RE: The terrible events in Paris and elsewhere

that’s low, jambalaya

I am not sure anyone in Raqqa can be described as an innocent. I would take the view everyone there is an IS militant or sympathiser, someone choosing to live in and support the Caliphate

Nonsense. Almost nobody would choose to live in a war zone or desire to. Whatever ‘support’ ISIS have among normal people is nothing more than people being morce scared of the Shia nutters than they are of the Sunni nutters.

Can you not see the difference between attacking combatants or civilians?

Even the most casual of searches online on drone attacks reveals that civilians are often mistakenly killed, or sometimes targeted by accident. If you live in parts of the middle east, Pakistan and Afghanistan, there are drones silently circling above you all the time, watching and armed, and you could be blown to bits in a moment without knowing about it beforehand. That’s pretty much the textbook definition of terrorism.

i just cant help but think that someone somewhere in the french/british government knew what was about to happen but would allow it to happen, but only after trying to soften the blow with some news about one individual in particular whose actions recently has morally abhorrent.

The jihadi John rubbish was pure press nonsense but to suggest that it would be announced to prepare for Fridays massacres for political purposes is just prosperous, why not just accept that some aspects of your religion are incompatible with current western values and accept it plays a large part, though certainly not all, for the current mess we are in.

why not just accept that some aspects of your religion are incompatible with current western values

for the “n”th time, this isn’t about religion, it’s about terrorism, it’s a group of like minded individuals reinforcing each other’s persecution complex, a group mentality, bring violence to a belief system it will be violent, bring peace and it will be peaceful.

There are Buddhist monks killing Muslims in Myanmar, are you going to say that Buddhism is incompatible with Eastern values? No, of course not.

Even the most casual of searches online on drone attacks reveals that civilians are often mistakenly killed, or sometimes targeted by accident. If you live in parts of the middle east, Pakistan and Afghanistan, there are drones silently circling above you all the time, watching and armed, and you could be blown to bits in a moment without knowing about it beforehand. That’s pretty much the textbook definition of terrorism.

Oh right yeah, you’re right the Paris attacks were fair enough then. 🙄

Oh right yeah, you’re right the Paris attacks were fair enough then

Of course they’re not, what a ridiculous thing to suggest. The Paris attacks are hateful and should be rightly condemned, However, we must be prepared to accept then the hypocrisy of using the very same tactics as those we seek to condemn, against equally defenceless civilians.

wrecker

Oh right yeah, you’re right the Paris attacks were fair enough then.

He’s not ****ing saying that though is he? Is it impossible to comprehend that someone can be appalled by the attacks in Paris, but equally appalled at the idea our taxes are being used to rain hell down on some faceless anonymous brown people. Evidently it is for some.

Because history is very easy to read backwards.

There was a 6 car crash on the M4 around J11 this morning. Maybe if the car had been confiscated last night they wouldn’t have been a crash. Then you could confiscate every car with a similar risk (that would be all 20million or so in the UK). Similarly there are millions of nutters in the world, finding the one that’s about to do something horrible is the impossible bit. There may have been little more evidence this was about to happen than any other murder.

After the event it’s very easy to go an arrest all the other known nutters who have given them a lift, been on holiday with, sent money to/from, had phone conversations with, etc. Hence we’ll probably see tens (hundreds?) of arrests in the coming days and weeks because there’s now something to link them to.

I would take the view everyone there is an IS militant or sympathiser, someone choosing to live in and support the Caliphate

Based on what, exactly?

molgrips

Based on what, exactly?

Stupidity, ignorance and easy racism I imagine.

Hence we’ll probably see tens (hundreds?)

French police carried out 168 raids last night

Jambo, if

I am not sure anyone in Raqqa can be described as an innocent. I would take the view everyone there is an IS militant or sympathiser, someone choosing to live in and support the Caliphate

then you have to accept that to Daesh, no-one living in London, the seat of our * adjective* government, is innocent. Do you think that everyone in London should pack up their bags and go, leaving their homes, jobs and schools?

The ordinary people of Raqqa have enough to put up with, without a threat of more Western terror.

Of course they’re not, what a ridiculous thing to suggest. The Paris attacks are hateful and should be rightly condemned, However, we must be prepared to accept then the hypocrisy of using the very same tactics as those we seek to condemn, against equally defenceless civilians.

Except “we” don’t seek to harm civilians. That’s a pretty big difference. The actual equivalent would be dropping a bomb smack in the middle of Kabul or Islamabad, but we don’t so it’s not comparable.

wrecker

Except “we” don’t seek to harm civilians. That’s a pretty big difference.

That must be of great comfort if your wife, husband, son or daughter are blown up.

During the attack on Bagdad/Baghdad French and German TV crews reported the clearance tactics used included throwing grenades and shooting blind into any occupied building. The result was high numbers of civilian killed and maimed including women and children who were shown and interviewed. There are pages of YouTubes posted by American veterans to confirm the kill everybody tactics. Comparable.

I can assure you that WE did no such thing edukator, and neither did the French. So not comparable really.

wrecker

I can assure you that WE did no such thing edukator, and neither did the French. So not comparable really.

Do you think people in Iraq have a good ear for accents? Do you think they get the binoculars out when they see an Apache to try and read whether it says RAF or USAF or do they run for their lives? Impressive how you’ve managed to police the actions of every British service man, and strange that you can’t see how people on the receiving end of the freedom dished out by the co-coalition of the willing don’t care to differentiate who’s killing them.

I can assure you that WE did no such thing edukator, and neither did the French. So not comparable really.

Memories are long.
Our record in Mesopotamia is far from unblemished.
As for the French, the Algerians living in the banlieus might have told some stories to their middle-easern neighbours. Check out Mr Churchill’s attitudes to foreigners with regards to poison gas and delberate starvation.

British war crimes in Iraq among other places.

That’s your evidence of room clearing civilians? Seriously? Did you read it?

It’s a whitewash.

The ICC won’t investigate if the British deal with it. How cosy.

No it’s the fact the British, tortured and killed civilians by various means.

Except “we” don’t seek to harm civilians.

I wish I shared your belief. The very first drone mission killed 3 people, at least one was an unidentified civilian. The General in charge at the time suggested that while the were sure he was an appropriate target, said (And this is an actual quote) “we don’t know for sure who it was”. recently a DoD file suggested that unless you could definitely prove they were civilian, ALL men between 16-45 were to be listed as combatants.

A child in Pakistan recently testified to a senate committee that he was happiest on grey days as that’s when the drones couldn’t fly which eased the tension for Everyone in the village.

The drone programme operates in countries where we,haven’t declared war (Yemen for instance) and when asked by CBS news the CIA couldn’t say exactly how many innocent Yemani people had been killed, to many, that’s the face of the US in their country, there is a Pakistani news channel that has daily updates on the numbers of casualties caused by drones.

An ex US defence lawyer recently suggested that drones were “A licence to kill anyone, anywhere in the world, any time, on secret missions with secret evidence controlled by unknown individuals with no oversight”.

But don’t worry we don’t “mean it” when we kill grannies, or make children scared of blue skies. I’m sure they understand.

Are you american? I’m not, what the US does is nothing to do with me, so I don’t feel the need to justify or apologise for what they do.

wrecker – Member

Are you american? I’m not, what the US does is nothing to do with me, so I don’t feel the need to justify or apologise for what they do.

Are you currently overseeing the UK’s Reaper Drone missions too Wrecker? Are you personally making sure no civilians are vapourised from above?

Or are you just blind to the fact that britain bombs and kills with impunity just like it’s partners in crime.

What about the British cluster bombing of Basra, Wrecker. That caused hundreds of civilian casualties and was controversial at the time, are you prepared to apologise for that?

British break rules of war

Are you american? I’m not

me neither, but I’m sure the folk in Yeman, Pakistan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Warizistan, and so on and on, are making the distinction with the nasty US drones kill un-numbered and un-named civilians, whilst our drones only ever target the real terrorists and enemy. So we’re probably free from reprisal attacks from those folk, right?

Just like many on here who lazily equate “Muslim” with “Incompatibility with western ideals” I’m pretty certain young men from all over the Mid East probably just see “westerners” and could probably be justified in tarring us all with the same brush/reaper drone.

The mission that killed Mohammed Emwazi, was a joint mission was it not? 1 UK controlled drone and 2 US controlled. Are we making sure that on those missions we aren’t targeting innocent civilians, and we’re not just killing the people that US intelligence assures us are the correct targets? How would we know, we never get to see the evidence, the missions are secret.

why not just accept that some aspects of your religion are incompatible with current western values and accept it plays a large part, though certainly not all, for the current mess we are in.

you mean like Anders Brejvic and the Ku Klux Klan to name but a few?? what about the slaughtering of Muslims in Burma by the Buddhists? what about state sponsored terrorism such as what is being carried out by Israel??

religion does not kill people…..people kill people.
they then choose to cowardly hide behind religious or political ideology in a futile attempt to justify their actions

Just like many on here who lazily equate “Muslim” with “Incompatibility with western ideals” I’m pretty certain young men from all over the Mid East probably just see “westerners” and could probably be justified in tarring us all with them same brush/reaper drone.

So both are justifiable then? Or neither justifiable? Which one?

http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/letter-to-daily-mail-gives-excellent-explanation-of-war-with-isis–lkdXgHvQrg

So both are justifiable then? Or neither justifiable? Which one?

You are conflating what I’m saying, but just for the avoidance of doubt. I am suggesting that it is perhaps “justifiable” or “understandable” that young middle eastern men just see “westerners” rather than a careful distinction between what the UK does, and the careless actions of the UK’s “Closet Ally” the U.S.

It is neither justifiable to kill people in a theatre with an AK47 OR to kill a man who you are sure is a target and yet at the same time “Don’t know for sure who he is”

@Moses – I agree with your post entirely. Daesh think anyone living in Paris, London etc are legitimate targets.

@gonzy, yes saw that earlier. The fact is ISIS do not claim responsibility for acts they don’t carry out, the IRA was exactly the same. The commentator’s thinking is very much on the “wishful” end. I think you have to recognise that any message of “lets just ignore them and they will go away” isn’t going to gain any traction and is open to mis-interpretation. I appreciate the viewpoint but that is not what is going to happen for very sound reasons.

Hollande today repeated the language he used on Friday, this is a war. He was also quite clear to say the operation was panned and funded from Syria. The rationale is obvious, this backs up his response of sending more equipment. He has announced full border control and police powers which will run for 3 months minimum (possible due to state of emergency and war footing) and additional aircraft and an aircraft carrier to be dispatched to the regions.

You are also correct (as per the letter) that the Middle East is furiously complicated and historically riven with conflict.

.003% seems like a made up number, the best and most comprehensive report on attitudes in Islam is the 2013 Pew report http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

I’m not suggesting for a moment that the majority of Muslims are at odds with life in the contemparary western world, I don’t believe they are however the scale of Islamist/Extremist attitudes in the world is often underestimated. It’s not sensible to maintain the position that this is a tiny group of people it simply isn’t. It may be a tiny group who are prepared and equipped to commit horrors of the type we have seen in Paris but behind them are a much larger group of enablers. Most governmental and academic studies suggest that at least 10% of Muslims globally have at least some attitudes that are significantly at odds with western values so 150 million people ish.

Hollande today repeated the language he used on Friday, this is a war. He was also quite clear to say the operation was panned and funded from Syria. The rationale is obvious, this backs up his response of sending more equipment. He has announced full border control and police powers which will run for 3 months minimum (possible due to state of emergency and war footing) and additional aircraft and an aircraft carrier to be dispatched to the regions.

so immediately after the event on Friday Hollande publicly stated that this act of violence was carried out by ISIS….what, did someone from ISIS phone him up or send him an e=mail to confirm it??
if the French authorities knew straight away who was responsible then there’s a good chance they knew it was going to happen….they either didnt know which individuals specifically would carry out the attacks or they knew and allowed it to happen as it would allow them to declare a state of emergency/war and allow them to increase border control, police power and surveillance of its citizens and ultimately give them the justification to proceed with military incursions into Syria

interesting videos, thanks Gonzy

Just like many on here who lazily equate “Muslim” with “Incompatibility with western ideals”

Funny because the muslims I know are educated and successful professional people who are very good at both making money, and providing a good lifestyle for their families. If that’s not western ideals I don’t know what is. The thing they don’t share with western culture is going out and getting blind drunk and making an arse of yourself, which we can probably agree isn’t really a cultural trait worth going to war over. I have far more in common with my muslim friends than the ignoramus Britain First idiots who wear their ignorance and stupidity as a badge of honour.

The government (understandably) cannot get their heads around the fact/deal with the fact, that they are up against an ideology.. It doesn’t have a central point to go and kill (like a Hollywood villain lair)..its an ideology that is internalised anywhere on the globe…and then secular groups perform their own acts….it’s pretty scary really…