Property market – renting & buying. Madness!

I don’t think that there are any windows in that house that the average person would be able to see out of (without a step ladder).

That would be a horrible way to live.

Yup, that’s pretty much why we didn’t buy it.

Ooh I’ve got a gun against lovely young people’s heads. Three years as a deck hand in the North Sea pulling 18 hours shifts bought mine. If you want a job with no sleep, high chance of death or severe injury give us a shout, free pistol if you survive to shoot the unfortunates. Onwards the revolution.

Think I read somewhere in the Week (likely cribbed from elsewhere) that what is needed is a property tax rather than purchase tax – currently downsizing is expensive due to stamp duty (ignoring holiday or not), but if property itself were taxed at similar rates to US (google says between 0.2 & 2%) then it would encourage downsizing and act as dampener on house price inflation.

If we could all get together and buy a chunk of Syria I hear it’s pretty warm and they have good MTB trails 😂

Isn’t it the normal way in Syria just to get a load of mates together with Kalashnikovs and RPGs and take what land you fancy! 🙂

currently downsizing is expensive due to stamp duty

Eh? Stamp Duty is paid on a purchase, not a sale.

Eh? Stamp Duty is paid on a purchase, not a sale.

unless you’re planning on living out of your car once you downsize, you’ll have to buy another house?

Yes i know a few elderly people living in family houses on their own. They won’t move out as the house is full of memories and the stamp duty on downsize say 10k, and they don’t know they ‘ll be alive in 12 months time so why bother.

The govt really do mess things up when they meddle.

A property tax would get things moving but I well remember the poll tax riots.

Remember quite a few friends parents losing houses back in day.

Yep – I very nearly bought in 1991 when a £40k mortgage was £450 a month. Translate the same rates over the same term for a mortgage on the average house price now (£230k) and you’d be looking at something north of £2,700 a month.

unless you’re planning on living out of your car once you downsize, you’ll have to buy another house?

So factor the Stamp Duty in as a cost of purchase, like everyone else does.

There are two reasons for most downsizing:
– practicality (i.e. can’t manage a bigger property any more)
– releasing cash

Neither of these is affected by having to pay Stamp Duty (you could say releasing cash is, as you release less as you have to pay the Stamp Duty, but you don’t release any if you don’t move)

i know a few elderly people living in family houses on their own. They won’t move out as the…

There’s a woman up the road from me, lives on her own. She has the audacity to drive around in a car with five seats several times a day, and doesn’t even drive for Uber. Worse than that, the car sits empty and unused 23 hours a day. The heartless bitch.

On our street people arrive in their 40s and go out in a box.

A property tax would get things moving but I well remember the poll tax riots.

Careful what you wish for.

Can you afford 2% of property value, serious money.

Despite everything we’re still in a position where demand out strips supply and people would rather live in a ‘good’ postcode in a new box rather than a 100 year terrace that needs a bit of work.

Bought my 1921 terrace for 143k 4 years ago and just finished fixing it up. 1 year of ‘solid’ evening work followed by 3 years of the odd week DIY. I can get to work in 5mins on my bike, walk to Lidl in about 4, Sainsbury’s in 5, most of my mates in walking distance and most importantly trails are a 20min ride away. Mrs walks to work in about 20mins. When my car blew up in January I just laughed and scrapped it

I will have my mortgage (100% loan when I took it out 4 years ago) completely paid off in 7 years thanks to constant overpayment

I would like a more private garden and a garage but the prospect of having no mortgage way before I’m 40 is very attractive

Very glad I didn’t mortgage myself up to the limit on some shitty newbuild or city property to be honest

Ooh I’ve got a gun against lovely young people’s heads. Three years as a deck hand in the North Sea pulling 18 hours shifts bought mine. If you want a job with no sleep, high chance of death or severe injury give us a shou

Paid my dues in West Africa and Former Soviet Union states for mine.

Older Colleagues dad did his in South Georgia as a whaler for 2 years…..

There are ways and means but it’s sad that it’s come to that if you want to put a stable roof over your family’s head due to the “ladder” and property only going up.

Phoned the EA to be told there was a same value cash offer from one of their regular buyers and that we could probably push for more as they are buying up property in the area.
We are sticking with the first guy.

We’re selling our flat and trying to buy a house at the moment, and for what it’s worth it’s because of people like you that we are in with any sort of chance at all. We put an offer in on a place that was on the market for all of 3 days, it went to sealed bids and we were up against 2 cash buyers (we have first time buyers lined up behind us as it were), and the impression we got from the agent was that they went for us because they wanted to support a family who are trying to ‘do what they did 10 years ago’.

2% property tax would clear me out so even I would join the protests.

The ladies on their own in family houses clearly want to stay, problem is they are family houses on the doorstep of top schools in sw London, and with 3 spare bedrooms each, and people are sleeping on the streets. Clearly there needs to be an incentive to move. They ‘re well into iht territory but it’s too late to downsize and gift the money away as there isn’t 7 years left.

That’s the thing, if you’re very old in a family house with no mortgage and a good pension. Could you be bothered with all the hassle of downsizing when you have loads of room for when the family comes and stays?

As above, we’ve been tempted to upsize a few times but resisted and quite happy now we have decided to stay. No extra stress of a larger mortgage and hopefully retirement will come sooner.

I really do not what the answer is. I assume inherited wealth keeps banging up deposits coupled with large mortgages inflates prices.

I’ve thought a crash would come for a while but I don’t think it will as home ownership is a national obsession in this country.

We’re selling our flat and trying to buy a house at the moment, and for what it’s worth it’s because of people like you that we are in with any sort of chance at all. We put an offer in on a place that was on the market for all of 3 days, it went to sealed bids and we were up against 2 cash buyers (we have first time buyers lined up behind us as it were), and the impression we got from the agent was that they went for us because they wanted to support a family who are trying to ‘do what they did 10 years ago’.

I didn’t realise this was a thing and reading the few stories of it on here has kinda given me a nice feeling

Fair play to anyone doing that, what a great thing to do knowing what a hassle buying & selling is

That said, someone working full time and saving a deposit for a roof over their head having to depend on someone’s kindness just to sell them a house is pretty nuts

THINK POSITIVE!

If I could find a 100% remote role, I’d be up in Scotland right away.

Compare…

Comparing somewhere that’s an hour on a train to the centre of london and somewhere that’s a drive to the ferry, an hour on the ferry and an hour on the train to the centre of glasgow, where the last ferry home is 6pm for much of the year (8pm on a summer weekend), is a false argument. Ferry fares every time you travel, overnight stays every time you want to fly somewhere or miss the ferry. Arran has a lot going for it – but comparing to to Maidstone is like comparing Miami to Alaska.

That’s also offers over, now I don’t know what the market is like in Arran but a year or two in the West end of Glasgow decent flats were going waaaaaaay over the stated offers over price.

I wouldn’t be surprised if nice places in the countryside are doing the same now.

Yep – I very nearly bought in 1991 when a £40k mortgage was £450 a month. Translate the same rates over the same term for a mortgage on the average house price now (£230k) and you’d be looking at something north of £2,700 a month.

I just put a 230k mortgage through one of those online calculators and it came out as £1091 p/m

That’s also not far off the 1991 mortgage when accounting for inflation.

What am I missing here? Genuine question. No deposit,  25 years.

There are not enough bungalows to downsize. We have a big 4 bed house with only my son left at home who is just about to buy. I have been looking at smaller places but the typical bungalow is almost as expensive as our house so we are more likely to stay put.

I just put a 230k mortgage through one of those online calculators and it came out as £1091 p/m

Your comparing record low interest rates to record high rates.

His point was the average house price today at 1991 mortgage rates would be crippling…..as it was back then

Our house story is a little different to the norm…

Met MrsRNP when she was renting an awesome converted industrial building (The Garage) off a mutual friend, ended up moving in with her after awhile and absolutely loved living there for a few years until mutual friend came back from his travels.
I was starting to work overseas which helped us save for a mortgage deposit. Rented a house in the meantime. After a year or so the landlord wanted to sell and offered it us cheap as sitting tenants. This was 2000 and cost us £52k (£10k undervalue).
Renovated it and sold it 2016 for £163k.

Long story short but rented a house and dumped our money into buying cheap commercial properties which we cleaned up and flipped on to developers over a few years for a decent gain.

Last week, after 25years of waiting we bought for cash ‘The Garage’ where we first met.

I appreciate that graft in shithole 3rd world countries for months on end, luck, kindness and listening to MrsRNP and having a leap of faith got us where we are.

I have had many sleepless nights though.

I live in a new “Executive” home. Agree it’s not particularly big, but we picked a house that would suit our lifestyle. It’s a 4 bed, size wise, yeah could be better. The below isn’t my town but it’s the same house about 15 miles away.
https://bloorhomes.com/developments/buckinghamshire/winslow/winslow-grange/the-berrington/plot-124
I’d have preferred an older property. But price, availability and location made us buy the new build. It’s easy to say “who buys these homes”, but I have to live where I live. As an example, here’s a 3 bedroom older home in my town.

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/74716431#/

My gran downsized. Went from a 4 bedroom house with big garden to a wee 2 bedroom. She was 90 though and couldn’t keep up with the big house. My grandad had died too.

New house was literally 20 yards away, across the street! The lady who stayed there had spent shitloads doing up the kitchen and installing a wetroom in the previous 12 months then got ill and had had to go into care sadly. Meant my grany already knew her new neighbours!

I believe it was revenue neutral to move.

As I was saying before, my flat in Edinburgh has supposedly gone up 17% this year. Was bought in 2000 for £72k and was valued around £235k last year, so would be about £260k now? Absolutely insane! And I’ve only ever put £10k into it, redoing the bathroom and kitchen and a new boiler – that’s in 20 years. No big repair bills and have made plenty cash renting the second bedroom out over that time.
Brilliant for me, but totally unsustainable on a society wide level.

Your comparing record low interest rates to record high rates.

His point was the average house price today at 1991 mortgage rates would be crippling…..as it was back then

Exactly – the rates back then were eye watering.

Your comparing record low interest rates to record high rates

But that’s where we are. One of the reasons for spiralling house prices is low interest rates. The headline price of a house is much higher but the monthly cost is not miles away.

But that’s where we are. One of the reasons for spiralling house prices is low interest rates. The headline price of a house is much higher but the monthly cost is not miles away.

But even modest interest rate increases will make many mortgage repayments very difficult, just like in the late 80s/early 90s

I live on a nice street in Huddersfield

Every nice street in Huddersfield has a really shit one approximately two streets away though. I grew up around there so I’m allowed to slag it off 😀

Last week, after 25years of waiting we bought for cash ‘The Garage’ where we first met.

I don’t know why but this has really cheered me up. You old romantic RNP. Good on you

Your comparing record low interest rates to record high rates

But that’s where we are. One of the reasons for spiralling house prices is low interest rates. The headline price of a house is much higher but the monthly cost is not miles away

I think it’s worse now.

Looking back and comparing, the monthly cost may be comparable. that’s one way to look at it.

But back then there may have been 14% interest but there was also 14% inflation which was diminishing the effective size of your loan. It was ‘short’ term pain, and riches galore* a decade later.

Now the monthly cost is still hard to bear, but it’ll be like that for 30 years. And if you’re saving you get below inflation returns on your savings. So you get further behind.

It was bad then. It’s worse now.

I don’t know why but this has really cheered me up. You old romantic RNP. Good on you

Thanks!
This building does mean a lot to us and one of the reasons ‘our mutual friend’ sold it to us along with a million other planets falling into alignment.

Sockpuppet +1. House price inflation has outstripped wage inflation for many years now. Ultra low interest rates, increasing lending multiples from historic x 3 main earner wage, increase in mortgage terms to 30+ years; these are all just tools to try and keep the monthly payments affordable. Logically at some point these measures will run out of steam, but there have been people saying that for a long time, it hasn’t happened yet.

Your comparing record low interest rates to record high rates.

His point was the average house price today at 1991 mortgage rates would be crippling…..as it was back then

That’ll be it

but there have been people saying that for a long time, it hasn’t happened yet.

I can remember people saying exactly that in the mid/late 90s. On the one hand, it doesn’t seem like it can be sustainable. On the other hand, if you wait until you are in a healthy position to buy and prices had corrected to what seems reasonable.  I’d not have bought yet and be in a far worse position.

But even modest interest rate increases will make many mortgage repayments very difficult, just like in the late 80s/early 90s

But you can get a 10 year fixed rate mortgage. By then you’ll have paid off a chunk of capital. Even if rates go up that doesn’t mean your monthly outgoing will.

I think it’s worse now.

Looking back and comparing, the monthly cost may be comparable. that’s one way to look at it.

Yes there are many different ways to measure it. I believe as proportion of outgoings its actually cheaper now than 10 years ago. And going back 30 years things were far more volatile so just as likely to get worse, not better.

I suppose my point is there have always been issues with the housing market and if you are considering buying putting it off until things improves isn’t a great plan. There has been an interest rate rise and a house price crash predicted by some for more than 10 years yet here we are

Another route but I’m not sure how viable it is nowadays is the interest only mortgage and adding equity. A work colleague and friend bought a £300k do-er-upperer and has grafted his absolute arse off for 15+ years. He had it valued at £850-900k leaving them with £400k ish for a final ‘forever’ mortgage free home.

Either way houses require graft – you either work hard to pay the mortgage or work hard to add equity/value

Property tax forget the fact that properties (and areas) change in value, or people add value by working on their property or there income changes. Its an incredibly unfair tax. The value in your property you live is meaningless, you have a house, a place to live, that is its value. Realising its value means selling the property.

Houses are expensive, but this is not a UK unique problem. Its pretty common in most parts of the developed world outside rural areas. I think there should be more long term rental options, lots more local authority housing (the selling off with out replacing of LA housing was one of the biggest mistakes in housing).

Other side of it, is because everyone is moving to Kent, Wales etc; my brother and his BF currently live in a 2 bed flat on the 33rd floor of a flash development with views over the London Eye, parliament etc, for £800 pcm less than it would normally rent for, as expensive city centre flats were emptying fast. They had a choice of I think ~25 flats in that development when they moved in September. They have decided to make the most of it whilst the prices are so low, before moving on.

Whereas our house on the rural edge of Leeds looks like it might have gone up £60k in the last 4 years based on the recent sales around us!

Bloody hell. This thread has just prompted me to get an estimate of our house value just out of interest…the mid range estimate that doesn’t even account for the significant redecoration / refurb we’ve done values it at £70k more than we paid. This was our first house as a family (3 bed link detached) but there’s no way I’d have been able to afford today’s price. Madness.

I suppose my point is there have always been issues with the housing market and if you are considering buying putting it off until things improves isn’t a great plan. There has been an interest rate rise and a house price crash predicted by some for more than 10 years yet here we are

+1

I bought my first at 21 and in +35 years have bought/sold half a dozen plus lived in a few rentals when between houses/divorce/working-abroad. TBH I/we have pretty much just ignored the ‘market conditions’ and bought/rented when we needed to, helped of course that I/we have always had a decent income.

Never actually lost money, in an obvious way, but one house bought in the late 80’s sold a decade later for barely more than we paid for it (after +10% interest rates).