Should I stay or should I go now…?

If I go there will be trouble.
If I stay it will be double!

TL;DR
Do I walk away from decent paying full time employment for a freelance gig-economy lifestyle?

I’m just shy of 50. Been working for basically the same company (lets call it co. A) since 1997. Its had its ups and downs but mostly good. Generally a great team pulling in the same direction to achieve top notch results.
Financially Co. A has been on shaky ground since 11/09/01, muddled through many things, but finally went pop when furlough ended in 2020

Co. C (does broadly similar, but lower quality stuff) bought the assets and the name and restarted Co A in early ’21 with a few of the old employees inc me. Since then Co. A has had massive staff churn, failed to win much work (although what we have done has been good and well received) and is now down to 3 people and as of last week have moved out of the central London office premises, to well, nowhere.

I got TUPEd to Co. B in the middle of last year to be a shared asset between A & C. Except C doesn’t really use me, only on a few big jobs.

To add complications to matters, I moved from London to Sheffield in 2011 and I’ve been working remotely ever since. Personally one of the best things I’ve ever done, professionally challenging, but we made it work. Co A was always London based and travel there was pretty easy. Co. B/C is in Bracknell and it’s a complete arse to get to.

Co. C is shambolic. Disorganised. Everything is last minute. On a personal level most of the guys are OK (but nothing more), but everything is understaffed and underresourced. The guy who owns it is a control freak and still acts like it’s a 5 employee company not a 50 one. All financial decisions including freelance staff payments have to be authorised by him. He goes on holiday – everything stops. He’s out on site driving a forklift (which he’s happy as Larry doing) – everything stops. As a result none of the middle management employees bother making decisions as he’ll just override them and suppliers are constantly hassling us for cash (including the freelance site staff who are my mates and who I’ve booked). I could go on for ages.

I get on well with the 2 guys at Co A that do the actual work, although they’re on a very short tether too as they’re mostly forgotten about and ignored.

There was a strong Project Manager (and my line manager) who was shared between A & C who made decent decisions and sheltered me from a lot of the day to day shit. He left in Jan and hasn’t been replaced . Since then, life has been pretty rubbish and I feel like I’m either shouting into a big black hole or desperately trying to pull stuff together at the very last minute, when it could all have been done in a calm and efficient fashion with a little more attention early on. This last few weeks has seen regular screaming matches with my monitor and a smashed mouse plus too many late nights trying to pull a project together that got sat on for 6 weeks by the boss. I’ve spent the last few hours trying to sort out a supplier payment for gear we collect tomorrow that I asked for last week, but the boss hasn’t authorised and he’s on site today.

So I want out. Great.

I’m not going to get the same (very niche) job as I currently do elsewhere in the country – certainly not at the same pay. (the whole move to Sheffield has always been something of a gilded cage in that respect). The similar jobs all want full time office presence, generally in the south east. **** that ****

Looking at jobs locally in different industries implies a 50% paycut for a similar. It was the (poorly researched) plan when we moved up north to switch careers and work locally. I managed a couple of informal interviews, all of which went well until they asked my current wage, at which point laughter. Might as well shelf stack in Tescos.

Or I go freelance. Nominally 10 days work a month brings in the same headline wage, but there’s an awful lot more travel involved (mostly at my own expense), it’ll all be site work – physical, long hours, poor working conditions, and I’ll be sat in the car for many hours more on top of my 12hr “working day”, as most of the work will be London/SE based. Travelodges and Premier Inns(at best). I’m also a step down the chain of control – I make every effort not to stitch my guys up; a lot of other companies aren’t so conscientious. Plus there’s the whole game of invoicing and chasing payments rather than just having a big wedge appear in my bank every month (this is a massive downside to me). Most of the freelancers I know in this situation got absolutely hammered over Covid.(and by companies like Co A folding owing them ££££)

The upsides are more time working with my mates, a broadening of horizons. Potentially some very cool projects to work on.
There’s many people across the industry who know me as a safe pair of hands, and I don’t think getting, at least some, work will be too difficult.

Financially I’m “OK”. Currently quite comfortable – redundancy paid off the mortgage, we don’t have kids and we don’t have any debts elsewhere, I have “some” savings. But my pension isn’t doing very much and my tastes and desires tend to the more expensive end of the scale (but generally in a limited range – outdoorsy stuff and related holidays, looking after the house & cars). I’m a bit funny about money though. Quite old-school, don’t do financial “risk” at all and I’m never comfortable spending unless I know its being replaced. Not having a fixed regular income will make me quite stressed, especially when clients fail to pay on time as they are wont to do. (genuinely the strongest tie to the current job is the monthly cash injection).
The missus is in solid, well paying, full time employment too, but I’m not prepared to be carried by her for either of our sake’s.

Talking it over with my parents was a didactic “you can’t quit without another job to go to”.

So what would STW do…?

Gods that’s long. Sorry!

TL:DR – go

Your mental and physical wellbeing is massively important.

You refer to companies A/B/C; how many others are there delivering the same (type of) product/service?

One option for you to consider is…list out your skills set, think about the market sectors which interest you, map which of your transferable skills would be of interest and relevance to those sectors and use that as a start point in a job search.

Use your contacts network.

Good luck.

I wonder if some on here can advise on the the money and freelance. I’d hate the glut and famin.

Can you set up nominal account with say 3 months of your current salary in it. From there start paying yourself a regular wage from that. When a client pays top up the account. At the end of the year spare goes in the pension. I realise this is smoke and mirrors but it might be easier psychologically.

Also talk to your wife. I’m sure you have. But I wouldn’t assume that she’d rather you were financially bouyant but away. I suspect the away could be quite a lot. It’s easy to say 10 days work a month. But in reality how easy would it be to turn down work?

I’m worried that should you choose to go, your employer will never make it to the end of your resignation letter. 🙂

Upshot, no-one here can advise you on your attitude to risk, it’s personal. Doesn’t sound to me like you’re entirely ready for the stress of freelancing. How about a different company or role rather than spending a third of each month in less pleasant working conditions and away from home?

How much longer do you want to work? Pension wise sounds like it will be some time. I’m 50 and not sure I could be bothered with the freelance thing now in my career. I have been lucky and have a good pension and a couple of years ‘cash’ in the bank. Would I want to be freelance without some cash in the bank in case of another Covid? What if I fall off my bike – currently get 12months full pay sick pay – your attitude to risk, not sure freelance is the route to go.

“You refer to companies A/B/C; how many others are there delivering the same (type of) product/service?”
There’s maybe 4 other companies that do exactly what Co A used to. They’re all London based.
There are no similar industry companies in Sheffield. There’s a few dotted around the other side of the Pennines, but the majority is around the M25.

“One option for you to consider is…”
I have a fairly diverse range of skills. But no qualifications to back up anything other than scut work.
Market sectors that interest me would be bike and outdoors industry stuff, all of which pay rubbish*. Mostly I want to do stuff “right” for the sake of doing it “right”; not driven primarily by money.

My contacts network (what there is of it) is all SE based and would want to use me on a freelance basis. I’m not a networky type and have always avoided that kind of thing like the plague.

*I got a job at Sonder literally 3 hours before being offered my old job back in Feb ’21. That 3 hours saw my salary exactly double.

“How much longer do you want to work”
The end of the week?

Last time I checked my pension, I might be able to drop to a 4 day week by the time I’m 70…
(although the pension calculator also reckoned I’d need a £40k+ PA pension to be able to afford the odd takeaway coffee)

I haven’t read any of that as it’s far too long but given a previous post where you were worrying about not doing work on your holiday then go.

Would you still want to be there in 5 years? 10?

If not then it’s time to leave.

Easy to say, hard to do. I wish you the best of luck. Sounds like it is going to be hard to leave.

If you give it a go, would it put you in a worse situation?

I’d leave. Life’s too short.

Do you keep in touch with the PM whom you liked? What’s he up to now?

“Would you still want to be there in 5 years? 10?”
If I still lived in London where I could pick up freelance work without all the travel I’d have left, no shits given, 18 months ago. The ability to get a salary sat at home, paid holiday, sick pay etc is what stopped me.

“If you give it a go, would it put you in a worse situation?”
I wouldn’t be able to reverse the decision, that’s for sure

you still there ?

not long and you’ll be dead (in the grand scheme of things ) get on with it man

i went freelance after a long time with a company it was and still is the best thing i ever did and once in a while i take on a job in the real world (building site ) to remind me how poo it was

Who says you have to work 12 hours a day?
If you’re self employed you set your day rate and the expectations of working times within that structure.
Charge less , but work less . So your hourly rate of say £30 doesn’t mean being destroyed by the end the week

Let me know what he does. Ain’t reading that!

“I’ll be sat in the car for many hours more on top of my 12hr “working day”, as most of the work will be London/SE based. Travelodges and Premier Inns(at best)”

Sounds like you need a stealth campervan-and-office.

If you stay it will be double

Have a good chat with your wife. She may be happy to support you as a couple if she can see your current job is grinding you down. And you should feel able to take that support if the alternative is working yourself into tiny pieces and an early grave.

From what you’ve said – wanting to do a job right, because that’s just how you should work – will either see you taken for a mug in some places, or properly valued in others. You need to find a new slot in the second type; might take a few goes though!

“Who says you have to work 12 hours a day?”

Thats the default on-site working day in this industry. A few enlightened companies do 10 hr days, but they’re rare. Day and a half is fairly common, double day not unknown. Telling a co that does 12 hr days you only do 10 does not make for easy bookings, as leaving site when everyone else still has 2hrs work left causes a lot of strife. (Or you just bump up to 1.5 day rate for the extra hours but then you’re more expensive than the rest)

Doesn’t mean every job is 12 hrs, some may be 2 or 3 hrs for the same day rate, but that’s how it works.

From my experience I would say go. I spent years raging because of a manager that was a living case study of how not to manage. Been a few months but I am calming down and enjoying life and work again.

I also crave a regular wage because of our situation and took a slight second choice job, but it’s great and I am learning new stuff. To go self employed in my first choice of role is close to gambling right now and get to hear about it from guys on site.

Doesn’t answer what to do next, but the value of getting out of a bad situation, beyond your control, is huge.

If your best mate had written your post, what would you tell them to do?

If you’re really stressed by it all (and it seems pretty clear that you are) is there an option to get a period ‘signed off’ by the doc ?

I know a couple of folks who did – strong, resilient people who I’d known and worked with for 20 years – where the constant bollox after a take over ‘fest eventually got too much.

In fact my Mrs a few years back too (different employer, same bollox) – she walked into the quacks office and they’d written a sicl note for several weeks off by the time they were sat down.  Then subsequently extended it.

That doesn’t solve the problem but at least buys some time to decompress and weigh up the options.

In all those cases they ended up leaving.  One had a job to go to, 2 didn’t.  All are defo in a better place now.

@JonEdwards probably not the advice that you wanted to hear but

my tastes and desires tend to the more expensive end of the scale

really aren’t important. One of the most freeing things I’ve ever done is get control of my outgoings. It’s allowed me to maintain a good quality of life whilst working in a sustainable manner. It’s also give me the freedom to be able to make better decisions about where and how I work.

It’s also been a lesson how much money I was wasting on things that really aren’t that important.

No direct advice for you on your career choice, but if you were prepared to cut your expenditure, it seems to me that a lot of your choices may be easier?

Quote

That 3 hours saw my salary exactly double

Quote

When that happened what did you do? Put all the extra in your pension, save it, spend it?

It’s relevant because it’s about how much you feel you need the income at the moment

A couple of things jumped out; you said “don’t do financial risk” yet “Last time I checked my pension, I might be able to drop to a 4 day week by the time I’m 70…”.

Seems you DO do financial risk…

Look on the positive side, you’ve no kids and own your own house so it’s not like you’ve to leave anything behind for anyone – add it’s value to your pension as you’ll be able to burn through that before you’ve gone.

Work-wise, no idea really except I’d have already had it out with the ‘boss’ if any of mine acted like that – and probably why I’ve been laid off +5 times already 🙂

Recently demoted I’ve discovered I’m much happier doing the job I know well, have lots of experience in, am earning more comissions, and much more in control of my free time.

Ive been offered a role in management to build up a business for another company, a replica of what I did 3 years ago.   Although it’s more senior and would look good on my CV, I’ve discovered being a happier minion is “better”.     (Although I can’t help thinking what a last throw of the dice might be like!)

The Ops situation feels intolerable to me.

@Kramer. Yes, definitely there are ways to shrink my outgoings, but equally I think I badly worded the initial comment.

I’m a big fan of the Sam Vimes “boots” economic theory and was pretty indoctrinated into “buy cheap, buy twice” by the original owner of Co A (left 2004). I’m still wearing clothes I bought in my teens (garden & car fixing only now) and my one pair of smart shoes cost a (still hideous) £180 in the early noughties; after property, my car is the single most expensive purchase I’ve ever made – its 19 years old, I’ve owned it for 15 of them and is past 200k miles. I’m saving for a replacement, but to get a close equivalent is £15-20k. I LOVE skiing. A world in which I couldn’t afford a skiing holiday each year would be a world in which I’ve failed. (we don’t do it the cheapest possible way – train is more £££ than plane, and the missus insists on catered as otherwise she doesn’t get the full holiday experience if she has to cook). One of The. Best. Days. was the first day on slope in ’22 having missed ’21. It was sublime. I don’t care what it costs – it just HAS to happen.

We have a nice house. That absorbs a fair wedge, but I mitigate a lot of that by doing as much of the work as I possibly can myself (same goes for looking after the car).

I don’t generally buy clothes (and if I do its on sale), we don’t go out much, we don’t have any subscriptions to Netflix or Amazon or similar (don’t have a TV either)

@ampthill
Not quite as simple as that, as I’d never actually started with Sonder! I’d spent the previous 6 months doing groundworks labouring, pulling in maybe £350-400 a week, which was hideous on many levels, but kept my head above water and covered a very minimal lifestyle – but then equally I was working dawn til dusk + travel time, so didn’t have time to spend stuff. Sonder would have actually brought in less as I would be paying for a 60 mile a day commmute 5 days a week. (I was hoping I could eventually do some WFH)

Currently I chuck just under half my take home into various savings, some of which gets transferred into pension once a year or so. There’s been some big domestic outgoings in the last couple of years – new roof; new bathroom – this only just finished. Both were expensive, but both I’ll be disappointed if they ever need touching again before I get carried out the house in a wooden box

@intheborders.
I’ve been paying into a pension since my early 20s.

But at no point has anyone told me “to get £this_much, guaranteed, per month when you’re 65, you need to put £that_much into your pension every month. It seems to be utter guesswork. The pot in my main pension is just over £100k. Great. What does that mean? I can stare at the stuff on the pension websites for hours without understanding it, and it all seems to come down to “it depends”. That just freaks me out, so I don’t look very often.

“Some” money is deducted from my paypacket every month to go into the new Co. C scheme, but no-one has ever talked to me about it and I have no idea whether its any good or not.

The only question I was ever asked about it was Low, Medium or High risk, so I said low, as risk has no place around money.

The other thing was pay pension, or pay off mortgage? We paid off a £260k mortgage in 16 years – we were basically putting in double every month what we should have been. Something has to give! I’m now firing more towards the old Co. A pension once a wedge has buult up in my savings account.

Similar situation, but my wife. I earn a reasonable salary in Higher Education, but my wife was working for a company that saw a number of managers leave, not replaced, or replaced by ‘contract’ staff. They all took on loads more work and responsibility, long hours, then was told 9 months later she wasn’t getting any pay recognition for the extra work/responsibility. A few other things went on too, but she went off sick with mental health. Move on a couple of months, and she then finds out she’s being possibly made redundant (the only person). Anyway she’s just signed a settlement agreement, and has gone working in a fabric shop on minimum wage just two days a week.

We don’t have any big outgoings, mortgage gone, older cars, but we can manage on my wage (two adult kids, one at Uni). You just cut down on fancy holidays etc. We did have a static caravan to fund, but that’s gone due to age/site license and we don’t want the massive commitment (£5k a year for ground rent and insurance).

What do you do OP – what could you transfer to other jobs. Your Mental Health is too valuable. There is alot to be said for less stressful work. My wife is loving the part time job, it’s also her hobby (bit like a biker working in a bike shop), and she loves not walking out the door with a laptop, then getting stuck in bad traffic.

Not sure i’ve completely understood why you moved to Sheffield, was it for outdoors, sport, family?

Could you re-locate back down South to somewhere less frantic, but closer to work, then look at freelance, but working 3-4 day week, and rather than constant travel for work and hotels, you could have time to take yourself on different outdoor adventures at weekends?

Friend is an asbestos surveyor, worked for same family company for years and liked it while father was in control, but he retired and son took over and company seemingly was there to fund son’s Porsche and golf habit, he has gone freelance by starting off contracting back to old company for some steady income initially, then gradually increasing his own work?

That last post seems odd to me.  If I understand it correctly you’re barely enjoying life to pay off a big mortgage on a nicer than average house?

seems imbalanced, especially if the mortgage size is forcing you to make more extreme employment choices to keep it going.

What’s wrong with ‘down south’ – asking for a friend 😉

“Not sure i’ve completely understood why you moved to Sheffield,”

Basically to ride bikes. We were both desperate to get out of living in London anyway. We were knocking up 20k+ miles per year in the car getting away from the place, having to drive every time we wanted to ride off road, or even get anywhere nice on a road bike. and the (poor) plan was that I’d transfer work to a local industry. (the missus did that a good while ago as her skills are far more obviously transferrable and she’s doing pretty well)

Sheffield is great, we can ride from the door, walk, climb. We’ve got good mates here and have made more. I can be in the woods in less than 5 minutes. We feel part of a community, both biking and the wider outdoors. We’re regular Ride Sheffield trail fairies and do further stuff with some of the land managers. Hell, at a really basic level we know who our neighbours are, which never happened in London. When I’m stressed I can get out on the moors easily and unwind. Its home.

Sheffield in some ways is the root of the problem, agreed – but there is absolutely no ****ing way I’m going back down south. Too much traffic, too many people, not enough space. Every time I get on the train out of St Pancras I breathe a huge sigh of relief and can relax.

“If I understand it correctly you’re barely enjoying life to pay off a big mortgage on a nicer than average house?”

Mortage is done and gone. I enjoy “life”; I don’t enjoy work – but I need to work to fund life. Yes its a biggish house for the 2 of us, but we both WFH, so an office each plus cellars for bikes and workshop (instead of a garage). Its the right thing for what we need, its home, and I want to be here until I’m carried out in a wooden box.

Pre-covid, work was much less of a problem as I was working with good people who wanted to do things well and its the loss of them and that attitude which has changed the balance.

Sheffield in some ways is the root of the problem, agreed – but there is absolutely no ****ing way I’m going back down south. Too much traffic, too many people, not enough space. Every time I get on the train out of St Pancras I breathe a huge sigh of relief and can relax.

I can see your point there, I lived in London and the Guildford area, then married a Norfolk girl, thought i’d hate living somewhere without mountain biking, but i now love it, little traffic, amazing sandy beaches, plenty of off road cycling, just not proper trails, good pubs and made some great friends here….

I’m not really sure I’m following…… you’re mortgage free but still making employment decisions based on money?

I’m not sneering or anything here, but we are in the same position (mortgage and kid free, although we’re mid to late 30’s).  We’re currently surviving on my wife’s salary…. decent enough but not a higher rate tax payer.  I can’t seem to square you saying that you won’t be able to drop to a 4 day week until you’re 70 (I get that you were exaggerating)….I could literally retire now as long as my wife kept working 🤣

In a mortgage and kid free situation, I’d be minimising work stress over prioritising financial reward.  It does help though that I am a skint flint personified!

Jesus, that’s a relief, I thought Joe Strummer must have died.

Definitely go if you have a half-decent alternative.

I’m not really sure I’m following…… you’re mortgage free but still making employment decisions based on money?

but how do you not? The only reason to work is the money.

There’s 2 things in life you can’t have enough of – time and money. Work is about exchanging time for money, pretty much everything else is about exchanging money for time. If you want to spend time doing cool stuff (“having adventures” as a catch all phrase for me), you need to have money to do them, and it’s always much better to be looking at it than for it.

I could literally retire now as long as my wife kept working 🤣

where as I’d be out on my ear if I tried that! My money is my money. Her money is her money. And as a matter of personal pride, I won’t take charity from anyone.

I’m confused now as well.  Lives frugally, no mortgage, enjoys the location….   Pause while you look for a more comfortable employment situation that can be located where you are rather than going from the frying pan into the fire?

It appears you have the nice position of not be tied to a financial income by debt to support you whilst finding something you love to do.

The pot in my main pension is just over £100k.

Will give you a pension of about £2.5k per YEAR…

I never worried about paying off my mortgage (early) – to quote my Dad, “inflation paid my mortgage”.

But I did max every pension I could pay into, and ensured I took the most matched contributions I could get.  As a higher rate tax payer most of my working life the tax benefit is worth far more than any interest I could’ve saved paying off our mortgage early.

My suggestion is to go freelance and get a gig as a copy writer, paid by the word …

I think we clearly have very different views on money and work life balance, so I’m not sure that I’ve anything else to add.

Just for clarity, I’m not retiring! I’m currently part way through a masters, hoping to go on to a funded PhD in October, with a view to a future career in environmental sustainability of some sort.  The beauty is, that in the first instance I can afford 4 years on a PhD stipend (essentially minimum wage!) and secondly in the future I’ll be able to find a career that I love rather choosing one based solely on income.  With the caveat that I will be aiming for something more than minimum wage!