Yes that’s really going to persuade the voters that they’re not elitest and out of touch.

Well someone’s got to tell them at some point. Otherwise, what’s the strategy? Pander to their petty racism and insularity forevermore?

Did you not vote for both of them?

I did, and what a mistake that was! I was naive enough to take Starmer’s promises at face value and thought Rayner was an excellent grassroots campaigning politiician from the left side of the party. Given Rayner’s solid, almost fawning support for Corbyn before she became deputy leader that wasn’t an unreeasonable assumption about Rayner, but since then she’s shown herself to be career politician who will say anything, and distance herself from previous allies to climb the greasy pole just like the rest of them. Both of them need to go, along with all the other career politicians and freeloaders in the party who don’t give a **** about anything but themselves. Labour will never be the transformative, progressive party it was supposed to be with these parasites in charge.

I take it back about Rayner… this is idiotic… ignoring Jewish party leaders at this point is a hole that no deputy leader should be falling into…

I am so proud that our party has elected the first ever ethnic minority leader of a political party anywhere in the UK.

I also want to pay tribute to @MonicaLennon7 for running a positive, passionate campaign and I know she will continue to be a forceful advocate for change.

— Angela Rayner (@AngelaRayner) February 27, 2021

I am so proud that our party has elected the first ever ethnic minority leader of a political party anywhere in the UK.

The idea of left v right in mainstream UK politics is an illusion.
It’s right v right. You’re voting on which colour/brand.
The moral superiority that Labour Party voters feel needs to be stripped away.
You’re no better than any Tory/UKIP/Brexit Party supporter.
You believe exactly the same basic things.
And at least they’re honest about what they support.

Had to read through the drivel of the last few pages, but this is a stunner:

And now Starmer says he’ll oppose tory corporation tax increases. He’s clearly concluded that the UK is so right wing that the only option s to be further to the right than Boris. F****** clueless.

I know the left have a charming naivety about them, but you lot really can’t think more than 5 seconds ahead can you? IT’S A TRAP!

Tease a corporation tax rise to impress upon the proles that corporations will do their duty and be responsible in repaying the debt, when in reality the likes of Amazon, mentioned here quite a lot, will have their tax affairs well in order to avoid this, while leaving businesses who after covid and brexit can’t afford to take up this slack.

If the tax rise is seen by the proles as ‘responsible’ then the next phase of responsibility falls on the proles. Cuts. Austerity. Its as clear as day. As mentioned further up the thread, I’m sure there will be initiatives, and schemes from the tories to make it look like they are ‘doing something’ to mitigate the job/business losses, but it will be pocket change.

The left unfortunately are showing their true colours, anything that isn’t ‘corbynite’ is to be hated, in fact your hatred of starmer is all you now have, because you’ve got f*** all left to say to the rest of us after the election of 2019.

It’s pretty obvious that we’ve got it wrong: just look how well Labour is doing.

Oh.

Cuts. Austerity. Its as clear as day.

Exactly. We should not be drawn into trying to use austerity when we are attempting to both recover from the pandemic, and pivot away from being part of a large home market to a small one increasing trade with distant markets. It would ruin lives. This is no time to be increasing Corporation Tax, or reducing Universal Credit… or any of the other “belt tightening” that falls between those two ends of an austerity drive. It will wreck us.

What copa said.

The left unfortunately are showing their true colours, anything that isn’t ‘corbynite’ is to be hated, in fact your hatred of starmer is all you now have, because you’ve got f*** all left to say to the rest of us after the election of 2019.

The left are showing the colours of believing in the things they always believed in, which the Labour party used to represent. It’s beyond parody that the right of the Labour party undermined Corbyn at every turn, lied about their intentions during the leadership election (and refused to admit where their funding came from), took the party way to the right with no consultation and expelled him from the party, and then have the nerve to still blame him for their own woeful performance.

I doubt I’ll ever vote Labour again tbh.

It’s pretty obvious that we’ve got it wrong: just look how well Labour is doing.

When they’ve lost seats that have been held for a few generations and handed the Torys an 80 seat majority, you can roll that one out.

I doubt I’ll ever vote Labour again tbh.

I’ll vote labour again when I see that they want to solve the problems in society which disadvantage  and disenfranchise normal working people. I see almost no evidence now that they want to do that. I still think the party and wider movement does, but the vast majority of it’s MPs and bureaucrats don’t.

FFS Lisa Nandy, supposedly the authentic voice of northern working people, doesn’t even understand how corporation tax works.

The corporation tax thing is daft

If only because corporations aren’t mega conglomerates that they’re portrayed as and possibly are in the mid of the hard left

Theres been a huge drive to push businesses to incorporate

75% of UK businesses are incorporated now

Of those 45% are single employee!

https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/business/activitysizeandlocation/bulletins/ukbusinessactivitysizeandlocation/2019

https://www.merchantsavvy.co.uk/uk-sme-data-stats-charts/#:~:text=As%20previously%20mentioned%2C%20at%20the,3.5%25%20from%20the%20previous%20year.

A corporation tax is madness if you want the economy to grow & recover, because its the smallest businesses that will be hit hardest

What Starmer needs to be explaining is that a corporation tax is just austerity 2.0
He should be arguing that a tax on the biggest is fine but for the bulk it is just punitive at the worst possible time

Sunak should be offering them loans and grants

It is all too easy to reduce everything to some Kang & Kodos-like twirling, twirling, but the stark reality faces us.

In the absence of a credible third party, we live in what is essentially a facsimile of the US Democrat/Republican dichotomy. So what does that look like in England?

It looks like the choice between a Tory faction divorced entirely from reality, or a Labour party forced to tone down its more radical energies.

This will never be a difficult choice for me, yet i do see that that is a real problem.

When they’ve lost seats that have been held for a few generations and handed the Torys an 80 seat majority, you can roll that one out.

I had assumed that you weren’t daft enough to equate criticism of Starmer with support for Corbyn.

Reasonably moderate Guardian article that ‘gets’ MMT – in a political context.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/28/the-guardian-view-on-madhouse-economics-tories-bet-it-makes-political-sense?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Corporation tax debate is a red herring.

No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.

I was chatting with a businessman round here about corporation tax rises and falls a couple of years ago and he smiled, looked at bit surprised and said ‘does anyone pay it?’ Someone said ^ it’s all a bit symbolic and this experience would certainly suggest so. IANAA. Companies House had him down as £100m in assets.

No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.

Which again goes back to my point that labour should be using the opportunities covid has presented to enliighten the voting public about how the economy really works. If they’re going to persist with opposing corporation tax rises, then say that’s because the debt incurred by covid does not need to be ‘paid back’, because it already has in the form of QE, but we need to address the fact that some have done very well out of the pandemic. Instead we get ‘it will have to be paid back, just not yet’, and ‘we have to be friendly to business’. Everything they say is 30 years out of date.

Did anyone catch the programme on R4 last night about (amongst other things) ‘patriotism’ and Labour?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000sgt1

Corporation tax debate is a red herring.

No it doesn’t need to rise to pay for things but yes over time it needs to rise for reasons of equality.

Spot on.

Did anyone catch the programme on R4 last night

Thanks… will listen now.

A good history lesson… with just enough modern context. Depressing, but well considered.

I had assumed that you weren’t daft enough to equate criticism of Starmer with support for Corbyn.

A daft conclusion to which to jump. But it’s no surprise.

I must admit I am now getting disappointing with Starmer. He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit and the tories mess and hammering them on it not hi=ding from the topic for fear of upsetting the racists. there is an open goal in front of him here and he just turned away from it.

I must admit I am now getting disappointing with Starmer. He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit and the tories mess and hammering them on it not hi=ding from the topic for fear of upsetting the racists. there is an open goal in front of him here and he just turned away from it.

I’m getting that way too. Unfortunately he appears to be properly terrified of the Red Wall Racists. Looks like ‘the B word’ will get the redacted treatment and he’ll bumble along ineffectually.

It’s looking like being a disappointment for the grownups.

He needs to be controlling the debate on brexit

Why would he want to ‘control’ a debate that almost no one but a few rejoin diehards wants to have? Staying away from brexit is the only thing he’s got right. It’s highly illustrative however that he seems to have a talent for pissing almost everyone off. Far from repairing the ‘damage’ from Corbyn he’s well on track to do even worse and lose more seats. I presume the centrists will use that as evidence they should be even more rightwing?

Hahahaha! And now it would appear as well as supporting Johnson at every turn, they can also copy his MO of doing u-turns when they realise they’ve f***** up. It’s laughably incompetent.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/01/labour-indicates-it-would-back-gradual-rise-in-corporation-tax

Why would he want to ‘control’ a debate that almost no one but a few rejoin diehards wants to have?

Labour will need to start at some point if they want to sweep up all the broken Leavers when we start gradually rejoining by stealth in about 5 years. It will be too late by 2030 when we are basically back in the EU with a reduced ‘say’ and all the ****s look back on ten years of pointless hardship – and finally grow up.

Dazh – the vast majority of the country now accept brrexit as a huge error and he needs to control the debate not to be labelled as a remainer but to hamnmer the tories for the errors and hardship they are causing

sweep up all the broken Leavers

You say that with such inevitability 🙂 . The pro-brexit vote was an unholy alliance between diehard tories and pissed off working/under class. What on earth makes you think either of these groups are going to start voting labour under Starmer?

the vast majority of the country now accept brrexit as a huge error

Do they? The sense I get is that the jury is out and will be for some time. I wouldn’t mistake a few pissed off fisherman and pig farmers as a consensus. I think the vast majority probably still think now as they did in 2016.

of doing u-turns

There is no u-turn … now is not the time to increase corporation tax. Longer term it is not just desirable, but inevitable.

Skim read this…

🚨How could tax help rebuild the economy after #coronavirus?

Today, ahead of #Budget2021, we've published our #TaxAfterCoronavirus report.

Find out more, including our recommendations to Government, here👇https://t.co/GYhCFidvK8 pic.twitter.com/YDmsoboWXh

— Treasury Committee (@CommonsTreasury) March 1, 2021

You say that with such inevitability

Well it’s either that or full fascism.

Ha, the corporation tax thing is the beginning of a new austerity narrative. “We’ve all got to pay for this sometime…just like your credit card bills folks…” And it’s a massive trap into which our ex-Corbynites are trying to walk straight into, because the chance to fire a few (what will be) ineffective shots at “business” is just too tempting. Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.

I think the vast majority probably still think now as they did in 2016.

Your second ‘think’ needs some kind of qualifier.

Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.

Yes, it’s definitely the left making the political mistakes.

What you seem to be forgetting is that plenty of ex-Corbyn supporters voted for Starmer. I suspect they’re bitterly disappointed with what they’ve seen so far.

Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.

They were never too good at seeing the massive elephant trap, clearly visible from space, with the flashing neon signs saying ELEPHANT TRAP and big arrows pointing at it.

Grandad spent 5 years trying to clamber out of the latest one he’d blundered headlong into

Starmer, when asked about his three priorities for government, replied “capitulation, capitulation, capitulation”.

What you seem to be forgetting is that plenty of ex-Corbyn supporters…

I don’t think you got what I meant by “ex-Corbynites.” But that’s ok. Possibly a bit on the subtle side for you.

I don’t think you got what I meant by “ex-Corbynites.” But that’s ok. Possibly a bit on the subtle side for you.

It’s instructive that you chose to ignore what I said. Possibly my fault for making another daft assumption.

Starmer, when asked about his three priorities for government, replied “capitulation, capitulation, capitulation”.

I think “appeasement, appeasement, appeasement” would be closer to the mark.

Too consumed with a desire to criticise the current leadership to not see the barely covered, gaping hole in the ground in front of them.

I was honestly optimistic about Starmer and thought he could be a good person to make Labour more electable. He’s been a bitter disappointment in every way.

with the flashing neon signs saying ELEPHANT TRAP and big arrows pointing at it.

Have you ever considered that instead of spending all their time looking for traps and trying to avoid them they should be setting a few of their own? It seems to me that if I were a politician, I’d be quite pleased if I managed to get the opposition to try and outdo me on my own principles rather than promoting their own. I’m afraid labour aren’t even in the same league as the tory operation right now. It’s like watching a 3rd round FA cup match with non-league journeymen against a premier league team, it’s no wonderr Johnson looks so smug.