Railing corners on a hardtail?

I have a little bit of a cornering obsession – I practise figure of eights and loops and slaloms on my BMX (and the MTB occasionally) on my commute home and in the loading bay or on the rooftop car park when I have a rare quiet moment at work. Anyway, I’ve been attempting to improve my ability to really load the bike into big corners, like how you see DHers squish the bike into the ground.

As I don’t have a full sus bike this is quite challenging because on the one hand I’m trying to push the outside pedal into the ground hard for maximum grip but on the other hand I have to keep that leg soft as (bar the tyre) it’s my only my rear suspension. Much as I’d like to add a nice FS bike to my assortment of bikes I don’t have the money and I wouldn’t know what to choose anyway (though a Yeti ASR-5 looks nice as a do-all-that-I-do single bike solution…) Any technique ideas/hints/thoughts/etc?

Apologies for talking about riding bikes in here! 😉

I could be wrong as cornering hard+confidently isn’t my forte (so interested in this one also), but I think the outside-pedal-down thing isn’t as always as good as outside-at-4.30pm with weight balanced on both pedals, bike leant more than you are, hips facing into the corner. Like a switchback position but less exagerated.
If the bike’s clattering about (edit, ie not a railing kind of corner like a berm) this position feels better for catching slides (can drop weight onto outside only fast if needed) and being better triangulated / balanced over the bike or able to shift around to keep balance. From that position I feel more able to get weight lower, higher, fore-aft etc as I’m not balanced on one leg with the pdeal moving as the bike bounces about. If it’s smoother and faster, I think outside foot down is the way that feels most natural still.

😐

get yourself down to a pump track and try out your techinique there

here’s and example

http://mpora.com/videos/km6LFJAMP

I wish I had a pumptrack nearby – I was going to build one last year but haven’t had the time to get things rolling. However I’m not sure a pumptrack is the answer – they’re too smooth really. I’m thinking of dealing with that situation when you’re going as hard as you can around a naturally formed dirt berm and but there are roots (and the odd loose rock) across it so the bike needs to deal with the bumps without being kicked drastically offline.

Scott, you race DH on a hardtail don’t you? What do you do? If I can get my head around the bigger jumps I’d love to get a full-face helmet and have a go at the local races on my hardtail – that last one at PORC looked great fun! Want to see how I can handle that rock garden at race pace…

For me the biggest difference to my cornering speed has been activly/ positively looking at or for my exit point. I’m almost exaggerating a “heads-up” the rest; steering with hips, push steering I do almost unconsciously anyway.

As for keeping the rear tyre on the ground, like James, I weight the o/s pedal slighly rearwards but I’m ok with a bit of slide or bounce.

Same technique on any bike – pedals level, hips and head pointing at exit and PUMP!

Think about unweighting the bike before the corner and cramming all of your weight onto the outside pedal as you hit the apex.

I am no cornering expert, but the idea of weighting and unweighting the bike has make a big difference to my ability to corner fast.

Practicing ‘cutties’ and drifting is a great way to improve cornering.

I feel I may be offering advice to people who are already much better riders than me – but I find the whole exaggerated heel down, brake levers angled higher up thing helps here.

In this position even though you are pushing the bike into the ground, your body position on the bike means your knees bend naturally to soak up the bumps

adstick: Pedals level?

I’m learning that with a berm/banked-bit on the corner, one doesn’t need to stand entirely on the outside foot as there is more cornering grip than you think. I still haven’t cracked switching lead-foot confidently.

I’ve been practising the speeding-up figure 8 thing recently as a training drill – it’s fun!

greeble – Member
get yourself down to a pump track and try out your technique there

How does breaking wind help with the OP’s question?

Bails – yes! The old ‘outside foot down’ is great to rescue you, but in general and especially if you want to ‘rail berm type corners’ you should be trying to keep the pedals level. Watch any of the new school WC riders for a demo.

Not a cornering expert by any stretch, but i’ve been riding long enough to know what works for me. With that in mind, I don’t think there’s a common technique that works best for every corner. Most corners are different and what follows a particular corner also has a bearing on what technique I would use. Pedal position, body position, trail position all change depending on what’s before and after a particular bend.

For rooty corners, i’ll try to pump into the turn but go light in the middle to help skip over any rocks/roots and then pump on the way out if possible. Almost like treating the corner as a jump where entry is the take-off, the ‘air time’ is the middle/apex and the exit is the landing. Obviously if the exit is rough and the entrance is smooth i’ll be going light that bit later or earlier if the entrance is rough and the rest is smoother. If it rough the whole corner through, i’m concerned more with a line that slows me down the least.

I still have a bad habit of going into corners too hot on unknown trails. Slow in fast out was my motto when riding motorbikes, but they have an engine to help, if you **** a corner up. I get annoyed at myself if I into a bend too slow and come out the other side realising I should have hit it harder.

Agree with the point about looking at the exit. My berm cornering has improved no end by simply keeping my head up looking to where I want the bike to come out.

That will teach me for not reading the original post properly.

Railing a flat corner which is rooty and rocky is tricky. The idea when railing a corner is to lean the bike over, set an edge and follow the corner round.

This differs from from riding a berm where you can pump the berm to gain speed.

I’d say that riding corners that are bumpy is more about line choice than ‘railing’.

Yes, I’m not talking about berms but about attemping to pull G on flat corners – I understand on a full-sus you can compress the suspension down into the apex so that it almost launches you out of the exit as it unloads, and rely on the suspension to deal with smaller bumps, but obviously it’s different on a hardtail. I was Jedi’d earlier this year and I’ve been working on stuff from Mastering Mountain Bike Skills and Teaching Mountain Bike Skills (the new detailed basic technique book from Lee McCormack).

Lee breaks corners down into two basic types – major corners where you drop your outside pedal, set an edge and twist your hips and look round the corner, and slalom corners where you keep your pedals level and your head and body straight and throw the bike from one side to another beneath you (big oversimplification with possible errors in explanation). And then it’s a question of mixing and matching techniques to suit real world corners.

go on a skills course with a teacher of a good standard.

The technique for berms may be different as you’re more perpendicular to the ground so lateral grip isn’t an issue, But it was pointed out to me on my skills course this year that for cornering on flatter ground I thought the point of the outside pedal down technique is to enable you to lean the bike over into the bend while you keep your body more upright to keep your bodyweight directly over the point where the tyre contacts the ground to improve the tyres lateral grip. Having the pedals level makes this more difficult and compromises lateral grip. I’ve been practicing this since my skills course where my poor cornering technique was pointed out to me, as i was trying to keep the bike upright and lean my body into the bend! and when you get it right it feels great and makes you feel you can push much harder into bends. The technique in terms of your leg movement and body shape is similar to skiing.

I was thinking about this as I rode briefly this afternoon – re-reading what I said earlier, hopefully I ride better than I decribe how I ride..
Pedal position seems to be linked to how much I’m weighting the front – I don’t lean on the front much and have pedals level-ish at the same time, it’s an either-or. (edit, so that agrees with the post above)
So fast/flat or slow/steep are different, as is weavy-flowy S-track corners. Hard to think as you ride and describe it imo.

Mmm right load of different styles there
I’m trying to copy Fabien barel
Plenty of stuff on you tube
Keep running out of extension lead and talent ..lol

Looking out of the corner is a good’un as it not being fixated with outside foot down – remember riding BMXs as a kid? I’m pretty sure I didn’t worry too much about where my feet were – it just happened.

But the best advice is to get lower (staying relatively centred) on the bike with ‘baggy’ knees and elbows. Lower centre of gravity = greater stability = potential higher cornering speed.

Come to think of it, getting lower is about the single best ‘one-step’ to better riding.

Is your saddle up? Otherwise is there a reason why you can’t bend your knee?

Since I started riding clips I’ve realised both feet up is the best way. Outside might be a bit more dropped but not totally as it allows the bike to move and you have a platform to pump on.

Soft knees and feet up for me.

hopefully I ride better than I decribe how I ride..

I find it hard describing actions too. There’s usually a lot going on, but most of it doesn’t register as it’s a muscle memory thing. It’s only when i make a conscious effort to change what I do, do I have a slight clue what i did (does that even make sense? 😀 )

I had a look through some of my old footage and found (what I think) is the type of corner we’re talking about – flat and bumpy and open. I’m on my full sus but i don’t think i’d do it any differently on the HT.

Not really sure what techniques i’m using here (a bit of everything maybe), but is seems to work ok. My outside foot is down on entry, then i appear to level the pedals out as I go through the corner, ready for whatever is next.

Saddle dropped, knees bent, looking towards the vanishing point. I guess I’m getting down to the minutae of technique and I suspect a video would paint a thousand words. Euro, thanks for your vid! I’m thinking generally tighter, slower and a greater angle of turn – there’s a particular trail in my local woods that sums it up, which is relatively flat with corners where you might turn through 90-180 degrees and due to the shallow gradient if you can carry speed round those corners you’ll get down it a lot quicker (Van Halen, you might know it, it’s the third from last bit of singletrack on the final Big Dog descent, before it crosses a fireroad and gets quicker and straighter).

Hey Coach ep1[/url]

Whilst this is a light hearted look at cornering technique and not HT specific, Darren Butler from endless biking is one of the, if not the best coach in the industry IMO.
Ex BBB guide/coach and journalist at large Seb Kemp is also an enourmously talented coach and one of the most versatile and capeable riders I know.

Have a looky looky, it might help 🙂

Blame the tyres, haven’t you learned anything from STW yet? 😉

Are you talking about Downhill for Girlz? Or rather the bit that feeds into it?

Given the conditions at the moment up there and the fact that you’re no slowpoke I reckon the answer is just to do more but specifically on bits of the trail you want to improve on. Have someone video you and analyse yourself objectively. You know more than enough theory, to get from consciously unskilled to consciously skilled you need to be fully aware of what you think you do and what you really do and how these pair up.

As you no doubt have experienced outside foot down on rooty corners is a dance with death at times. Try and set up outside foot at 6, keep your posture (from your hips up) set there but then lift your outside foot to 4.30/7.30 to give you a platform to pump and adjust.

I like FB’s ‘helbow’ thing and the dropped heels.

See you out there 🙂

Bearback, I hadn’t seen that before – I like the ‘screw yourself into the bike thing’, neatly ties together the ‘turn your hips’ and ‘get low’ techniques. Herman, I’ve seen that video before and remember it making me depressed at how much he could drop his heels! I can’t get close to that with my good ankle and with the Ti pinned one there’s no hope… However, it’s good to watch it again. And yes, the section before Downhill For Girlz – I named it Rail The Roots on Strava because that seems to be the key to it!

Since I saw Jedi I’ve been working on triangulating between inside hand and outside foot and leaning the bike whilst keeping body more upright but it’s a slow process – the lack of grip in current conditions is forcing me to use better technique so I don’t end up a frustrated winter rider, slowly mincing through the mud. Regarding the other coaching/skills day suggestion – I have tons to work on from my last session, I’m just working on details, as the devil is in them.

One overwhelming thing I’ve noticed is that I’m too damned inflexible – when I twist my hips for a left hand corner I can feel the muscles and whatnot up my back and side resisting. More stretching! Still, my core’s not as weak as I thought based on that plank thread… 😉

I think this relates to this: http://www.leelikesbikes.com/dh-riding-style-moto-vs-mtb.html#more-2579

as does this: http://www.leelikesbikes.com/benefits-of-full-suspension-if-you-know-how-to-ride.html

Blame the tyres, haven’t you learned anything from STW yet?

The Rubber Queen 2.2 UST BC are pretty bloody awesome but I wouldn’t say no to a Baron 2.3 UST BC on the front for this mud (when they finally appear…)

I’m wondering if I should ride a bit more moto style in these greasy conditions, weight the front and bludgeon through with the rear just following.

Do so few people on here actually ride around corners at speed? Or is everyone so busy choosing their next bike that they don’t think about how they ride their current one? 😉

I just read this article on ‘skimming speed’ – I think it explains why it’s proving so hard to rail rooty corners in the wet and mud as I’m bumping into the roots more than I was in drier conditions:

Skimming over obstacles

I know the trail you mean chief. There is one very rooty corner on that one which you may be thinking about. With that one I find I get best results if I enter the corner very wide, which means I’m actually turning before I get to the roots. I then able to clear the roots in a more or less straight line.

Some of us don’t over-analyse how we ride around corners…

Whatever I do, seems to work for me (regardless of the bike – rigid, hardtail, full-sus, road….). Never had tuition, so not needed to ‘think’ about it too much…

Kinda seems like you’re over thinking it a bit.. as my mate rich says, “just rev the fooker” which i think still applies to push bikes 😆

Your point about flexibility is key as it’s your range of motion and bodily travel. The more you can accomodate for the bike moving unpredictably, the less of an issue it is. Corners and roots IME/nerdy reading appear to be opposites in terms of physical requirements:

Corners; leaned bike, tyres and weight crammed into the ground, pumping wherever possible (rider heavy).

Roots; upright bike, bike light, rider light.

Lee’s page is interesting and simplifies the process but I think the bigger issues are the lack of traction combined with roots all over the bloody place!

I keep reading about people running close to 20psi tubeless, you were around 28 right? A bit of air released could give an immediate short term gain. I have a bit more time to ride again, we should catch up for some geeky cornering practise.

Overthinking leading to lack of commitment? If you’re conscious that you’re working on it, is tension coming in leading to por weight distribution?

What i have to say on technique for what you’re analysing, treat it just the same as any other FLAT turn, ie drop the outside crank, not necessarily pushing on that pedal, but the foot is going to be weighted, there’s any pushing to be done, it’s towards the ground, not outwards. Body vertical, bike leaned, both knees slightly bent just like the normal upright position.

The biggest thing id say for muddy/rooty flat turns, is not to be erratic with the shift in body weight. You get put on your arse for fast, jittery shifts in weight distribution, keep it fluid, slow and controlled.

The big dog descent is pretty much all natural berms from the amount of use. For defo – Feet up and ride it like a pump track. Love it. Wide line/hop for the one root.

I’d agree with tim, if you can ‘pre turn’ and straightline the rooty apex on that bend it helps a lot.

Like the skimming speed piece – the science behind ‘the faster you go the smoother it gets’….

tim, yes I’ve sussed that line out for that corner – and I think the other key point is to go as fast as possible whenever approaching these rooty sections so the bike skims over the bumps. I should add that I don’t often think about what I’m doing when riding the trails, but afterwards I’ll often think about any particular segments where I either wasn’t keeping up with someone or had someone hard on my tail – I know I can’t expect to be faster than everyone but if someone is quicker I like to work out why so I can get quicker! herman, I’m running lower pressures in the wet and mud, about 20/24 F/R. When I find some spare time we shall have to hook up and see if we can make each other corner better – some daylight and videoing would be useful…

Van Halen, I’ve been thinking about your ‘feet up and ride it like a pump track comment’ – a few rides back I wore contacts rather than glasses and noticed it made me more confident about my line choice and better at looking ahead. My guess is that having useful downwards peripheral vision rather than just shortsighted blur meant that I could subconsciously confirm I was riding the right line – and when you’re relying on the natural ruts to create a berm the difference between using the berm and pulling some G and being off over the edge, losing grip and sliding into a tree is only a few inches.

Not sure about moto or MTB style body position – will have to practise with both and get a feel for how to move fluidly between them as conditions change. Gut feeling is that the looser and slippier it is, the more moto-style will suit, the rougher it is the more MTB-style will suit, especially with no rear suspension.

I know to many it probably seems like I’m thinking too much but I’m not a natural sportsman – however I’m quite good at self-coaching. I’m not a brave rider but once I’ve worked out how to do something better then I’ll commit to it on the trail, turn my brain off and get into the flow. Not dissimilar to how I learnt how to play bass years ago – lots of thinking and practising but then when it’s time to rehearse, perform or record, it’s all about letting go and making the groove happen.