it’s not going well is it

Not at all well.

And that’s 100% not his responsibility eh?

Some of you seem to think the options are Corbyn or Tory

No, it’s not about the personalities, it never was. It’s about a corrupt and inherently unsustainable economic system which only serves the interests of a tiny few people and enables them to extract wealth and power at the cost of everyone else, or doing something else which benefits everyone, and gives everyone the same chances and opportunities irregardless of their background. That’s all it is, and all its ever been.

Blair won power with the often repeated mantra that you have to win first, then change things later. But the minute he was in place he declared he had no intention of changing things, and instead doubled down on the bankrupt and corrupt system which is the root of all our problems. If Starmer wants to hold on to the support he gained with his excellent leadership campaign, he needs to provide real confidence that he’s not going to do the same as Blair, and right now that confidence is draining away very fast.

Im afraid the left of the party spectacularly misses the point as usual.

If you push the agenda of McLusky & Corbin, you will NEVER EVER EVER get elected. The middle ground voters are who you need. Militant unionists and Palestine sympathisers won’t get you there.

As things stand, the Tories will come to the next election post Boris with a centralist candidate and destroy Labour. Again. The only hope is a moderate like Starmer.

Blair won power with the often repeated mantra that you have to win first, then change things later.

Starmer isn’t Blair. Starmer isn’t Johnson, or May, or Cameron. The next leader, once the Corbyn cult have removed or hobbled Starmer, may well take an approach more like Blair, sadly… it’s looking like being a smaller party by then though, isn’t it. It probably won’t have my vote then either. Starmer is an ideal candidate for the current Labour movement to unify behind… when he’s pushed out, unifying will be seen as a dead loss, and a split/realignment will have to happen.

Im afraid the left of the party spectacularly misses the point as usual.

If you push the agenda of McLusky & Corbin, you will NEVER EVER EVER get elected. The middle ground voters are who you need. Militant unionists and Palestine sympathisers won’t get you there.

As things stand, the Tories will come to the next election post Boris with a centralist candidate and destroy Labour. Again. The only hope is a moderate like Starmer.

I’m afraid it’s you who is missing the point, so I’ll repeat it: the maths of Starmer’s victory proves that those who voted for Corbyn subsequently voted for Starmer in their thousands.

If you push the agenda of McLusky & Corbin, you will NEVER EVER EVER get elected.

There is research showing a great deal of support for much of the Labour manifesto under Corbyn, when presented independently of political party/leader.

So people didn’t like Corbyn, fine. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. As the Tories lurch further to the right why not provide a real alternative rather than chasing the new centre as it shifts ever further right too.

Blair undoubtedly did some good but a lot of it was paid for with the great PFI scam because they were too scared to tax people.

So people didn’t like Corbyn, fine. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Agreed.

Are we all getting free broadband then, or not?

Fine. Keep your heads in the sand. I would vote for Starmer, but in the last GE I voted Green as Corbyn completely unfit for office and I detest McLusky (seen him in action in my company). I am not alone.

My family are all similar.

Fine. Keep your heads in the sand.

Well-constructed comeback.

Are we all getting free broadband then, or not?

We absolutely should be. The fact that you and most others think that its an unaffordable policy is proof only that you’ve been brainwashed into not supporting things that are in your own best interest. It’s a bit like saying ‘so are we all getting a free covid vaccine then?’. Of course the answer to that is an unambiguous yes (when one is ready), so why not for other things we need which are in the collective best interest?

I urge you to read the following twitter thread, once you understand it you’ll realise that questions about whether we can afford free broadband or other things central to our lives are a bit silly.

There’s massive misunderstanding about what QE is and what it does. So please forgive a long thread on one of the most important tools used in modern economics, which if used properly might provide real hope for a better future.

— Richard Murphy (@RichardJMurphy) November 22, 2020

So people didn’t like Corbyn, fine. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That’s pretty much where I am: whilst I’m more supportive of Corbyn than most, I recognise his serious shortcomings as leader. Yet, given the popularity of his proposals, there would seem to be an opportunity for someone, with more PR savvy and better leadership skills. I hope that Starmer can be that person.

We absolutely should be.

Agreed.

I hope that Starmer can be that person.

Agreed.

I detest McLusky

Agreed.

I detest McLusky

Agreed.

He’s retiring soon, so I wouldn’t worry too much about him. It’ll be interesting to see who UNISON elect – I’ve just voted.

Christ, how refreshing to see the word…

Agreed.

… on a political thread on here! 🙂

Once Len is retired he’ll be getting his ennoblement for services to the Conservative Party and will sit in the house of Lords as a Tory Pier, where he will drop the accent he’s been putting on for years and reveal his perfect home counties vernacular

He’s not even a scouser. He was born and raised in Surrey, then post Eton and Oxbridge, after studying some VHS’s of John Lennon, he was secreted into the port of Liverpool where he worked as a docker for approximately 3 days before ingratiating himself with the trade union movement and moving to London to destroy the Labour party from within. In his quest he recruited to the cause a handy bearded idiot he met in an Islington church hall meeting where he was protesting, demanding the extending of employment rights and pension provisions to the cats and dogs of social care workers, as they were part of the struggle too.

Through this career as an undercover Tory, Len (real name Bartholomew De Pfeffel Ponsomby-Smythe) had to be repeatedly reigned in by his handlers for over-egging the whole working class thing to a degree that it was becoming a completely absurd and ridiculous caricature that risked blowing his cover

Agreed. (from Kelvin)

So do you think Starmer will propose to provide free broadband? Of course he won’t, because he refuses to challenge the one thing that obstructs the possibility of all these common sense policies whiich would solve a lot/most of our problems. Why won’t he challenge it? Because he’s not the champion of the people who would benefit (all of us), but primarily the representative of those who benefit from the currrent system.

Corbyn for all his faults at least gave a clear indication that he would challenge the system, and people believed him. Up against unassailable establishment opposition he failed, but the hope/ambition of his supporters hasn’t gone away, and Starmer harnessed that to win the leadership. Now he needs to follow through on those promises or his own leadership will fail just like the failed establishment centrists before him.

Binners have you read that thing about QE yet? Or is that all sixth form marxist fantasy too?

So do you think Starmer will propose to provide free broadband?

No. The Labour party’s next general election manifesto is unlikely, I expect, to chime with my own policy wants as closely as either the 2017 or 2019 manifestos did. Starmer has a big challenge ahead, as regards winning over voters that rejected Labour at those elections, and keeping people, like me, who were new to Labour because of the very real shift in that 2017 manifesto. The universal state provided broadband policy is absolutely one I support (remember, the state pays the main private provider to extend broadband coverage already, they just keep failing), but I fully expect it to be dumped before the next election… along with other policies that seemed like kite flying to much of the public in 2019. Policies on education, health, the environment and local services are more important to me, and important to more people.

Or is that all sixth form marxist fantasy too?

I think you need to provide a colouring book version.

You can just hear the conversation now in No 10.

Blohard: Shit. We’re in trouble here. We all know Brexit will be a disaster and we are going to be exposed for exploiting covid to enrich our mates. What can we do?

Aide: No problem. Don’t worry. We’ll just leak something to wind that silly old tw*t Corbyn up. Our mates in the press will seize on whatever petty revenge he tries to get and splash it under a headline that reads ‘Would Things Be Better Under Labour?’ It’s great, we thought we’d be struggling against a former DPP and QC, but we don’t need to get to him. We just push Grandpa’s buttons and it’s job done. Pass the port.

You can just hear the conversation now in No 10.

Perhaps in your fantasies although could you remind me how exactly this relates to reality?
Since you seem to be confusing Starmer picking a fight to please the rabid right wing press vs Corbyn picking the fight.

I think you need to provide a colouring book version.

Well let me summarise. Everything successive governments have told you about government spending is a lie. The magic money tree is real, and its operated by the Bank of England at the behest of the government. Since 2009 they’ve been using it to successfully prop up the banks and the financial sector, and the banks and financial services companies have done very well out of it, as have private sharelholders. Since covid began they’ve been using it to fund all the borrowing and spending needed to fund the furlough scheme, the NHS and prop up businesses. Except this time its more direct, and the government have changed the rules so that the money created is listed as government debt even though they owe it to themselves. This enables them to continue with the austerity narrative of having to pay it back, when the opposite is true. Almost a trillion pounds has been created in the last 10 years to prevent the collapse of the economy from the banking crisis and covid and it never has to be paid back.

So is it really a marxist fantasy to ask if they can do all this to prop up the economy in the wake of covid and the banking crisis, why can’t they do it for things like climate change and to eradicate poverty? You’re making excuses for and supporting the very things which you profess to hate. Perhaps spend more time reading than copy and pasting funny pictures?

The magic money tree is real, and its operated by the Bank of England at the behest of the government.

I know how it works. I know that austerity was an idealogical project, as the ultra-austerity we’re about to witness will be. I can see who’s pockets the present massive state spending is ending up in. It’ll pretty much all end up in offshore bank accounts in the Caymen Islands, I’m sure.

But it’s not me you need to convince. Just to re-iterate: I’ve voted Labour at every single election my whole adult life. I even voted for that beardy old **** twice. I’m not the one who’s votes labour need to win to get into power.

People who normally vote Tory will need to be persuaded to vote labour. Telling them that magic money trees are actually real is unlikely to do the trick and will just hand the Tory press yet another open goal.

If labour want to ever get back into power they’re going to have to be wilier than that. The last two times of telling everyone they’re wrong and you’re right didn’t exactly go too well.

‘Winning the argument’ – quite possibly the stupidest statement any politician has ever made – doesn’t count for anything

My family are all similar.

Norfolk born and bred, eh?

So is it really a marxist fantasy to ask if they can do all this to prop up the economy in the wake of covid and the banking crisis, why can’t they do it for things like climate change and to eradicate poverty? You’re making excuses for and supporting the very things which you profess to hate.

This

I’m thinking ‘let’s become the Weimar Republic’ might be an even tougher sell electorally than the free broadband

They were certainly unelectable with half their MPs against him and some actively wanting to lose the election. But that’s in the past, so whatever.

I’m still wanting a more in-depth explanation of this little beauty.

Just for the avoidance of doubt it is about 3/4 down the previous page and was posted by grum about Corbyn’s election fail last December. Apparently it was all down to a fifth column of Labour MPs….

I’ve got biccies and everything ready.

The magic money tree is real

Mugabe, Weimar, Venezuala, <insert your choice of hyperinflation disaster here>, etc.

Not an easy sell.

Regardless of what you believe about where the folding stuff comes from and the environment, binners is right about Labour getting in to #10. You’re not the target market – few of us on STW are, I suspect.

Apparently it was all down to a fifth column of Labour MPs….

I never said all, nice straw man.

It’s not even controversial to point out that factional infighting has been massively detrimental to Labour’s chances of electoral success.

Blame it all on ‘the left’ and Corbyn if you want – you might have a nasty surprise when the Tories get a vaguely competent person in charge though.

Jesus Christ they had a coup against him, they planned resignations to cause the most damage possible. Some refused to ever serve in his cabinet before he was elected leader. Are you seriously denying that some MPs were against him?

Also Corbyn lost to Boris so did Remain. What does that say about the argument for Remain?

It’s not even controversial to point out that factional infighting has been massively detrimental to Labour’s chances of electoral success.

Agreed.

We need to learn the lesson of that.

I see little evidence of that right now.

What does that say about the argument for Remain?

That it was lost, and that we’re no longer EU members?

What does that say about the argument for Remain?

That their referendum cause would have been greatly assisted by the leader of the opposition, who decided to take a 2 month sabbatical on his allotment instead

Lol he’s unelectable/ he would have saved Remain. Which is it?

BTW he came to Cardiff and spoke to thousands of people early on in the campaign, maybe he just did one rally though?

Do we want a credible and electable Labour Party or not?

Hint – just saying “Corbyn could have done it if everyone wasn’t so nasty to him” doesn’t really cut it.

He lost by 80 seats to an empty (as well as rumpled and poorly fitting) suit.

I’m not sure I have the time to carry on pointing out the bleeding obvious to people who just can’t or won’t acknowledge it.

You’ve got me beat, guys. Problem is, it isn’t me you needed to convince.

Up the PFJ!