"Some very impressive engineering to get the cassette down to £115."

Shan’t.
😀

Seriously, you’re obviously not bothering to read replies properly and you seem a bit angry, so repeating myself is pointless.

aracer – Member

I’m still on a 9 speed triple and have never tried 11 speed

3 x 8 here, you looser!

Nope I’ve read all of them I think, including your back in the good old days when bikes cost thrupence and it was sunny all the time. Not angry just pointing out that you can currently get some amazing value components that seem to be exactly what you want but you are fixated on a groupset you will never buy and that you think it’s a cynical ploy to stop you riding bikes 😉

Compared to 10 years ago cheap kit is cheaper & better. There is also a choice for lots of other people, it there was no innovation at the XTR/XX level then SLX clutch mechs wouldn’t exist. SRAM doing XX1 left others with cheap superstar NW chain rings so whats not to like.

Have just put a new 2×10 setup on the HT, Shimano naturally.
It was £145 new from Ribble, Deore everything and 26/38 cranks with an 11-36 cassette….a ratio for every situation, I’m awash with gears.
When decent components are this cheap it’ll be a long time before I pay £100+ for a solitary cassette….and I scoff at the £250 SRAM cassette, I could’ve bought a new SLX groupset for that money!

I appreciate what SRAM are trying to do with this, but I really don’t like SRAM transmission (or brakes). It would put me off a bike if it had SRAM tranny and stoppers.

I’m all for tech advancements in cycling but don’t have the budget to be a early adopter.
The thing with the latest SRAM cassette is that its supposed to be a budget offering but it is still quite premium priced.

In simple terms you have 11x stamped steel rings held together with basic steel pins no exotic materials or construction going on, when for roughly £30 more you could have a XTR 11speed cassette made from Titanium, steel and carbonfibre, lighter weight and most likely will fit your existing wheels with no extra mods.
Only downside is slightly less overall range.

I have got both SRAM and Shimano drivetrains on both my bikes and like both equally so no fanboism going on.

I bought my first full sus in 04,as I recall at that point spec and giant were knocking out a Base spec full sus for 1k to 1500.

I bought a Giant Trance 4 in 2007 for £900 which was full RRP. The same bike today is £1300

Well inflation alone takes you up to £1115 for that price in todays money
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/flash/default.aspx
Is the modern model better specced? Lighter, stronger, more travel that the 8 year old version?

I run a 13-40 XT (expander with 11t removed) – never use the 11t so can’t imagine using a 10t. I’ll wait for the 11 speed shimano to trickle down to XT before I think about buying.

I run a 13-40 XT (expander with 11t removed) – never use the 11t so can’t imagine using a 10t. I’ll wait for the 11 speed shimano to trickle down to XT before I think about buying.

You realise you’ve created a cassette with less range than the 11-36 you had before?

I run a 13-40 XT (expander with 11t removed) – never use the 11t so can’t imagine using a 10t. I’ll wait for the 11 speed shimano to trickle down to XT before I think about buying.

Do you have a crankset with an unreplaceable front chainring? If not, why wouldn’t you just downsize that? The point of a 10t cog is the same as with a 40t, to increase the range. The actual gearing is as always determined by the front ring.

In simple terms you have 11x stamped steel rings held together with basic steel pins no exotic materials or construction going on, when for roughly £30 more you could have a XTR 11speed cassette made from Titanium, steel and carbonfibre, lighter weight and most likely will fit your existing wheels with no extra mods.

Turn that around. XTR retails for £190 (we don’t know what price GX will actually be available for, so no point looking at cheapest XTR prices), so it’s 65% more expensive than GX whilst weighing only 20% less. XTR has a far narrower range, and uses ti sprockets, which are softer and will wear quicker.

If you go to X1, it weighs less than XTR, whilst still being more durable, and only slightly more expensive.

You realise you’ve created a cassette with less range than the 11-36 you had before

you realise if you read the post correctly you’d see I wasn’t using the whole range I had so loosing the 11t did no harm what so ever.

The point of a 10t cog is the same as with a 40t, to increase the range. The actual gearing is as always determined by the front ring

30t front with the 13-40 is pretty perfect for what I ride. if I went up to a 32t I’d loose the 30-40 ratio and use the harder gears even less. my current set up is good for the terrain I cycle on and a lot cheaper to replace items than any current 11sp set up.

Poah

a 26t granny ring with a 11-34 cassette would have given you EXACTLY the same range as your 30T 13-40 set up but lots lighter a quarter of the price and far less faff/waste.

I’d buy a 9spd clutch rear mech.

And also a 10spd 11-40t cassette.

Not for the same bike though!

They’d sell loads of both… but would then sell less of all the other stuff…
You can run Shimano clutch mechs as 9 speed if you use SRAM shifters, in fact I run 1×8 with a Zee mech and SRAM shifter and it works great. 🙂

Hypnotoad, What 8 speed shifter do you use?

30t front with the 13-40 is pretty perfect for what I ride. if I went up to a 32t I’d loose the 30-40 ratio and use the harder gears even less. my current set up is good for the terrain I cycle on and a lot cheaper to replace items than any current 11sp set up.

I didn’t say that you should size up your chainring, I was explaining that the purpose of a 10t cog is to increase the overall range that any given chainring gives you, just as it is with 40t or 42t cogs.

By all means continue using the setup if you like it, I was just pointing out that saying that you “can’t imagine using a 10t” doesn’t make much sense as it doesn’t say anything about the actual gearing.

Sram X5 8 speed trigger shifter, it’s pretty old and I don’t think you can get them new anymore, but x5 9speed shifters will work also, along with a 9sp cassette.

EDIT: Mine looks like this, but 8 speed:

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/sram-x5-9-speed-trigger-shifters

njee20 – Member
An Alfine 8 which weighs loads, and is less efficient than a chain drive system, whilst having a narrower range and bigger jumps than the SRAM cassette folk are frothing about…? Where do I sign up!?

I can see why it wouldn’t appeal, but it’s a way nicer piece of engineering than any derailleur, and lasts much longer. 🙂

As for efficiency, I can’t imagine mud encrusted derailleurs are particularly efficient, and what’s the point in a gear system you can’t drag through the clag.

I don’t get why people need even closer ratios (unless they’re racing). Surely this means you’re operating your shifters almost all the time on varied terrain?.

Meh, the jumps on the SRAM cassettes are pretty big, the must be huge on Alfine. I agree that close ratio blocks aren’t much use, but neither is huge jumps.

Mud encrusted mechs are probably about as efficient as a hub gear, all else being equal, which it isn’t, so it’s a moot point. How many rides are truly that filthy too?

I wonder how many 1x enthusiasts were sat around in the pub post ride a couple years ago slagging off front mechs and multiple chainrings. Dunno maybe they were, but sometimes it sounds suspiciously like reverse reasoning for a suddenly fashionable item.
I’ve tried 1×10 on my commuter (tried 1×8 and 1×9 in the past on commuters too) and I like it, best thing for me is going from top to bottom gear in <2secs, good for riding trails you don’t know and suddenly seeing a wall of uphill trail appear in front of you. Rest of the positives are OK, still not likely to go 1x on the bikes that climb the biggest/steepest hills tho as I’d have to spaff on a sram xd cassette for my full current range and that’s not happening. 1 shifter mech and cassette may cost similar to a full 2x/3x setup but shifters pretty much never need replacing and rings last longer than cassettes, spending so much on a (very) consumable part seems daft.

Yeah stuff works better nowadays but I don’t reckon it lasts aslong tho, I’ve near enough worn out a shadow rear mech in under 12months and plenty of accounts on here suggest clutch versions are even worse, especially for jockey wheels. See also bottom swing front mechs, external BBs, etc.

Ditching the front mech allowing for better frame design is interesting, are many people actually doing it*? Or are bike co’s keeping their options open for the unfit/uncool/boring old fuddy duddy multi-ring users?

Raphaisation

this certainly sounds accurate to me, top end stuff seems silly money and there’s loads more uber spendy pimpery available than ever before, but dunno how much of that is my own rose tinted specs, not accounting for inflation, old git cynicism and inverse snobbery.

30t front with the 13-40 is pretty perfect for what I ride….//…loosing the 11t did no harm what so ever.

no but adding the 40t expander has presumably still cost you a wedge and added weight over an 11-36 used with a smaller ring…?

*I know the no1 kitten killer the Bronson is normally sold as 1x but can’t you still add a front mech if you wish? The codeine is also mechless but iirc O-O have form for frame glitches being turned into “features”.

Spesh Epic World Cup is single ring only, Codeine is as you say. It’s getting more popular for sure.

no but adding the 40t expander has presumably still cost you a wedge and added weight over an 11-36 used with a smaller ring…?

You assume he can fit smaller than a 30t NW on his current cranks.

*I know the no1 kitten killer the Bronson is normally sold as 1x but can’t you still add a front mech if you wish?

You can on a bronson, it’s the Newmad that won’t take one.

njee20 – Member
…Mud encrusted mechs are probably about as efficient as a hub gear, all else being equal, which it isn’t, so it’s a moot point. How many rides are truly that filthy too?

I think if there’s a prospect of your gear system taking out your spokes, you avoid that sort of ride. It becomes a self regulating process.

If you have a hub gear, it’s just another mucky ride.

It would be interesting if there was a real world comparison of a hubgear against a derailleur in cruddy claggy conditions. I know the derailleur wins out in the relatively clean environment of the road, but how about in some proper muck.

You assume he can fit smaller than a 30t NW on his current cranks.

cranks last a lot longer than ali sprockets if I was after custom gear range then personally I’d be looking there before cassette bodges.

(poah may have already looked into this and decided his current setup was, overall, the best option, it was the “dropping 11 and adding 40 lost me nothing” that I was questioning)

If you have a hub gear, it’s just another mucky ride.

it’s something I’d maybe consider for the commuter as that sees a lot of mud mileage but TBH I just stick a new drivechain on in spring enjoy the crisp shifts and efficiency for 6 months and accept it’ll get killed off over winter.

Last ride I did with ‘proper’ mud that actually affected things (i.e. wheels jamming up) rather than making just nasty noises the only person with drivetrain issues was the chap with the belt drive alfine. Belt drive lifted out of the sprocket, little shifting arm on the alfine jammed up. That was a pretty unusual moment though.

Having had an alfine for some years on a commuter I would be hard pushed to take one mountain biking- on the rare occasions I took it off road the whole thing felt horrifically rear heavy. To confirm it, a mate had a skinny duster with alfine and when he singlespeeded (singlesped?) it the handling improved so much it felt like a different bike! I could just about see a gearbox hardtail though.

On the cassette front, it does feel like shimano should be able to make an 11-42/44 on the same manufacturing principle as a current gen xt. The industry have certainly missed a trick (or not, depending on how cynical you are) by not taking the chance to do move to the boooost hubs at the same time as widening conventional freehubs to roadie 11 width. I could see shimano doing it if they go to booooost

no but adding the 40t expander has presumably still cost you a wedge and added weight over an 11-36 used with a smaller ring…?

present, didn’t cost me anything lol

The industry have certainly missed a trick (or not, depending on how cynical you are) by not taking the chance to do move to the boooost hubs at the same time as widening conventional freehubs to roadie 11 width. I could see shimano doing it if they go to booooost

Why? People are bemoaning having to buy an XD body for SRAM, how would having to buy a 1mm longer Shimano body be any less annoying?!

After that you still can’t fit less than an 11t anyway, and as the 11-40 fits fine on a normal 10 speed body that seems an utterly pointless change…

11spd Shimano Mtb cassettes fitting on existing wheels is a godsend … why change the cassette body if you don’t need to?

why change the cassette body if you don’t need to?

It’s a classic we always did it like this argument. Most decent modern hubs come with a XD option, a new bike or wheelset can come with it as standard. I can see why shimano will not produce one but they could get left behind. If the only reason we don’t adopt 10t is that “We didn’t make our freehub bodies to fit that x years ago” then it’s a crap argument.

Thankfully in some ways I don’t do as many muddy rides these days. Much as the UK riders bemoan the industry for designing things in sunny places you also have to remember that plenty of us live in those places and quite like the fact we can run bikes and gear that suit.

Why is there such a big debate over another bike part choice?

And what’s wrong with upmarket, quality kit? Why the need to exploit everything downwards.

12yrs ago I had a spin on a top-end Intense with Shimano electric gears. The gears felt great but I didn’t need them. For years LOTS of overpriced/expensive kit has been coming out. Are the nay-sayers saying there was kit ‘in the old days’ that wasn’t crazy priced then?

I remember paying £70 for a pair of Kona shorts 10+yrs ago. They were ace- VERY robust and well made. Pity they stopped making them.

The 1×10 haters- I don’t get it. With slacker and slacker bikes a granny ring aint going to help you past a certain steepness point anyway.

Its all good. Just enjoy it.

Lower gears dont help you go up hill

Is that meant to be taken seriously?

It’s a classic we always did it like this argument. Most decent modern hubs come with a XD option, a new bike or wheelset can come with it as standard. I can see why shimano will not produce one but they could get left behind. If the only reason we don’t adopt 10t is that “We didn’t make our freehub bodies to fit that x years ago” then it’s a crap argument.

Kelvin could have been commenting (like me) on swanny’s suggestion the industry ‘should’ have adopted the road 11 speed freehub body – basically an M10 body, but 1mm longer. That achieves nothing whatsoever for MTBs except built in obsolescence – you still can’t go smaller than an 11t, and you don’t need the extra length for the 40, so it’s pointless.

12yrs ago I had a spin on a top-end Intense with Shimano electric gears.

No you didn’t, Shimano haven’t been doing electronic gears that long. They did Airlines?

There’s always been very expensive kit though, I agree, that’s nothing new.

It would be interesting if there was a real world comparison of a hubgear against a derailleur in cruddy claggy conditions.

anecdotally; in the 15 or so years I was riding round the Chilterns, not particularly grindy winter conditions, but thick cloying chalky mud, I don’t think a derailleur failed once, certainly never had to replace one due to mud or winter damage.

I broke a rear mech once, an M970 one about 8 years ago, in the height of summer.

I’m not changing to a hub gear just in case that happens again.

So in summary:

– Some people like buying cool new stuff that helps them enjoy riding/bike ownership more
– Some people don’t like buying new stuff and think the people who like new stuff shouldn’t be allowed in “their” sport

Nobody is being forced to buy anything.

The bike industry shouldn’t “have” to make cheap backwards compatible versions of their products – that’s commercial suicide. They are businesses with R&D, wages, marketing and other bills to pay. That requires selling stuff. Early adopters will always pay a premium in any sector, and then cost trickles down with tech as market share and volume targets are achieved.

I like having 1×11, better chainring clearance, a wider main pivot and the resultant improved bearing life & stiffness, plus less confusion. I also then have less bar clutter.

Back when I was a teenager, I remember there was expensive gear too – USE bars, seatposts (that didn’t clamp properly), the old Hope Ti Glide hubs, Shocktech carbon suspension forks with elastomers etc etc. The difference now is that the dearer parts all actually work properly.

Nobody is being forced to buy anything.

You think the adoption of new standards means I am not being forced to upgrade my straight steerer 26 ” 9 speed bike?

One day it will be obsolete/ very difficult to get quality parts for it

In all honesty i cannot see me ever braking an Orange 5 frame or needing something “better” as I am getting older and less brave every year.

that’s commercial suicide

Its really not but as you note everything they do is motivated by the desire to make money including that decision