@kerley… nah, clearly not worth engaging with you… it’s all been laid out clearly by others already… but you’re just ignoring them .

I am not getting teachers out of teaching jobs, saying they should leave or telling them they are lucky.

I’m amazed by the people who come out of the woodwork on here to slag off the people educating our children when they get less than inflation pay rise but seem to have amnesia when it comes to us bailing out large parts of the private sectors with public money.

All the teachers I know work ridiculously hard, not a job I envy at all.

Worth every penny they earn and more (IMO).

We don’t need corporate drones, AI or it’s close alternatives will cover that crap fairly easily or it can be outsourced, What we need are people who can thinks and learn along with people who can do.

What we we need and what we want are different and no one will give you the same answer depending on what you expect the result of the education to be.

do you want it to prepare people for the workplace?

For many (probably most) this is just the ability to follow basic instructions. Much like a drone. seriously that is what my company wants to employ. Turn up follow the instructions get the task completion metrics up.

there need to be a few dysons but not so many.

do you want it to create society of well rounded people with maths, language, general science and knowledge of the classics etc.?

if so I think we be fecked…

I would like to think we want the latter but in a “results” driven market it does not provide a neat measurable output…

do you want it to prepare people for the workplace?

For many (probably most) this is just the ability to follow basic instructions. Much like a drone. seriously that is what my company wants to employ. Turn up follow the instructions get the task completion metrics up.

I think you missed what I was saying there, that workplace will be short lived, how far from automation are those tasks?

What happens when those tasks don’t need a person, should we be charitable about doing them? Should they be punishment tasks? Should we work out what people should be doing. Not to hit the cliche/buzzword but we are entering the 4th Industrial Revolution at the moment. Take a look at what happened in the last ones.

The simple shipping container cost 1000’s of jobs in some places and created 1000’s elsewhere the mundane just do it jobs on the docks could be done with only minor supervision these days.

I’m amazed by the people who come out of the woodwork on here to slag off the people educating our children when they get less than inflation pay rise but seem to have amnesia when it comes to us bailing out large parts of the private sectors with public money.

Is this your first public sector discussion on the internet or anywhere?

I think you missed what I was saying there, that workplace will be short lived, how far from automation are those tasks?

Examples would be stanard instructions for designing, manufacturing or maintaining something.

Think Haynes manual but for everything. The idea is that you can have IKEA style instructions for any task or process. Anyone can then do said task with very minimal initial instruction and no common language is required.

As no formal training is required these people are cheaper. You don’t need a room full of MIT grads to follow engineering instructions A level is fine.

examples of tasks that will be automated could be factory assembly lines but ones that can’t could be the people coming round to replace your gas meter.

I work in an engineering company of more than 100000 and the engineering is probably less than 10% and the rest is work instructions…

once automation hits there will be limited need for people to do anything.

if goods/food are made, packed, delivered automatically all people need to do is consume. Mind you by the time that happens we will be beholden to the companies or states that control the flow of said goods/produce.

Sometimes I think teachers get themselves into little bubbles with the other teachers and don’t realise that compared to many they are in well paying jobs with good benefits. Sure they work hard and the job has it’s pressures, so do plenty other jobs that come with similar salaries and working hours. Maybe they need to take a look around them at what others do to realise they might not have it as bad as they think.

once automation hits there will be limited need for people to do anything.

They’ve been saying that since the invention of the wheel, still hasn’t come to much.

The industrial revolution just created a whole new set of jobs.

I doubt it will be different with the very much hyped rise of AI (most of which isn’t AI at all).

There was a interesting article last WE in one of the papers about non-AI AI start ups. Rather than spend tens of millions developing the AI you just outsource the AI bit to humans in India working 12 hour shifts, which allows you to road test the concept to see if it has a market. If you get that far, then you can start developing the AI to replace the humans….

All the teachers I have any contact with are superb.

Many I work with a thoroughly shit and we are lucky to have them because when they leave we struggle to replace them with anyone better.

Education in the UK today is breathtakingly inspiring compared to the dull and ineffective education I was provided with a generation before my kids.

Thats true, but it could be so much better if we could retain good people.

Convert, I think its him cant be bothered to scroll up so sorry if mistaken, always says that private schools are more demanding and he works harder. This seems totally at odds with what all the people I know who have jumped from state to private say, and that is lots of people over the last 15 years…never see any move the other way either, apart from the odd shit chancer trying to squeeze out another job.

The ultimate goal is for us not to work, right?

robots, computers, AI, self driving cars are developed so we do not need to do these tasks and can live till 100 dicking around on tinterweb

there is of course an element of trolling here but what is the end desire?

Sometimes I think teachers get themselves into little bubbles with the other teachers and don’t realise that compared to many they are in well paying jobs with good benefits.

Not at all they’d just like a payrise keeping with inflation.

Not at all they’d just like a payrise keeping with inflation.

And being teachers many can understand the different types of inflation and see housing costs rise disproportionately to wages… well anyone should see that…

You need to practice your trolling cornholio it’s too obvious.

Convert, I think its him cant be bothered to scroll up so sorry if mistaken, always says that private schools are more demanding and he works harder. This seems totally at odds with what all the people I know who have jumped from state to private say, and that is lots of people over the last 15 years…never see any move the other way either, apart from the odd shit chancer trying to squeeze out another job.

Twas me. But I said longer hours not harder and more demanding.

Genuine offer – come visit for 24 hours and do a day here to get a feel for what it’s like. I’ll get you in with the department of the subject you teach. In return I’ll come to you. I think it would do us both good.

I work in education but in a university so a sort of pseudo-charity-NGO-quango-fiasco and teachers deserve a pay rise way more than I do, or most people I’ve ever come across in the private sector. And this isn’t even a pay rise, it’s a minor offsetting of the real world pay cut they’ve been getting for years.

Divide and rule works but I don’t know why some people are so keen to be divided and ruled, or why people who’re not happy with their own lot dedicate so much ire towards someone that’s doing 3.5% better. Why not get angry at the shiteheel government that’s responsible for all this?

Genuine offer – come visit for 24 hours and do a day here to get a feel for what it like. I’ll get you in with the department you teach. In return I come to you. I think it would do us both good.

I’m sure my head would be overjoyed to give me a day off to go and see if the grass is greener elsewhere!!

I’m sure you do have longer hours but its more supervision and saturday sports stuff? I wouldnt want a job at a boarding school. I like my weekends with my family. I am slowly coming round to the idea of a job at the private day school my Mrs works at.

Why not get angry at the shiteheel government that’s responsible for all this?

Could it be that there is an undercurrent of understanding that if we want a better service we need to pay for it?

if we want good services and people to have a living wage we need to accept that for the majority to have more it might feel that individually we get less.

That is a tough sell. Try telling people that they have enough for their needs and should share so that society becomes richer. Overall the government generally does what the people want or at least will accept

Just checked my payslip online.

A whopping £67pm in hand payrise. 😂

if we want good services and people to have a living wage we need to accept that for the majority to have more it might feel that individually we get less.

That is a tough sell.

From a government who found £5m to police a Trump visit nobody wanted, £1bn for the DUP, £400 Million in one year on Brexit planning, another £900m next year plus heaps more I’m sure nobody can call it a hard sell for all those things, close to £2.5bn quid there which could easily have gone into lots of things.

It’s all excuses and causing division though, it’s only going to get worse.

I am looking at about £65 a month before deductions….whooop whooop…new bike in 5 years time!!

I can wholeheartedly agree that well paid and motivated teachers, and other Public Sector workers, are vital to our country.

However, they really aren’t doing themselves any favours by banging on about it being ‘about time too!’  that their pay is getting better pay rises.

As lots have said already, many in the private sector have only seen pay freezes or pay cuts (me!) over the last five years.

Why not just quietly take the continual pay rises, fantastic pensions (in comparison to overall private sector), extremely high levels of job protection and let the rest of us get on with Keeping our jobs and hoping for an improvement in our financial situation.

I am looking at about £65 a month before deductions….whooop whooop…new bike in 5 years time!!

We all need our ambitions.

I’m sure my head would be overjoyed to give me a day off to go and see if the grass is greener elsewhere!!

I’m sure you do have longer hours but its more supervision and saturday sports stuff? I wouldnt want a job at a boarding school. I like my weekends with my family. I am slowly coming round to the idea of a job at the private day school my Mrs works at.

Could sell it as a TES article – two mountain biking teachers from different worlds compare and contrast….My head here did a similar article with a head from a tricky comp- quite a good read.

Not all supervision sadly but some of it is. Lessons 0830 to 1730 Monday to Friday and academic lessons 0830-1300 Saturday. Compulsory in your contract running activities twice a week until 2030 then a night a week supervising on the a boarding house until 2300. 4 weekends an academic year when a department will have an ‘all in’ weekend (sat pm and all Sunday) where you put on extra coursework or revision/catch up sessions for the students who do your subjects. Insets are all in the holidays or on Sundays. Reports that go home on all the kids you teach or tutor every half term. There are positives – full time teachers with no responsibility reduction only have 22.5 hours academic teaching a week max (plus a bit of pe, cover and tutor times etc) and classes are smaller (20-22 for a core subject at GCSE, 10-12 for an A level group). There is also free food 3 times a day and more coffee to keep you going than you can possibly drink!

I am a realist, I remember what it was like. There is a reason I am here! Huge respect to those that do it. But it is factually correct that I worked more hours annually a year as a grommet here than I did as a grommet previously. I am now a housemaster – that’s another level again.

nah, clearly not worth engaging with you… it’s all been laid out clearly by others already… but you’re just ignoring them .

Not ignoring anyone, people are just not getting my point or maybe just ignoring what I am clearly laying out.

I would pay teachers more and I would also lower their workload by having more assistants and other staff.  Poor education is why we end up with things like Brexit.  I would also completely change the education system so people are taught more useful things for the majority of people that would be of more use in later life rather than just learning something irrelevant so it can be tested, again with a basic understanding of politics, immigration, economics there would be no Brexit but that is another topic.

I still know (having known teachers who have done it) that many of them could leave and either get a less stressful job for the same money or a job just as stressful for more money – IF it was about money.  You may not agree with that but hey ho.

Yeah and what they announcement basically said is that the majority get a pay cut, to reduce that cut money will have to come from budgets so not resources go down too.

Most have said it’s not just about the money but don’t confuse that with the idea that they would have preferred to not have year on year pay cuts.

I am set to get 1 % non consolidated rise for the 4th year running as a non popular public servant so 3.5 would be good. I do enjoy the job but it takes the piss really and we no longer have an incremental system as per NHS etc. Difficult to compare what I do in the private sector but my mates working as self employed builders, tree surgeons are getting a lot more as are those employed by a large local engineering company and I considerably more qualified.

Turns out it is only a 3.5% rise for 40% of teachers:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jul/24/majority-of-teachers-face-below-inflation-pay-rise-despite-boost

 Could it be that there is an undercurrent of understanding that if we want a better service we need to pay for it?

What if we’d be happy with a significantly worse service?

What if we’d be happy with a significantly worse service?

Make a placard that says Pay Cuts for Teachers, Worse Education for Kids and take to the streets or if you want to keep it quiet vote tory

What if we’d be happy with a significantly worse service?

Some people without kids might be quite happy with no teachers or education service or with the introduction of a pay per use system…

many people would be happy with a worse service as long as it is not them getting it…

 many people would be happy with a worse service as long as it is not them getting it…

Halving the bin service wasn’t the end of the world. It’s the perfect model for all other services.

Does anyone think that public sector pay rises might lead to higher pay for private sector workers as firms have to increase their costs to compete for staff?

At worst it makes no difference at all and at best it leads to you (in the private sector) getting a pay rise. But low paid private sector workers object to low paid public sector workers getting a small, below inflation, pay rise because they might not have had a small pay rise either.

This divide and rule rubbish means we make ourselves poorer rather than risk seeing somenody else get a bit of a percentage point more than us.

I think you missed what I was saying there, that workplace will be short lived, how far from automation are those tasks?

What happens when those tasks don’t need a person, should we be charitable about doing them? Should they be punishment tasks? Should we work out what people should be doing. Not to hit the cliche/buzzword but we are entering the 4th Industrial Revolution at the moment. Take a look at what happened in the last ones.

The simple shipping container cost 1000’s of jobs in some places and created 1000’s elsewhere the mundane just do it jobs on the docks could be done with only minor supervision these days.

The MOD have essentially just shat on the idea of fully automating frontline combat aircraft with the BAE Tempest. That seems to be quite a big statement that AI just isn’t ready yet.  So whilst I’m not sure that there is going to be a total wipeout of jobs, I think roles will change – education should be setup to, as you rightly point out, support that.

I would pay teachers more and I would also lower their workload by having more assistants and other staff.  Poor education is why we end up with things like Brexit.  I would also completely change the education system so people are taught more useful things for the majority of people that would be of more use in later life rather than just learning something irrelevant so it can be tested, again with a basic understanding of politics, immigration, economics there would be no Brexit but that is another topic.

Add critical plus evidenced based thinking and epistemology to that.

Should we pay a nurse less if they live in Hull for doing the same job? Where do you mark out the North South divide? Do we expect massive shortages on one side of the line and a glut on the other?

Less than where? But yes, why would you pay all nurses outside london the same rate when the cost of living is very different.  The logical solution would be to allow each trust or region to set its own rates.  They might need to pay more to get people to live/work is a bad area or they might need to pay more to get the people they want in expensive areas.

Every industry pays according to the local conditions. To set a value on a service in one location then apply that to the entire market means there will be winners and empty positions

 To set a value on a service in one location then apply that to the entire market means there will be winners and empty positions

Right so how do we fix this?

As I  understand it there is a company that does all the market research. Could be the Hays guide (not the recruitment company and possibly spelled differently) which defines the pay bands for each job/grade/exp level.

If this is used then the job role salary and benefits (healthcare/pension) would be equivalent to the public sector. Stops the divide and rule if everyone is in the same boat…