Lol he’s unelectable/ he would have saved Remain. Which is it?

I think Binners has been quite straight forward in stating his wish that someone else had been Labour leader during the referendum campaign. He’s hardly hidden that. Still… take this to the Corbyn thread. Or save it for the pub next summer [fingers crossed] it’s irrelevant here and now.

Leave the PFJ jokes to binbins and Mark Francois.

Leave the PFJ jokes to binbins and Mark Francois.

Sorry, forgot the PFJ is the one true path.

I’ll take the piss out of the JPF instead. Sworn enemies that they are.

I’m out now. It’s waste of time anyway.

You are correct

Mugabe, Weimar, Venezuala, <insert your choice of hyperinflation disaster here>, etc.

Please do some reading. There are numerous books and free resources on the internet that describe MMT, and once you do some research you’ll realise that the risk of hyperinflation is negligible for all sorts of reasons. No one is suggesting uncontrolled money printing. Quite the opposite in fact. What is being suggested is that the tools we use to fight wars and combat things like the banking crisis and Covid can also be applied to other crises such as climate change and poverty.

I know how it works…

But it’s not me you need to convince.

I know you know how it works, which why I’ll never understand why whenever anyone suggests changing this ridiculous system you respond with Monty Python and Citizen Smith images. I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with. Deep down they know they’re being shafted, but they think it can’t be changed, and that’s mostly because parties who aren’t the tories are too scared to make the case.

I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with.

Firstly, how? Secondly, the trouble with “firm beliefs” is they rarely change in the face of evidence.

Firstly, how?

How what?

I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with.

Mate… a majority of the northern working class just voted for the ultimate far right project – Brexit – then delivered a whacking great majority to an Eton chumocracy because they’d ‘had enough of experts’

Turkeys… Christmas…

Good luck with educating them on the fundamental inequalities of Chicago School, neoliberal economics and getting them to rise up against their oppressors

Maybe a better option would be to try and speak to a broad enough swathe of voters to get you elected then set about trying to make society a bit more equal and taming the wilder excesses of capitalism?

Some bloke thought so a while back and won 3 consecutive elections, and though the sixth formers will all fail to acknowledge it, did a lot of good.

Oh… and in response to the next post

IRAQ!!!!

Yes, it was/is a disaster

But you can’t view everything through the prism of that

How what?

Ensure that the…

general population properly understood this stuff

Maybe a better option would be to try and speak to a broad enough swathe of voters to get you elected then set about trying to make society a bit more equal and taming the wilder excesses of capitalism?

Some bloke thought so a while back and won 3 consecutive elections,

What exactly did he do to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism?

What exactly did he do to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism?

What about this, that, and the other? Or we could try to take it a point at a time. Starting with getting elected, then argue whether health spending, say, should have tripped rather than just doubled.

What exactly did he do to tame the wilder excesses of capitalism?

I’d write you a list – yet again – but we’ve been here countless times and it’s getting repetitive

Just ask yourself what the UK would have looked like by 2010 if we’d have had the Tories in power for those 13 years instead of Blair and Brown?

Have a look around you today and take note of what they’ve done since 2010 and what they’re presently up to, then imagine if they’d have got started on all that 13 years earlier

If nothing else Blair gave us optimism and hope. In the late 90’s things really did seem like they could only get better especially in his first term.

Corbyn did the same for a certain group but unfortunately was detested by a bigger group so was always bound to fail.

Starmer? Not sure yet, we’ll see.

When was the last time a Tory led government made you feel optimistic?

Ensure that the…

Education and transparency, and some politicians who are willing to talk about it. It’s not hard to explain that the nations finances are not the same as a household’s, and yet all the time we hear the same nonsense about national overdrafts, saddling our children with debt etc..

Maybe a better option would be to try and speak to a broad enough swathe of voters to get you elected then set about trying to make society a bit more equal and taming the wilder excesses of capitalism?

Is that the limit of your ambition? As I’ve said before, if we’re not prepared to fundamentally change a system which has proven itself unfit for purpose then there isn’t really any point in politics. We might as well have a one party system where policy is decided by technocrats (I’d argue we already have that). At least then we could plan long term instead of this charade of democracy.

Is that the limit of your ambition?

My ambition is to see a labour governemnt

We might as well have a one party system where policy is decided by technocrats (I’d argue we already have that).At least then we could plan long term instead of this charade of democracy.

Technocrats? Are you mental? This government are embarked on the biggest right-wing idealogical project this country has ever seen. Technocrats? If only! Technocrats might be able to establish a test and trace system that reached more than half the people it was meant to. Technocrats might know their arses from their elbows.

And if you seriously believe that a centrist labour administration under Starmer would be carrying on anything like the Tory’s presently are then you need your bumps feeling. Do you reckon Lisa Nandy would be dishing out £250 million PPE contracts to her husbands mates?

We know that you want some type of revolution. Thats obvious. Most people just want a government run by people who aren’t so nasty and corrupt and displayed a reasonable level of competence

We know that you want some type of revolution.

Rubbish. I want a system which does what is required to tackle climate change, where the likes of Amazon and facebook pay tax, where kids get free education up to university level, where public utilities are operated in the interests of the people not their shareholders, and where politicians are properly accountable. That’s it, it’s hardly revolutionary. I look forward to Kier Starmer implementing all this. How much would you like to bet that he doesn’t?

Some bloke thought so a while back and won 3 consecutive elections, and though the sixth formers will all fail to acknowledge it, did a lot of good.

Whereas those who managed to get beyond colouring crayons also note it did a lot of bad.
Those northerners didnt vote “ultimate far right project ” they voted for a change, any change since they had noticed the glorious project of Blair of chasing the tories rightwards economically hadnt really helped them but had, in fact, screwed them over. Just look at the comments about politicians being all the same and so on.
Something the hard right was able to exploit ably aided by the useful idiots with their hilarious images and tedious repetition of the current attack lines.

. I firmly believe that if the general population properly understood this stuff they’d be on the streets demanding it be done away with. Deep down they know they’re being shafted, but they think it can’t be changed,

Education and transparency, and some politicians who are willing to talk about it.

You must see how trite this looks? You’d make sure the population understood some controversial economics by educating them?

How would you educate them?

I’d suggest that some politicians advancing an alternative view (which some have but I agree insufficiently – and we could discuss why this is a hiding to nothing) is a good thing for sure but demonstrably not enough to make a difference.

Also, not all economists agree (possibly the least controversial thing I’ve ever typed). Education is intrinsically good but it doesn’t necessarily follow that once educated people will all agree with you.

Those northerners didnt vote “ultimate far right project ” they voted for a change, any change since they had noticed the glorious project of Blair of chasing the tories rightwards economically hadnt really helped them but had, in fact, screwed them over.

This absolutely. The public perception after 13 years of new labour was that nothing had fundamentally changed in their favour, and since then they have voted accordingly. The only time since then where they voted a bit differently, although sadly not in enough numbers, was 2017. I’ve also said before many times that the roots of Corbyn and brexit were sown by Blair and his failure to deliver fundamental change. This is what happens when a party which is supposed to represent the interests of workers fails to do that and instead represents the interests of capital. Starmer looks like he’s going down the same route, and the results will be the same.

Just how damn lucky are the Tories??! How long have they been in power? And still everything is Labour’s fault, or a reaction to the last Labour government (who I didn’t vote for, but many people either can’t remember, as they’re too young, or misremember).

I’ve also said before many times

Indeed 🙂

Indeed

What can I say, I feel an automatic duty to respond to the popular myth that the Blair govt was a social democratic utopia. 🙂 (and I’m really bored at work so this is a welcome distraction)

I’d write you a list – yet again – but we’ve been here countless times and it’s getting repetitive

Just ask yourself what the UK would have looked like by 2010 if we’d have had the Tories in power for those 13 years instead of Blair and Brown?

Oh I am not one to say that the Blair/Brown years were all bad. However they burnt the candle at both ends, they did nothing to curtail the free market madness. The investment they provided into services still largely went to privatised outsourcers. And they funded most of it by seeding debt into the future through PFI and asset inflation. They continued with the worship of the city and financial sectors and treated them very much with a light touch, and oversaw an upturn in the offshoring of profit for tax evasion without even lifting a finger to regulate.

the popular myth that the Blair govt was a social democratic utopia

Has a single person suggested that is the case in this thread?

And still everything is Labour’s fault, or a reaction to the last Labour government

No its a statement about the flaws on the centrist project.
If it makes you feel better then Cameron added to this. Since after new labour charged rightwards economically Cameron did take the approach of being less conservative for some social policies.

Again resulting in people feeling they didnt really have good representation since there was no clear distinction between the parties which cared about the small group of centrists vs the larger groups of traditional voters since they were hoping they would just keep voting for them.
This is the problem with the centrist approach to things. They share the same “silent majority” belief with the frothing right wingers whilst busily ignoring the centrist party (although even that after orange book was dragged rightwards economically hence blurring its position) doesnt win every election by a landslide as would be expected if the centrist position was as popular as claimed.

Has a single person suggested that is the case in this thread?

Well to read binners and many on here you’d think that’s what it was. Binners has even managed to persuade himself that the Iraq war wasn’t all that bad after all and was a minor blip in an otherwise unblemished record. I suppose I also need to remind everyone of cash for questions, Mandelson being sacked twice for helping his russian and indian billionaire friends, and the general reek of cronyism which was just as bad as the tories display now.

Binners has even managed to persuade himself that the Iraq war wasn’t all that bad after all and was a minor blip in an otherwise unblemished record

Thats an interesting twisting of what I said.

Actually… the word I used to describe the Iraq War was a ‘disaster’. Which it was and still is. What I then said is that you can’t judge 13 years of new labour through the prism of the Iraq war.

And I’ve certainly never defended Peter Mandleson

the popular myth that the Blair govt was a social democratic utopia

Has a single person suggested that is the case in this thread?

No. But he won three elections and it doesn’t matter what your policies are if you can’t enact them.

No its a statement about the flaws on the centrist project.

Centrist is such an empty word. We have a mixed economy… the rules the government set, and the money the government controls… determines who that works for. I don’t want a “New Labour” government… I want a Labour one… but if Starmer gets pushed out (and be under no illusions this what people from Corbyn’s wife downwards are openly calling for) there is no chance of “unity”… the Labour party will shed members, supporters and voters from the Left, and the next leader will have nothing to stop them writing off all the policies of 2017 & 2019 as a complete aberration, rather than a welcome shift away from the less committed policies of previous years. Many people who I agree with substantially on policy are currently destroying the influence that left leaning parts of the Labour movement have.. and for what?

Well to read binners and many on here you’d think that’s what it was.

Nope, I’ve not read a single post that suggests that, from anyone. People have suggested that having a Tory government then would have been worse, which I find hard to disagree with… based on what happened before and since.

Can we add PFI to Iraq? I’m not a fan of free schools nor the expansion of faith schools either.

Can we add PFI to Iraq?

And university tuition fees. The single largest negative impact on social mobility in a long time, and unbelievably  executed by a labour government.

Agree with all those negatives.

Repeat x100 … Starmer is not the new Blair … his replacement might have to be more like Blair though … push him out and the party will split, and the more successful part will abandon everything from 2017 … with the runt happy in their purity and safe from ever having to put theories into practise.

Centrist is such an empty word.

Yes I agree but centrist/moderates is the one the right wing of the Labour party seems to like. Neither of which are accurate since “centrist” begs the question of centre of what (plus fails to handle the inevitable shifting of it if only one side goes for the idea) and “moderate” is clearly bollocks considering how ideologically extreme many are.

We have a mixed economy

ermm yes? Although this is one of those bits where the hard right have done well in always just shouting free market/capitalist instead.

but if Starmer gets pushed out (and be under no illusions this what people from Corbyn’s wife downwards are openly calling for)

Odd that considering his behaviour eh?
We had the centrists/moderates nutters spending years attacking Corbyn and anyone left of centre whilst still demanding that it should be a broad church and they should be able to launch their rabid attacks unhindered.
Starmer was elected as someone in the middle able to unite the two halves but so far he seems to be pandering solely to the right side and coming across as a Blair mk 2 but minus any charisma and with the severe handicap of “fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me”.

He doesnt seem overly keen on party unity himself so should the left of the party just sit there and shrug?
Ultimately we need PR or something so we can represent the different views properly but sadly those morons in the libdems screwed that up for years to come.

Affordable housing disaster??
Average house price tripled under new labour
Brown and darlings green light for austerity measures??
Bombing foreigners
Religious nutter as leader

If it looks like a duck….

We had the centrists/moderates nutters spending years attacking Corbyn and anyone left of centre whilst still demanding that it should be a broad church and they should be able to launch their rabid attacks unhindered.

Many MPs that fit that vague and loaded description were pushed out of parliament into other roles (mayors etc) or out of the party completely (to non-political jobs or to sit as independents etc). That there was no ‘unity’ in recent years is incontrovertible … if many on the left seek vengeance for this, at the cost of no Labour rebuild towards the next general election… the negative impact will be on all of us.

Starmer was elected as someone in the middle able to unite the two halves but so far he seems to be pandering solely to the right side and coming across as a Blair mk 2

Sigh…

At the risk of repeating myself yet again… can you give us one single example of any policy changes that show him ‘pandering to the right’?

All he’s done is give Jeremy Corbyn a (thoroughly deserved) slapped wrist for his churlish failure to accept the findings of EHRC report in full. That’s it!

He can’t exactly let Grandad just carry on regardless after what he’s done, can he? What message would that send out? Both about how seriously the party is taking the issue of AS and also about his leadership abilities?

At the risk of repeating myself yet again… can you give us one single example of any policy changes that show him ‘pandering to the right’?

It’s a fair point: to provide the evidence you seek, Starmer would actually have to propose some policies.

He said when he took over as leader that he’d stick with Corbyns policy agenda and since then has changed not one single aspect of that policy agenda

So what exactly is your problem?

Many MPs that fit that vague and loaded description were pushed out of parliament into other roles (mayors etc) or out of the party completely (to non-political jobs or to sit as independents etc).

The original cabinet tried to cover all bases but they carried out a staged resignation en mass designed to cause the most damage.
Claiming they were pushed in most cases seems to be stretching the definition somewhat as opposed to them taking their ball home and refusing to play.
Even the minor efforts (reflecting other parties) to exert control were decried as Stalinist.
Remember they couldnt even get rid of Hoey, who makes most tories look a bit leftist, without her choosing to go.

That there was no ‘unity’ in recent years is incontrovertible … if many on the left seek vengeance for this

The question is why shouldnt they? What is being done to encourage them to remain and work as opposed to the demands to purge the unbelievers.
It seems to be reverting back to the demanding unquestioning support without actually providing some reasons to do so. Where are the ideas and policies to carry people along as opposed to the careful stacking of the party apparatus?