Sir! Keir! Starmer!

Ah yes… I bet on the hard-faced shamelessness of Mr Cummins and the fact that he’d be going nowhere.

My political predictions are usually a bit more accurate than my footballing ones 😀

They could be shit and still be better than your footballing ones. 😛

A fair point 😃

Getting away from Binners’ pies and back to the subject at hand. I took up Rone’s earlier recommendation to read The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Kelton whilst on holiday (I always read economics books on holiday for some bizarre reason), and I would urge everyone to do the same. I already knew a lot about MMT but even so it’s pretty mind blowing.

So my main question regarding Starmer’s policies is whether he’ll take the obvious opportunity covid (and brexit) has provided and adopt MMT inspired economic policies, or continue with the fraud that we can’t afford to pay for decent public services, infrastructure and properly confront climate change? I suspect we all know the answer, but lets wait and see.

Good call Dazh. Glad you read it.

Think most folk think it’s some sort of left wing policy when it’s just how the system actually works – with currency issuing governments – irrespective of ideology. Look at Trump and co they are always spending on the military – without restriction. That money could just as easily be spent on things that improve lives.

On the UK side the BoE governor (Andrew Bailey) has a lot to answer for recently talking up the country nearly bring broke. This establishment rubbish has to stop and is demonstrable nonsense.

And don’t let anyone lecture you on inflation – particularly hyperinflation (Zimbabwe – yawn) which was about the supply side and Labour market not being able to deliver productivity.

The UK Government doesn’t even have to go to the bond market which creates the bogus debt we all talk about – this is mechanism for controlling interest rates rather than actually borrowing money (which has already been issued and spent at this point.)

Either way Q/E has taken care of this ‘debt’ – this year

Lots of Kelton stuff out there. She puts lots of time in. Richard Murphy runs a good blog too – he’s UK based.

Mark Blyth, L. Randall Wray and Bill Mitchell – all worth following too.

I’ll have a read of that when I’ve finished Mein Kampf.

I don’t share your pessimism Daz. I think Starmer isn’t making policy commitments at the moment because he knows what’s coming. This next 12 months could quite potentially be this countries most transformative year in peacetime.

When the furlough ends in October there is going to be an avalanche of bankruptcies and unemployment is going to rise to levels this country has never seen. Chuck a No Deal Brexit in on top of that and you’re looking at an economic tsunami. The Tory’s, especially Boris, will own that mess 100%. But we all know what their only solution is… more austerity.

Next year, as this threadbare Americanised idea of Capitalism has delivered yet another economic implosion, even more severe than the last, then it might well be very fertile ground for a credible opposition to be offering radical alternatives.

I live in hope, anyway, you miserable sod! 😃

In other news…

I love polls. This one basically says the Tories could just literally shit on your dinner table and you’d still vote for it.

(Sorry there’s some duplication here I couldn’t pull out individual polls)

Which political party do you trust the most…

With the economy?
CON: 41%
LAB: 27%
OTH: 14%

To tackle poverty?
LAB: 37%
CON: 27%
OTH: 15%

To tackle crime?
CON: 38%
LAB: 27%
OTH: 14%

To support the NHS?
LAB: 37%
CON: 31%
OTH: 14%

[1/2]

— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) July 24, 2020

With immigration?
CON: 36%
LAB: 23%
OTH: 17%

To protect the environment?
CON: 26%
LAB: 22%
GRN: 20%
OTH: 12%

To support the education system?
CON: 33%
LAB: 31%
OTH: 17%

With foreign affairs?
CON: 37%
LAB: 31%
OTH: 16%

[2/2]
Via @RedfieldWilton, 22 Jul.

— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) July 24, 2020

And my favourite – support for the four day week!

To what extent, if at all, would you support a four-day work week?

Support: 60%
Oppose: 11%

Via @RedfieldWilton, 22 Jul.

— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) July 24, 2020

I don’t share your pessimism Daz. I think Starmer isn’t making policy commitments at the moment because he knows what’s coming. This next 12 months could quite potentially be this countries most transformative year in peacetime.

Binners – Keith Starmer is just going to offer you polite Capitalism. Not much different from what you’ve already got – but without the “Sex Yeti” (Frankie Boyle) at the wheel.

dazh
Subscriber

So my main question regarding Starmer’s policies is whether he’ll take the obvious opportunity covid (and brexit) has provided and adopt MMT inspired economic policies, or continue with the fraud that we can’t afford to pay for decent public services, infrastructure and properly confront climate change?

TBH the lie has been so well and so continually sold that it’ll now be very hard to convince anyone that the truth isn’t Left Wing Utopia And Financial Irresponsibility. Especially since Miliband’s Labour decided that the best way to deal with it was to say “Yes, absolutely, you have to balance the books” and Brown’s labour left with “There isn’t any money”. And even when people actually do it, they tend to do all they can to hide what they’re actually doing so that it still fits into the lie (on the left, to avoid accusations of spending what we don’t have; on the right, to avoid weakening the lie)

People understand “balancing the books” and “living within your means”, they’re easy relatable concepts. Of course, world and national economies aren’t easy and relatable, they’re complex and unrelated to our own daily finances, so almost by definition easy and relatable concepts will be false or misleading. But that doesn’t stop them from being an easy sell.

I’ve exchanged a few tweets with James Meadway (former advisor to John McDonnell) and he doesn’t really have time for MMT either (though he admits the debt is largely irrelevant.)

That tells you a lot.

Richard Murphy (a prominent MMTer) got close to Labour but they didn’t employ his services as I understand. (He co-authored The Green New Deal.)

Stephanie Kelton went into her research 20 years ago looking for answers to economic problems and was very much led by the evidence to where she is today.

And she is not shy at taking anyone on.

The mainstream media need knocking into shape too as they’re always pushing the ‘how are you going to pay for it?’

Binners – Keith Starmer is just going to offer you polite Capitalism

There seems to an awful lot of assumptions going on here, with little or nothing to substantiate them.

As far as I’m aware, the Labour manifesto hasn’t changed at all.

It seems like the priority here, rather understandably, is establishing the party as a credible political force again. This he seems to be doing rather well.

Why is it that credibility and radical policies are considered mutually exclusive? They shouldn’t be. Like I said… I don’t share your pessimism. I think you may be surprised. I certainly hope so, because the mess this country is going to be in by this time next year is going to require radical action.

I honestly think Starmer gets that, which is why he’s sitting back and letting them get on with this car crash, as with an 80 seat majority, there’s not much else he can do anyway, but present a credible alternative for the upcoming shit/fan interface.

Most of us know that there are no sunny uplands and Brexit is going to be an absolute disaster, but when the full horror of it becomes reality, a lot of people who voted for their bullshit promises are going to be hearing the old Johnny Rotten refrain “ever had the feeling you’ve been cheated?”

This is the calm before the storm. We’re in for a seismic year in this country, and this prevents a huge opportunity for a Labour Party that looks a lot cannier than it has been for the last 5 years. Not least as we now have a leader who isn’t a lifelong Brexiteer

MMT still ignores that the rest of the world exists… it makes perfect sense in a closed economy… we shouldn’t become a closed economy. I doubt very much that any Labour leader will be quoting it, ever. But the argument as regards “we can’t afford it” has been changed this year, and will be even more next year… and the next election is likely to more about spending priorities rather than any talk about further austerity or “balancing the books” nonsense of past election battles.

kelvin
Subscriber

and the next election is likely to more about spending priorities rather than any talk about further austerity or “balancing the books” nonsense of past election battles.

We’ll see. I think it’ll go the opposite way and it’ll all be “we spent all that money to Get Coronavirus Done and now we need to make cuts to pay for it”. Also “There is no alternative” and “Labour will throw away all the hard work of the last few years”

Not unlikely. But I still think Johnson will want to (look to) be mister generous at the next election… he won’t fight like Cameron and May did.

I know people that voted Tory instead of lib just to keep Corbyn out.

With that fear gone they will probably go back to voting lib. A few less votes for the scumbags when the time comes.

Next year, as this threadbare Americanised idea of Capitalism has delivered yet another economic implosion, even more severe than the last, then it might well be very fertile ground for a credible opposition to be offering radical alternatives.

FFS man you spent most of last year having a go at ‘disaster socialists’ who were supposedly enabling brexit and now you’re positively salivating at the prospect of an economic implosion helping labour’s chances and suggesting it as labour’s primary strategy.

MMT still ignores that the rest of the world exists…

Not read the bit on trade yet but please elaborate so I can responsd when I get to it. I see no reason why MMT should result in a closed or economically isolated society.

MMT still ignores that the rest of the world exists… it makes perfect sense in a closed economy… we shouldn’t become a closed economy.

It’s government spending. Not sure what you’re driving at?

I don’t want to be rude but what you say doesn’t actually make sense. It’s a description of the way the government finance and spending works – in a sovereign nation like ours.

We already do it. The USA already does it, as does Japan and Australia.

The only difference is that we don’t harness it to benefit the vast majority of our population.

FFS man you spent most of last year having a go at ‘disaster socialists’ who were supposedly enabling brexit and now you’re positively salivating at the prospect of an economic implosion helping labour’s chances and suggesting it as labour’s primary strategy.

I don’t think Starmer is a disaster socialist. Jeremy Corbyn is. He was also a committed lifelong Brexiteer.

To compare the motives of the two of them is ludicrous. Corbyn wanted this and actively enabled it. Starmer is the grown up who’s been left to deal with Corbyns stupidity and the mess it’s left.

Still… we are where we are. Which grandad has to shoulder a lot of the responsibility for. Not that he will. Or the antisemitism, or two Tory election victories, Boris’s massive majority or any of the numerous other terrible things that are all his fault

If we’d have had anyone else other than that Brexiteer clown as (AWOL) Labour ‘leader’ during the referendum, we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place

Not unlikely. But I still think Johnson will want to (look to) be mister generous at the next election… he won’t fight like Cameron and May did.

It’s funny that Johnson may end up being a bigger neocon than Cameron was.

Zionism and socialism are mutually exclusive. You can only be one or the other.

Zionism and socialism are mutually exclusive. You can only be one or the other.

[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. Winston Churchill.

The kibbutz (Hebrew word for “communal settlement”) is a unique rural community; a society dedicated to mutual aid and social justice; a socioeconomic system based on the principle of joint ownership of property, equality and cooperation of production, consumption and education; the fulfillment of the idea “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”; a home for those who have chosen it.

[Bolshevism] among the Jews is nothing new.

Great examples but he said zionism was incompatible with socialism, not being Jewish.

Modern zionism maybe – but zionism originally had a strong socialist leaning

Just for future reference here are the pledges he made to the membership before being selected.

10 Pledges

My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve.

Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand.

1. Economic justice

Increase income tax for the top 5% of earners, reverse the Tories’ cuts in corporation tax and clamp down on tax avoidance, particularly of large corporations. No stepping back from our core principles.

2. Social justice

Abolish Universal Credit and end the Tories’ cruel sanctions regime. Set a national goal for wellbeing to make health as important as GDP; Invest in services that help shift to a preventative approach. Stand up for universal services and defend our NHS. Support the abolition of tuition fees and invest in lifelong learning.

3. Climate justice

Put the Green New Deal at the heart of everything we do. There is no issue more important to our future than the climate emergency. A Clean Air Act to tackle pollution locally. Demand international action on climate rights.

4. Promote peace and human rights

No more illegal wars. Introduce a Prevention of Military Intervention Act and put human rights at the heart of foreign policy. Review all UK arms sales and make us a force for international peace and justice.

5. Common ownership

Public services should be in public hands, not making profits for shareholders. Support common ownership of rail, mail, energy and water; end outsourcing in our NHS, local government and justice system.

6. Defend migrants’ rights

Full voting rights for EU nationals. Defend free movement as we leave the EU. An immigration system based on compassion and dignity. End indefinite detention and call for the closure of centres such as Yarl’s Wood.

7. Strengthen workers’ rights and trade unions

Work shoulder to shoulder with trade unions to stand up for working people, tackle insecure work and low pay. Repeal the Trade Union Act. Oppose Tory attacks on the right to take industrial action and the weakening of workplace rights.

8. Radical devolution of power, wealth and opportunity

Push power, wealth and opportunity away from Whitehall. A federal system to devolve powers – including through regional investment banks and control over regional industrial strategy. Abolish the House of Lords – replace it with an elected chamber of regions and nations.

9. Equality

Pull down obstacles that limit opportunities and talent. We are the party of the Equal Pay Act, Sure Start, BAME representation and the abolition of Section 28 – we must build on that for a new decade.

10. Effective opposition to the Tories

Forensic, effective opposition to the Tories in Parliament – linked up to our mass membership and a professional election operation. Never lose sight of the votes ‘lent’ to the Tories in 2019. Unite our party, promote pluralism and improve our culture. Robust action to eradicate the scourge of antisemitism. Maintain our collective links with the unions.

Herzl died in 1904. Trotsky, Luxemburg et al were socialists and anti-racists, they opposed zionism. To link those people with the kibbutz system is ludicrous, they would have defended the Palestinian refugees driven out by it (but, just to clarify, they were murdered before 1948, so they didn’t).
Starmer seems to be doing a pretty good job of shrinking and bankrupting the LP. I imagine when people campaign against the government, it will be like when RAR and the ANL were big in the 1970s, you never saw the LP. It would be difficult for the LP to lead a campaign when people don’t know what it stands for. If Starmer is actually against privatising the NHS, might he not have mentioned that in PMQs when it was potentially being included in a trade deal?
NB. Being forensic, the desire for ‘electability’ and looking like the establishment is not enhanced by the sartorial splash of a Peter Christian advert. a combover and a squeaky voice.

Reading this thread really is a fascinating window into the strange reality some people live in. Starmer just seems a complete non entity. If Corbyn is criticised for being a bit quiet during the Brexit disaster the current leadership need lining up against a wall and shooting for desertion given what’s gone on since March or whenever they got in. I mean I get Binners acts like a prepubescent kid with politics book and didn’t like Corbyn but his blind faith support for the empty suit that Starmer is mystifies me.

I have never voted labour in my life but the Zip household will now. That’s all The Starmtrooper needs to do . Become someone you can vote for.

I know  voters who would have voted Lib Dem In the last election but voted Tory just to keep Corbyn out.

Votes are all that matters.

I have never voted labour in my life but the Zip household will now. That’s all The Starmtrooper needs to do . Become someone you can vote for.

I know  voters who would have voted Lib Dem In the last election but voted Tory just to keep Corbyn out.

Votes are all that matters.

End of thread, basically.

Ideological purity vs electability.

I also know many people who said they would have voted differently if it wasn’t for (and I quote one) “that IRA-sympathising, ridiculous beardy old dinosaur who couldn’t run a bath”.

I don’t agree with most of that, but Corbyn made it so easy for the right wing press to drip-drip stuff into the consciousness of people who can then be sold the line that Labour want to take away everything you’ve earned and give it to ‘shirkers’ – or whatever. Not my views, but the right wing press are extremely good at creating ‘accepted wisdom’ by drip-dripping half truths and lies expressed as opinion (but with the acknowledgment that it is an opinion in very small print).

I have never voted labour in my life but the Zip household will now.

End of thread, basically.

Anecdote is not evidence and one poster on this chat bored proves nothing.

Its a sad state of affairs that doing nothing is the best way to get elected, having said that despite Starmer being so passive and Boris being completely useless voting intention is still quite markedly in favour of Boris.

Anecdote is not evidence and one poster on this chat bored proves nothing.

I’m center/right, and whilst I probably disagree with Starmer on many things, if I could vote I’d vote him over Boris or any of the usual conservative suspects. Same as my partner, same as some of her family and I imagine same as a lot of middle-class and young professionals that were left with the utter depressing reality of choosing between Corbyn and Boris.

So is your anecdote better evidence?

Latest Opiniom polling:

The Conservatives have fallen back to 4 points in our latest Opinium/Observer poll.

See the full details here: https://t.co/MQNVBKA4sb pic.twitter.com/9cbnDO5oSY

— Opinium (@OpiniumResearch) July 25, 2020

And from one I missed:

Labour voters' opinion on Starmer as Labour leader:

Approve: 77%
Disapprove: 6%
(Source: Opinium 25/07/2020)

That 6% may be incredibly loud on Twitter but in reality they are a tiny minority.

— Zoë Paramour (@ZoeParamour) July 26, 2020

He’s not convinced me yet… but then with the current political landscape, he doesn’t need to… he has my vote. He seems to be making progress.

As far as Labour voter opinions go, how does that compare with Corbyns best polling?

I do think you’re better looking at the party’s polling.

Which is good-ish currently.

National Polling:

CON: 41% (-4)
LAB: 38% (+5)
LD: 6% (-6)

Opinium / July 31, 2020 / n=2000 / Online

(% chg w 2019 Election)

— Polling UK (@UK_Polling) August 1, 2020

The ratings for Anneliese Dodds as a who would make the most competent CoE were terrible (something like 6% approval). People assuming Sunak was great was based on the fact he chucked something in at the time of need.

Worth remembering Sunak is a Brexiteer and has plenty of investment bank experience. He’s not really on your side.

The real test is what happens next and it’s not looking good. Tories reverting back to the market … Insane.

We need a massive overhaul of the country’s finances now. The private sector is contracting. The Tories just aren’t imaginative enough to rebound this one.

We need Labour now to offer something up – the time for just nodding with the Government is over.

This is Labour’s opportunity …

Holy crap, the number of people on Twitter that can’t read is amazing.

We need a massive overhaul of the country’s finances now. The private sector is contracting. The Tories just aren’t imaginative enough to rebound this one.

I think this could be a first. Me and you agreeing on something. 😉

It’s obvious that the Tory’s priorities are to just get everything back to exactly how it was before, as quickly as possible. OI! Office drone! Get back on that train for your daily commute into your city centre offices and get buying lattes from Costa and sandwiches from Pret. Maybe a post-work pint in Spoons too.

That really is the sum total of their solutions, after everything that’s happened. The dearth of imagination is thoroughly depressing. They just want a quick return to the status quo that benefitted their mates so enormously

Then impose hyper-austerity on the rest of us to pay for it all

You’re right that there has never been a better time for the Labour Party to offer fairer, more imaginative (whisper it…. “radical’) solutions, and take a real look at how we order our society for the benefit of everyone and not just a select few

For me keeping relatively quiet and letting this car crash of coronavirus take it’s toll on the current administration isn’t enough, I want to know what he is planning to do and how he is going to organise it and fund it, not just keep highlighting how badly BoJo’s decision making is. Let’s face it any one of us could do that. He needs to stand up and be counted before I’ll see him as anything other than an opportunist politician.

Sweeping statemnets are easy, detail requires research thought and planning. Housing didn’t make his 10 points above and yet it is crucial to a few of them. Taking people out of over-priced accomodation in thermal sieves and providing affordable energy efficient homes that are a pleasure to live in and near to people’s places of work should be in the top three and doesn’t feature at all.

We need a massive overhaul of the country’s finances now. The private sector is contracting. The Tories just aren’t imaginative enough to rebound this one.

We need Labour now to offer something up – the time for just nodding with the Government is over.

Agreed Rone. This is what I want. Starmer currently looks too worried about appearing to offer alternatives that can be derided as “not getting behind this country”… but offering up that alternative plan for the country might be step two (step one being just to look competent and looking to lead a nation, not a faction), hopefully we’ll see it later. Hopefully.

For sure Kelvin.

I know the dangers of looking at polls every few days…

But this is not so good.

Irrespective of my thoughts on Starmer – I really don’t see where this sort of support for the Tories is coming from.

NEW @Survation Poll – Westminster Voting Intention:

CON 44% (+3)
LAB 35% (-2)
LD 8% (-)
GRN 5% (-)
SNP 4% (-)
BXP <1% (-)
OTH 3% (-)

1,019 respondents, fieldwork 31 Jul – 3 Aug 2020. Changes w/ 10-12 Jul 2020.https://t.co/PGamOD0Kc6 pic.twitter.com/iHsVOiha60

— Survation. (@Survation) August 4, 2020