Sorry, children's helmet rant

Can’t be arsed to read the whole thread.
Ultimately it is personal choice with what you want to do for your kids.
Our choice is that our son wears his on his balance bike and has done for about 6 months or so.
Not necessarily because he needs it right now, more that it is now a habit and will continue when he gets a proper bike (he is only just over 2).
It’s funny now as he goes to collect his bike and brings his hat too, it’s a properly fitting kids helmet too

Can’t be arsed to read the whole thread.
Ultimately it is personal choice with what you want to do for your kids.
Our choice is that our son wears his on his balance bike and has done for about 6 months or so.
Not necessarily because he needs it right now, more that it is now a habit and will continue when he gets a proper bike (he is only just over 2).
It’s funny now as he goes to collect his bike and brings his hat too, it’s a properly fitting kids helmet too

i agree….all 3 of my kids wear one otherwise they don’t ride their bikes.
youngest is 3…he likes it especially when he see his older siblings wearing theirs. my 5 year old daughter doesn’t like wearing hers but that’s because she ties her hair up high so the helmet doesn’t go on properly so she has to re-tie her hair so the helmet fits. eldest is 10 and has been using a helmet since he was 3…its second nature to him now to wear a helmet.
i agree that its difficult sometimes to find a helmet that fits properly but once you find one its worth it.
oldest son has a bell stoker and is now the proud owner of a giro cipher. daughter has a met lid and youngest has a bell lid.

The best summary of the evidence I have seen

You mean the article that most closely agrees with the point of view you like 🙂

All it says is that it’s complicated to assess the effects of helmet wearing and legislation.

I’m still thinking in more detail though – about the interaction between tarmac and head. I’d certainly rather there was something soft in between the two.

Exactly what pertinent points did he miss?

It’s always good to have a “throw yourself at the floor, see if a helmet helps” post though.

Are there any records of the number of permanent brain injuries kids received whilst cycling before helmets became the norm? From my experience they don’t seem to do much more than protect from superficial and temporary brain injuries. Much more likely to tell my grandkids* to wear gloves than helmets.

* I don’t have any yet but have raised three boys to adulthood without too many hospital visits

aracer – Member

It’s always good to have a “throw yourself at the floor, see if a helmet helps” post though.

If you were to land on the floor, would you prefer to have some form of protection? Even if it may strangle you on the internet, though not in real life.

If you were to risk being stabbed would you fancy a stab resistant vest, despite it being hot and sweaty?

If you were to be savaged by a beaver or somesuch, would you like beaver proof galoshers, despite someone on the internet telling you they may burst into flames?

How about if, whilst wrestling a rabid haddock, someone was to pass you a sharpened golf club. Handy, I’m sure you’ll agree…

Unlikely as these scenarios may sound, you just never know, and it pays to be prepared.

strangulation risk? Well freak accidents can always happen and if someone has actually ever been strangled by a cycle helmet chin strap then it is most likely becasuse it was a poor fit or some other outside influencing factor rather than a fundamental issue with the helmet design. A work colleague of mine was killed in a motorbike accident and his head was torn from his shoulders by his helmet chin strap but you’d be an utter idiot and imbecile of the highest order to suggest motorbike helmets should be banned as why’re more dangerous than not wearing them.

Crashes are complicated. Many things can happen during a crash. They are impossible to model accurately, which is why we still have real life crash tests, and you get a different outcome with every test no matter how hard you try to set it up exactly the same. You have to consider ON BALANCE what is the safest option, to wear a helmet or not to wear one. I wouldn’t know where to dig them up but I’d be will to bet the actual evidence would suggest wearing a helmet is your best bet.

From my experience they don’t seem to do much more than protect from superficial and temporary brain injuries.

What experience is that?

Are there any records of the number of permanent brain injuries kids received whilst cycling before helmets became the norm?

Dunno. But it wasn’t all roses back then. I know someone whose best mate was killed by a car whilst riding over to his house. Head injury might’ve been a part of it, I dunno. But shit did happen ‘back in the old days’ you just didn’t care about it as much.

But shit did happen ‘back in the old days’ you just didn’t care about it as much.

its not just that though is it? there was no internet, social media or satellite/cable tv back then…so if it wasnt on one of the 4 channels, local radio or newspaper…you never heard about it and it never happened or existed.
also i think there is a big difference in the bikes that get ridden now and those that were ridden then.
when i was 10 i had a very nice bmx but the brakes weren’t all that due to the mag wheels and i thought that simply popping off a tall kerb was a cool stunt…my 10 year old has hardtail with a 170mm travel fork, zee stoppers and 10sp gearing…the bike gives him the confidence to ride harder and faster than i would ever dream of when i was his age on my bmx…i never wore a helmet but i survived but my son has a bike that can help push his riding skills even further so he should wear a helmet.

What experience is that?

Without going into boring detail 45 years plus of cycling and 30 odd years of motorcycling, first hand knowledge of a few accidents some resulting in fatalities some in short term knock outs, some motorcycling, some cycling, some with some without helmet protection. Personally I think helmet wearing on the balance is probably a good idea, but just don’t think the risks of not wearing them are all that great and don’t believe that the benefit of wearing them are all that great either vis a vis the “helmet saved my life” anecdotes. Definitely think that enforced wearing of helmets either by disapproval of others or otherwise is a bad thing & as for risk compensation…. I once rode The Gap sans helmet & the decent was definitely not as much fun that time 😉

So, are you saying that if someone had a helmet on and still sustained an injury then the helmet didn’t help?

So, are you saying that if someone had a helmet on and still sustained an injury then the helmet didn’t help?

No, I am saying I don’t know but I am not hugely convinced that bike helmets actually prevent permanent brain injury – I’ve been knocked out after being knocked off by a car. I dare say I might not have been had I been wearing a helmet but I am saying that had I been wearing a helmet it would have been damaged but it wouldn’t have “saved my life”

Dickyboy – Member
No, I am saying I don’t know but I am not hugely convinced that bike helmets actually prevent permanent brain injury – I’ve been knocked out after being knocked off by a car. I dare say I might not have been had I been wearing a helmet but I am saying that had I been wearing a helmet it would have been damaged but it wouldn’t have “saved my life”

It can’t have saved your life if you didn’t die in the non-helmet scenario. If you’d have died then a helmet could have potentially saved your life. Evidently it could have saved you some long term brain injury.

Okay on another tack – what are the head injury sats for the tour de France pre and post helmet compulsion – from an accident/injury perspective all other variables must be fairly consistent* and therefore comparable non?

* I suppose one that isn’t is quality of medical care over time , bugger was hoping for a reasonable comparison

It can’t have saved your life if you didn’t die in the non-helmet scenario. If you’d have died then a helmet could have potentially saved your life. Evidently it could have saved you some long term brain injury.

My skill at conveying a message have clearly been affected by the brain injury I received back in 1979

I dare say I might not have been had I been wearing a helmet but I am saying that had I been wearing a helmet it would have been damaged but it wouldn’t have “saved my life”

Not sure you really understand how this works.

Your brain can withstand up to a certain G force as it decelerates or accelerates by being hit by something, without being damaged. A helmet crumples and helps slow your brain’s deceleration and reduces the G force.

So if you are wearing one, the consequences of an impact are less severe. An impact big enough to cause permanent damage to a naked head might be reduced to temporary damage with one. An impact that might have caused temporary damage to a naked head might be reduced to a sore head with a helmet.

So they don’t prevent injuries necessarily, but they reduce the severity of the consequences.

what are the head injury sats for the tour de France pre and post helmet compulsion

That’s a much better question and one I would be interested to find the answer to. Seems like most crashers, of whom there are plenty, seem to hit their bodies and hips. I wonder how many helmets get dinged? We see plenty of pics of cut up lycra but not dinged helmets.

Dan Martin’s after the crash with Geraint Thomas and Riche Porte:

He finished the stage and only lost just over a minute.

The fundamental point here, surely, is that as adults we can choose whether or not to wear a helmet, but children do not have that level of responsibility, so it is our job, as parents, guardians, coaches, to instruct them, in the safest way possible.

Different approach to the OP here – helmet wearing has been the default for my kids until I felt they were experienced enough to be able to assess the risk for themselves for whatever riding they are going out to do. One’s nearly 13 and sometimes doesn’t wear a helmet when pootling about, the other is 7 will very rarely ride without one – he’s the only one that’s smashed a helmet though when he was trying little wheelies and somehow manage to go over the bars and flip round, whacking the back of his head onto the tennis court we were playing on. But they tend to know what sort of a mood they’re in – riding round the village can involve just that… or dropping 1.5 foot kurbs, jumps, etc, etc

Neither they nor me were exposed to any peer pressure in this though (ignoring their grandparents that is). They always wanted to wear a helmet to ride as that’s what I did – that was part of going for a ride. I had to insist they took their helmet off when riding in the trailer (they both wanted to) so they were actually comfortable!

Getting them to a point where they can make a fairly sophisticated risk calculation is difficult though, and I’m certainly not kidding myself that they always get it right and I do sometimes simply say “Why don’t you put a helmet on?”. The stress has always been on them understanding the risks and minimising those, rather than mitigating some potential effects through wearing a helmet.

My boys wear them, always have done, but they are bloody daft.

Do rugby forums have gumshield threads?

More likely to have headgear threads I’d thought. Gumshields are mandatory.
Lots of the U10 team I coach wear headgear. I don’t like it to be honest as I think it gives a false sense of security when tackling. That being said my son now wears one due to my wife insisting and me wanting a quiet life.

I felt they were experienced enough to be able to assess the risk for themselves for whatever riding they are going out to do.

What about when something happens that they weren’t planning to do?

What about when something happens that they weren’t planning to do?

Yup – that’s the difficult part. Either they change their mind, or they get sucked into something, or it’s something out of their control. We are working from the usual default of wearing a helmet though, so it’s the not wearing a helmet that is the conscious decision and needs assessment. So if they go out without a helmet then they’ve made a conscious decision to ride in a certain way, in certain places. I’m happy (from what I’ve seen, not hypothetically happy) that they mostly get it right.

My kids (8 and 10 – need to think up some better names for them at some point) have always worn helmets and understand that it’s part and parcel of cycling, whatever discipline you do. I like the fact that you’ve thought it through and you’re quite correct to have risk assessed it, but (IMHO) the reality is that the earlier you get them wearing them, the less complaints you’ll get on that day when you insist on them wearing it (for a race, a club event or at an MTB trail centre). For me, there was never any option.

As for strangulation, I think that’s a very, very outside risk. There have been statements made about kids playing in their helmets when away from the bikes and I think these have merit (and I now try to remember to get them to remove them when playing) but these seem small fry in my mind compared to the risk of getting their heads battered in a crash.

In the last month, my 8yo son has had a reasonably big “off” while road coaching. Fortunately, he only scraped his head, but he was fortunate and it could have been much worse. Last weekend, he went down hard in a CX event and, even though he landed on grass, he hit his helmet hard enough to leave a good mark on his head and to knock his senses for 60s or so. Fortunately, there was no serious harm and he was able to keep racing, but I was extremely glad that he had his helmet on in both situations.

I’ve lost count of the number of bashes he’s had on his MTB. Now that I think about it, he’s probably due a new helmet 🙂

I’m not suggesting that OP would have allowed his kids to be without a helmet in any of these situations (in fact, in a club or race environment, they would have been mandatory and on the trail you’d be daft not to wear one), but my attitude is that “always wear a helmet” is much easier to teach kids than having to argue with them every time about whether a given ride is risky enough to need one.

Each to their own, of course, but with my cycle coach hat on, I see enough crashes that it’s helmets all the way.

You make a very good point. I always wear my stab vest, beaver proof galoshes and carry a sharpened golf club, just in case. Clearly such measures work as I have yet to be stabbed, attacked by a beaver or by a rabid haddock.

*sniggers*

Clearly such measures work as I have yet to be stabbed, attacked by a beaver or by a rabid haddock.

Conclusive, I’m sure you’ll all agree.

Such is the speed and ferocity of the beaver, seldom is the victim afforded time to apply the correct PPE. Should a beaver begin it’s attack then you must respond hard and fast, striking repeatedly at the sternum with any heavy object to hand. Such as a ladle.