a week. Hence why i never go above the speed limit at any point and chuckle to myself at least once a week when i see people go speeding past only for a camera van to be around the corner. On friday the camera van was where it usually is and i glanced down at the speedo to do a quick check and i was doing about 65mph-68mph (70 speed limit).

Got a ticket yesterday for said day at said time indicating i was doing 83mph!!!

Now, do i contest this as I am convinced i wasn't going over the speed limit, let alone 83mph!!! If i contest do i have to go to court? Do they ever make mistakes?

Yeah question it, i think there is some sort of issue with calibration in the technology they use.

If your confident you were not speeding then you have to argue it. If you don't then your basically admitting you were speeding.

Are you definitely sure you weren't speeding? If so contest it, or at least request a photo. In an unlikely case someone could have cloned your plates etc.

Also, the guns do have to be calibrated at certain time intervals.

Best go ask on http://pepipoo.com/

Yes, yes and yes.

If you truly believe you where less than 70mph, then it would be silly just to roll over and take it.

Yeah, I know when i have been speeding because you do that emergency swear followed by a stamp on the brakes and realise you are still doing 75mph, thats how i learnt my lesson last time. But this time i definitly wasn't going faster than an indicated 65-68mph. 83mph – doesn't even compute.

As far as cloning plates, it was the exact time and day that i was passing so i would doubt that.

New wheels/tyres lately?

Ok, so my worry with questioning it is that they make it so hard to contest, i.e. i would need a solicitor etc, that it ends up being more expensive than taking a £60 fine. Plus, if i contest it does that mean my right to have a £60 fine and 3pts is revoked and it could get worse?

Got 4 newish tyres all round. How would that make any difference?

you'd be surprised just how far away they can clock you. Were you doing 70 or less all the way along that road? If they're wrong though, don't just roll over. Were you being overtaken at the time?

wrong size wheels or tyres could cause an over/underread on your speedo, couldn't they? Just a thought

yeah they do

http://autos.yahoo.com/maintain/repairqa/brakes/ques151_0.html

Mate got new alloys and it threw his speedo way out, he got a ticket for doing 38 in a 30 when he tought he was doing 30.

New wheels/tyres lately?

LOL not unless he'd gone from normal to monster truck tyres! A 24% difference in circumference would be required, that'd be like going from a 195 65 15 to a 215 85 17! Normal tyre/wheel combo changes are in the order of +-5% or you risk catching arches etc. You'd have to be a complete moron to go for tyres significantly larger than stock, in which case you deserve to be booked for drastically altering your cars setup without having the faintest clue about the effects.

read the second paragraph it states about the tyre/speedo problems.

Bigger tyres can alter speedo readings but not by that sort of percentage. If you were def under the limit then contest it otherwise it's an admission of guilt.

You never know!

Nice one woody, I was trying to find a pic of something similar myself 🙂

contest it. they have to show you the evidence if you request it.

Are you using the correct spec tyres right profile etc. That can make a bit of difference to the indicated speed vs. actual speed.
i.e My ca has 17" rims, so 1 can get 215 / 45 / 17 or 215 / 40 / 17 tyres. The correct tyres for mine ar the 215 / 45 / 17, the 215 / 40 / 17 would cause the speedo to give incorrect readings.

Ok, i just don't know how you contest it? Its not like i have access to the raw data is it?

If they send me a photo of me at that time then what does that prove?

Its just the principle of the thing. I am the first to hold my hands up if i have been doing something wrong, and the first to tell others to MTFU and stop whinging in the same circumstances.

Yeah, the car is bog standard spec. No modifications, tyre and wheel size standard. Even if say i had put 18" rims on (instead of the 16" it has)that would no way equate for a difference from 68mph to 83mph would it?

Ok, i just don't know how you contest it? Its not like i have access to the raw data is it?

If they send me a photo of me at that time then what does that prove?

I'm not sure with the mobile vans, with gatsos you'd get two photos side by side 1/2 a second apart over the dotted lines (distance&time = speed) but with mobile laser traps I'm not sure how they'd provide you with any evidence, but asking them for it means they have to check and provide the calib data and must double check what is practically an automated process otherwise.

Even if say i had put 18" rims on (instead of the 16" it has)that would no way equate for a difference from 68mph to 83mph would it?

It COULD, but only if you put on entirely the wrong size of tyre. As above, 195 65 15s to 215 85 17s would give you the required discrepancy, but it would look like you bolted rangerover wheels to it.

You can also ask to see the calibration certificate I think.

As I said, go ask on pepipoo.com. They'll give you all the information that you require.

Plus, if i contest it does that mean my right to have a £60 fine and 3pts is revoked and it could get worse?

Go to thew magistrates with a "not guilty", if they find you guilty based upon the evidence then they'll usually give more than 3 points & £60.

Having been in a similar situation to you a couple of years ago, some advice:
1) Keep the letter from plod safe. One technical defence is apparently a "chain of evidence" defence, that the person who sent the Notice of intention to prosecute has to be available in court, and should be the same person operating the camera. (mine got binned by my MiL so solictor & I never got to try this one out).

2) Seek out good motoring legal advice, it'll be worth the money.

3) If you "need" to drive for work, then mention the problem to employer now, would they support you with a reference etc if needed.

Not sure the wheel/tyre thying would hold up, as you have to have an accurate speedo by law, you might dodge the speeding then find the copper follows you out to ticket you for your faulty speedo.

You could test/calibrate your speedo by following a few LGVs on the motorway…

It's disgraceful really, you're guilty until you prove their systems wrong (which in the majority of cases they are not) but the fact that just attempting to argue yuor point effectively increases your penalty is disgraceful. I know why they do it, but in this case you're effectively taking someone who has a genuine greivance and making them think about accepting the guilty plea just to prevent things getting any worse. Thats not the way to run a civilised legal system.

Surely if they were that far out a few other people would be getting tickets that were not speeding? They would then have to question the accuracy of the equipment.

There's any number of forums with experts in this stuff. As previously mentioned, get advice from somewhere like http://pepipoo.com/ or similar.

From what I've read, in a lot of cases simply calling them on procedure is enough to get it thrown out. ACPO guidelines are very strict on how speed cameras should be used and maintained.

As an aside, years ago I was once clocked by a WPC with one of those hairdrier-type speed guns, I was doing about 20 in a 30 (alongside a school), and she pegged me at about 50 and pulled me over. She was hidden on another road around the corner from me, and got line of sight on me by shooting through two sets of iron railings running round both streets.

I contested it at the roadside because it was patently ridiculous, it should have been clear whether I was doing 20 or 50, even to to a sneaky hiding halfwit. She argued that she could tell I was speeding because the engine was revving high, I explained the benefits of using lower gears to climb steep hills and asked her if the speed gun was supposed to work through railings, she said she didn't know, at which point I think we both knew she was on a hiding to nothing and she sent me on my way. If I'd just gone "oh, alright then" I'd have been down 40 quid and up three points.

Yeah, coffeeking, thats my point really.

To be honest, £60 and 3pts isn't going to hurt me (my previous 3pts have now been taken off my license) so its not the end of the world. Its just the principle of the thing. I know i wasn't speeding, but contesting it is going to be a whole load of hassle AND potentially a lot more money.

They may have just not locked onto your car properly, though how you would prove that I dont know!

If you ask on the right type of forum, you may find out it's not as much hassle as you seem to be trying to convince yourself it is at present 🙂

dooosuk – Member
If you ask on the right type of forum, you may find out it's not as much hassle as you seem to be trying to convince yourself it is at present

For the third time. 😉

The range is quite a long way, if that could explain it?

To contest it, there should be a box to tick on the back of the ticket to request a court hearing. It's not obligatory to have a solicitor if you don't want one.

Up here, the camera van camera is calibrated at twice each day, at the start and end of the day. Don't know about elsewhere, but would expect it to be the same.

The photo would show the vehicle and the detected speed. A friend of mine got a ticket through the post from somewhere he'd never been so queried it. They had made a mistake in reading the reg in the photo, and no more came of it. It might be worth ringing them asking them to double check, you may speak to a helpful person! Although if the time and location are where you were then this might be unlikely?

If you are sure you weren't speeding then make the court prove you were.

As above, ask when the device was last calibrated.

Have you checked your car speedo against a satnav/camera detector?

The only other thing I can think of is you were going faster but lifted off thinking you were far enough away. These things can see for miles now.

Dispute it. IF it is out how many others have been wrongly penalised. Others will also be disputing and there should be a pattern.

Good luck and perceivere 🙂

As far as cloning plates, it was the exact time and day that i was passing so i would doubt that.

Interestingly enough, there was a case about 2 years ago near where I lived then where two cars, identical make, model and colour, crashed into each other. On arrival at the scene the police spotted that they both had identical registrations too. Now there's a cloning gone wrong and shows they can be in the same place at the same time!

>you're guilty until you prove their systems wrong

Judging by a mate/colleague's experience, that may be difficult to do. He was convinced he wasn't speeding (had for some reason just checked his speedo). Got the photos, judging from the measurement points (ie on different parts of the car) that appeared to confirm an error about equal to the speed he'd been clocked at. IIRC, there appeared to be several hurdles after that:
a) although there are guidelines, not using the equipment according to the guidelines isn't admissable in court (one of the them is using the equipment on a slope, which was as similar issue in his case I think – you need the laser to hit consistent points on the car otherwise the measurement's wrong).
b) despite it being simple schoolboy physics, you need an expert witness to submit that sort of stuff in evidence (since the courts only capable of legal argument)
c) the expert witness he got hold of (was assigned? – I don't know) wouldn't provide a report/statement because without the manual for the detector (which he couldn't obtain from the police or otherwise) he wouldn't commit to anything. Which to me, as an engineer, sounds like a complete crock – but I suppose courts are only capable of dealing with a yes/no, not a qualified answer with an error estimate or probability…

At least a few times he turned up to court to find out the CPS were applying to delay it further 'cos they weren't ready. I think it eventually cost him 2 or 3k over and above the cost of the fine.

That's not to say you shouldn't contest it, but if you pursue it very far, you might wind up chucking a lot of money away 🙁

Interestingly enough, there was a case about 2 years ago near where I lived then where two cars, identical make, model and colour, crashed into each other. On arrival at the scene the police spotted that they both had identical registrations too. Now there's a cloning gone wrong and shows they can be in the same place at the same time!

Fack. I bet as one was cloned its fair to say its insurance was invalid and such the innocent driver was stung again?!

I'm not sure how it ended hora, it was just reported in the local paper, but I suspect one half was fine but the driver of the cloned car (possibly unaware of the cloning, though I can't see how as you normally get told if the car is already insured when you ring up to insure it) may have been done over.

despite it being simple schoolboy physics, you need an expert witness to submit that sort of stuff in evidence (since the courts only capable of legal argument)

Not sure how that's true TBH, if you can prove the calculations of schoolboy physics they cannot argue you're not able to present that as evidence. And even so, you could call in an engineer friend as a witness to the calculations.

LHS post in here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=10&mid=70159

It has a few road traffic Police.

in this case you're effectively taking someone who has a genuine greivance and making them think about accepting the guilty plea just to prevent things getting any worse. Thats not the way to run a civilised legal system

It's how most of the criminal law system is run.

if you can prove the calculations of schoolboy physics they cannot argue you're not able to present that as evidence. And even so, you could call in an engineer friend as a witness to the calculations.

Depends whether it's simple enough for the court to take judicial notice of it. An engineer friend would be an expert witness.