Sorry, children's helmet rant

The anecdote does not come with any warranty or backup.

That’s most unreasonable – I want a refund as it’s not fit for purpose.

Not going to validate your opinion OP. Seems like you fishing for STW to back you up.

Sample size not big enough for you to draw conclusions.

Amateur napkin physics and bio mechanics are not a legit method for basing assumptions about method and extent of injury.

Children have been strangled by drawstrings on hoods – have you removed all the drawstrings from their clothes?

You’ve failed to account for one of the largest factors in accidents – other people (especially dribbling shit weasels in cars).

I’m glad the helmet I cracked in half was on my head and it wasn’t my skull that hit a rock. That was falling off forwards and landing on my arms first just to balance your the anecdotal evidence.

😆

🙄

Are we laughing about how my point about a sample size of 1 not being big enough to draw an accurate conclusion is proven by illustrating that my sample size of 1 has a totally different outcome.

Hence ‘balance your anecdotal evidence?’ (yes I’m aware I left an extra word).

Or are you just trying to be edgy and cool whilst demonstrating poor reading comprehension?

When my son was six he turned sharply to avoid a dead squirrel, twisted bars, fell sideways an bounced his head off a kerb. His Bell Sidetrack helmet cracked. His skull did not crack. He walked away.

Anyone who has broken a helmet knows how much impact is needed to do so. I would rather that impact went into a helmet than a skull.

My kids have always had, and will always have, a no helmet – no ride rule. I do not consider myself expert enough to come to any other conclusion than helmets are a good thing.

When my daughter was just learning to ride, she went down the hill into the park and forgot how to use her brakes. She had a high speed head first dive into a rockery. Her helmet broke, her head didn’t. My kids will never ride without them.

Same park, different day, son still had his bike helmet on when he fell backwards off the top of the slide (the big one, that he shouldn’t have been on). Helmet broke, kid didn’t.

I hate that park.

Almost always wear one but it depends where we are
There are a couple of traffic free flat routes we do without helmets. Its always great to get advice from folk out on their BSO squeaking along explain why its madness to not wear a helmet. THat said I reckon 99% of mine and their riding involves a helmet

The only thing i find strange is when parents make their kids wear a helmet and then dont themselves.

Same park, different day, son still had his bike helmet on when he fell backwards off the top of the slide (the big one, that he shouldn’t have been on). Helmet broke, kid didn’t.

Thanks for that anecdote. I’m definitely having a go at anybody who lets their child use a slide without a helmet now.

you keep missing out the winks

I can deal with the looks from other parents proudly letting junior hop on and off the kerb ……. on their piece of shit bike

and you complain about people judging you.

you keep missing out the winks

I like to keep you guessing ( 😉 ?)

Anecdotes you want? Well… racing is dangerous. You must wear a helmet and I’ve written off two nice Giro helmets whilst racing, both with a loss of consciousness.

But the most recent incident was much more serious. My new Giro Synth. Signing on at the Welsh Nationals, I banged my head on the spar of a very low hanging gazebo! Luckily my helmet took the brunt (enough to dent it 🙁 ). Always wear a helmet when signing on.

As for broken helmets – they’ve really done their job when they show crush damage, not cracks. As mine did when i planted it onto the B pillar of a Mercedes at 20 mph.

I’ve only read the OP, but I think he is wrong.

I respect his right to be wrong though, even if I am saddened by his decision not to mitigate against unnecessary risk for his kid based on his poor risk model using flawed assumptions and apperent lack of objectivity.

Hence all the safety gear people wear for racing

– on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.

Nope. I think that is a fib. Mrs INVG is a brain surgeon & says that she sees very few cyclist head injuries. By & large it is other parts of the body that get taken out. Those that are tend to be off road incidents.

She still prefers me to wear a helmet.

I’ve commented on these in the playground…

The ‘punk spine’ is hard rubber – really not convinced they are a good idea.

I can deal with the looks from other parents proudly letting junior hop on and off the kerb ……. on their piece of shit bike

and you complain about people judging you.[/quote]

I feel entirely comfortable judging people who send their kids out with brakes that don’t work and with tyres that are down to the canvas. They don’t have to worry about any of that nonsense because they’ve got helmets!

Somehow I doubt these parents took the time to read peer reviewed studies on riding without brakes before deciding that brakes might not be the magical talismans of safety everyone thinks they are.

dirksdiggler
the argument against helmets is moot with a well fitting model.
The argument against poorly fitting helmets is equally valid.

I wouldn’t say moot – but at least a properly fitting helmet might actually do something – the weight and size still count against them.

To the Op – you are thinking about it and making rational risk assessments – some might not agree with you but its a reasonably rational decision based on evidence.

Anyone with kids who questions you? I suggest you show them the multiple ways their totheir precious bairns helmets don’t fit and increase risk- educate them don’t argue.

Personally ( I don’t have kids) if it were me I’d be looking very hard for helmets in other sports as well as cycling? Someone must make something surely? Most kids helmets are woeful

imnotverygood – Member

– on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.

Nope. I think that is a fib. Mrs INVG is a brain surgeon & says that she sees very few cyclist head injuries. By & large it is other parts of the body that get taken out. Those that are tend to be off road incidents.

Mrs INVG is right. You do see life changing cycle head injuries ( I have seen a few) – but they are rare. Drinking injuries are far more common. I have seen one chap for whom I believe his helmet caused his injury. No way to know but it has all the attributes

Tricky situation for the OP. I feel a hypocrit as I don’t wear a helmet, but my grandson does when we go for a ride together. I guess I think he’s more likely to fall off than I am. Ignore the critics, or just tell them ti piss off.

Wear the helmet, or not, but a smack on the head is nicer when there’s an inch of polystyrene between you and the floor. Rotational forces, strangling and whatnot are all a load of bollocks when the ground is rushing towards you.

Toys r us and babies r us do a range of tiny helmets that fit properly.

molgrips – So can I see your risk assessment poly?

well contrary to what many people think you don’t need to write a risk assessment down, so it will be a bit tricky, you’d need to get inside my head which is obviously a dangerous place!

However it goes roughly like this:
– if I am actually mountain biking I do occasionally crash/fall off so risk hitting me head. Still even in quite a lot of crashes I’ve only damaged one helmet (and I doubt it saved my life but did avoid some pain). I don’t jump – Im a mincer. I wear a helmet for this sort of riding.
– if I am riding the road bike, I’ve never had a crash, but the tire to road area ratio isn’t high and speeds are higher so there is some risk of wiping out, and the impact being more dramatic. There is also a risk of vehicle collision but a helmet isn’t going to make a big difference in a lot of those cases. I still wear a helmet for this sort of riding.
– if I am pootling to the shops or station, I may not bother with the helmet. I’ve never crashed on those short trips. I ride grippy tires on routes I know, at moderate speeds. I do believe when interacting with traffic they give me more room w/out the helmet. If I have to carry a helmet at the other end, or even the extra step of getting it out the cupboard I might not bother – I’ll jump in the car, long term that is not going to be as good for my health.
– in some incidents a helmet will definitely make a difference to the outcome.
– in some incidents a helmet will make absolutely no difference to the outcome.
– helmets are only tested to a relatively low speed/energy collision.
– the fact I know I will take more risks with a helmet ON make me more likely to get other injuries.

Talking to the Mrs about this – on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.

The numbers are almost certainly wrong. A friend works in A&E and claimed it was 50% – but there was definitely confirmation bias involved in that (he ignored the drunks and assaults)! He also reckoned 75% WERE wearing helmets and still got hurt. Many more cyclists appear with cuts/grazes, shoulder injuries and long bone fractures than head injuries. We don’t advocate armour for the road though do we?

I strongly suspect all the anti-helmeters are retrospectively rationalising their dislike of helmet wearing.

I’m not sure what you define as an “anti-helmeter”. If you are including people who sometimes don’t wear helmets rather than those who never wear them – then I think you are applying your own bias to rationalise an “I never get on a bike without some polystyrene” decision. If you go to Scandinavia you will see something like 1:1000 helmets for exactly that sort of pootling. I don’t think they have disproportionately higher head injury rates do they?

Glad I had my full face on during the Naughty Northumbrian the other day 🙂

Understand what you are saying with a cheap Lidl/Halfords helmet that are thick / offer no back / side protection etc.

Can you not mitigate all your worries, while gaining all the benefits of wearing a helmet, just by buying a decent one that fits well, with a good strap system e.g. Bell Sidetrack or similar?

silly silly – cradle systems for helmet fixation reduce their effectiveness greatly – there needs to be no gap between the polystyrene ad the skull for them to work properly ( TRL research) and all helmets increase the weight and size of the head

Thread going in a very predictable direction…

Rotational forces, strangling and whatnot are all a load of bollocks

It’s great to finally have a definitive answer to these questions. I hope everyone will take note and not waste any more time on so-called “research” and stuff.

I agree with you. I wouldn’t force religion on my kids either.

Talking to the Mrs about this – on the local facebook page for our area there is a nurse who works in the neurology dept. She estimates that 90% of the head injuries she sees are people falling off (or being knocked off) bikes, many with life-altering consequences.

Member of my family is a psychologist, has a close friend who works with brain-damaged people in recovery. They say a disproportionate number of patients are male and under 40, motorbikes, cars and street fights are the most common causes. Bikes weren’t mentioned, don’t doubt there’s a few in there though – must be via RTAs etc.

90% sounds like BS. Both examples are just annecdotal evidence though.

(uh oh.. my 1st post on a helmet thread!)

Member of my family is a psychologist, has a close friend who works with brain-damaged people in recovery. They say a disproportionate number of patients are male and under 40, motorbikes, cars and street fights are the most common causes. Bikes weren’t mentioned, don’t doubt there’s a few in there though – must be via RTAs etc.

90% sounds like BS. Both examples are just annecdotal evidence though.

I’d say thats the difference between general admissions to a+e and serious head injuries. I’d suggest the 90% stat is everything from a minor bump to concussion whereas the person working in recovery is only seeing the most serious few percent.

We have a no helmet no ride rule in his household, I had a pedestrian incident while commuting helmetless a few years back and I’ll not even year a bike up and down the street now, much in the same way I’ll not get in a car without a seat belt. It’s a precaution that might never been needed and might not work in every situation but I’d rather have it than not.

^ he did say ‘many with life-altering consequences’ though, suggesting many are needing care and rehab afterwards so the range includes the most serious head injuries.
Even if not actually that many at that severity, 90% of head injuries seen are related to / caused by bikes? I don’t have numbers to suggest I know better but if that were generally true we’d know about it.

Really not sure what the fuss is, kids put helmets on and ride bikes – why the need to turn it into some sort of crusade

Here are some facts on cycling injuries for 2015. Sadly wording is poor. I assume it means % of cyclists admitted to A&E. Not 80% of all cyclists in rural areas have a head injury

“Head injuries, ranging from fatal skull fractures and brain damage to minor concussion and cuts, are very
common injuries to cyclists. Hospital data shows that over 40% of cyclists, and 45% of child cyclists, suffer head
injuries. A study of 116 fatal cyclist accidents in London and rural areas found over 70% of the cyclist fatalities
in London had moderate or serious head injuries in London, and over 80% of those killed in collisions on rural
roads.”

Source

https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/cyclists/cycling-accidents-factsheet.pdf

Careful ampthill.

Bringing in empirical evidence could get you flamed! Ha! Ha!

Having been lucky enough to spend some time with Swedish safety experts, POC, and having been able to question them in detail about the research that underpins their products and the multi plane testing they do such as for their new SPIN pads, I came away convinced by both their safety first ethos and more importantly, the evidence based approach they adopt working with some of Sweden’s leading neuroscientists. Unlike Trump the chump, I would rather put my faith in the science than gut feel, instinct and preconceived notions of what feels right.

Wear a helmet. Don’t wear a helmet. That is user choice but don’t expect everyone to support your decision or agree you are right.

Tjagain – Interesting point – here is a link to some of the research re rotational force if anyone is interested: http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html

Looks like Kali helmets are offering something in line with this to mimic the scalp: https://bike.kaliprotectives.com/technology#ldl-low-density-layer

No – as jameso points out (I was politer before) 90% is just BS. There’s no way 90% of any type of head injury can be cyclists. Not given that the majority of people killed due to head injuries in road accidents aren’t cyclists.

Also no break down on what proportion of that 40% is minor concussion and cuts – I suspect the data isn’t available. I note that a similar % suffer arm injuries. Their definition of head injury includes things that I do to myself numerous times when not cycling and to a level which certainly doesn’t require a trip to hospital.

Poor fit & loose chin straps are a serious issue. I fractured my larynx due to a loose chin strap. Had to have a tracheotomy which ain’t nice. I particularly remember getting the suction pipe regularly to take any fluid out of my lungs. Take deep breath, nurse sticks the pipe in and I feel like I’m suffocating not pleasant.

Anyway my take on it is fit is mega important, nice secure chin strap and check it won’t rotate backwards too easily. It’s not an excuse not to wear a lid though I’d rather be partially strangled and fracture my larynx than have a fractured skull.

It’s not a choice between no helmet vs. a badly fitted helmet. We can make the decision to find a well functioning and well fitting helmet that minimises the downside whilst providing some protection.

My son (5) has had a few tumbles on quite mundane bike paths where, for example, his front wheel slipped out on some loose gravel. He slightly cracked his helmet in the fall but was otherwise ok. Would have been a nasty bump to the head if he’d not been wearing one.

Where I couldn’t agree more is that blind faith in helmets is dumb – a sense of false confidence from just putting on a helmet, ignoring that it’s inappropriate, too large or with loose straps is probably far more dangerous than a conscious decision to not wear one in certain scenarios. Unfortunately it’s far too common to see children with helmets that will probably do more harm than good in an accident.

The best summary of the evidence I have seen

http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref

Follow on discussion on the BMJ site is well worth reading as well

thecaptain – Member
It’s great to finally have a definitive answer to these questions. I hope everyone will take note and not waste any more time on so-called “research” and stuff.

Your selective quoting marks you as an empirical throbber.

Go away and throw yourself at the floor several times, maybe add a car to the mix. Then return and feedback on how many times your head rotated and how many times it just slammed into the floor really **** hard. You can do it with a helmet or not, but I know which I’d choose.