Project 5 watts per kg.

Lighter without losing muscle. Thanks Alex, that was my plan.

Anyone following this my first proper ftp benchmark is going to have to wait a week or two. The cold I had has turned into a chest infection.

How are you going to measure your FTP OP, Tools wise, and 20 mins, or 1 hour?

New numbers are impressive indeed! I can’t get on to weightweenies quickly to stalk check when the old numbers were from but I can guess you weren’t slow then either Alex 🙂

I have wondered for a while if this kind of Project is something which could showcase the likes of Torq- ie how far can you take an average Fred with the right knowledge an an above average focus on riding from the participant. Bit risky perhaps from the coaching side and requires a lot from the participant but would be interesting nonetheless 🙂

Those are quite old numbers Just saying and lighter without loosing muscle, my current threshold is around 5.5/5.6 W/kg, I also don’t want to hi-jack the thread with the physiology of XC

It would probably make a fascinating thread in its own right if you had the time 😉

Torq coaches average joes all the time.

Not usually with a target like that in mind.
It’s usually “to get better”. Unless they are already elite level, then it’ll be 5.5, 6 W/kilo etc.

Going from Fred to 5 is a whole different kettle of fish.

5 to Fred is fun though. 😆

New numbers are impressive indeed! I can’t get on to weightweenies quickly to stalk check when the old numbers were from but I can guess you weren’t slow then either Alex

I have wondered for a while if this kind of Project is something which could showcase the likes of Torq- ie how far can you take an average Fred with the right knowledge an an above average focus on riding from the participant. Bit risky perhaps from the coaching side and requires a lot from the participant but would be interesting nonetheless

I will say that especially in MTB racing, numbers are just a small part of it, take for example your 5 minute max power, one may have a large one, but If they can not be repeated near it, then its not all that useful in racing, ie take the national course this weekend at Dalby and the main climb, you need to be able to get up it fast 6/7 times not just once.

The best measure of performance is performance it’self.

And there is a mixture of other factors, which is why XC Physiology really interests me.

It terms of seeing how your average fred would go, It would be much safer in the labs, can do a genetic screening as this will determine certain aspects, ACTN3 gene for example has a large amount of literature on it. normal performance testing would give a degree of what they are/would be capable off.

I will say that especially in MTB racing, numbers are just a small part of it, take for example your 5 minute max power, one may have a large one, but If they can not be repeated near it, then its not all that useful in racing, ie take the national course this weekend at Dalby and the main climb, you need to be able to get up it fast 6/7 times not just once.

The best measure of performance is performance it’self.

And there is a mixture of other factors, which is why XC Physiology really interests me.

It terms of seeing how your average fred would go, It would be much safer in the labs, can do a genetic screening as this will determine certain aspects, ACTN3 gene for example has a large amount of literature on it. normal performance testing would give a degree of what they are/would be capable off.

Happy to turn up to a Lab and have someone tell me if this is theoretically possible.. would be very interested to know?

Torq coaches average joes all the time

Guilty.

My journey over 3 years with them is slightly complicated by the fact that I was more interested in my 12hr+ power for the first 2 years (3w/kg)

Good luck, I’ll be watching with interest as this is something I’ve been debating with myself lately. I’m not aiming for anything this high because I simply don’t have the hours spare, but what hours I have I ensure I make the most of them. For this very reason I use the Carmichael Time Crunched training plans and they work well for me.

Over the past year I’ve been able to up my power output but I’m struggling to lower the weight; but part of the later is my inability to give up beer completely (have reduced) and not willing to diet, just eating healthy meals made from scratch, no processed meals, and I am now actively reducing portion sizes. Current target is to lose 4kgs (5%) weight, a very realistic goal for me.

For me it’s all a life balance, I want to race like a pro but with work, family, house, etc, being a pro isn’t ever going to be real 😆

just eating healthy meals made from scratch, no processed meals, and I am now actively reducing portion sizes

If you are doing this then look at reducing GI of your meals.

For me it’s all a life balance, I want to race like a pro but with work, family, house, etc, being a pro isn’t ever going to be real

Going from Fred to 5 is a whole different kettle of fish.

This was more what I was getting at when I said it would be interesting to see how far an average Fred could go with a smart, solid effort but not an all consuming, unsustainable effort. I guess, how far can the right knowledge, being smart and being consistent in your riding take someone? Or kind of linked, can a bang average person realistically, physiologically reach the goal of the OP?

I guess the most successful way to meet the OP’s goal and enjoy life is start at 6.6w/kg and then start having a life 🙂

Anyway OP, I reckon if you did want to make decent progress then the like of Torq coaching and testing would be crucial as it would be an even more monumental task by yourself

Cut for a body builder (not weight lifter, my mistake) is to show off the structure of the muscles. i.e. make the skin, erm, skin tight

I used to know a lad who competed at bodybuilding

When he was cutting he said he used to carry a couple of emergency biscuits with him when he went out anywhere (and tried to avoid doing so at all) – every now & then he’d “bonk” just walking down the road 😯

(course, all the insulin & shit he was using during training prob didn’t help)

So first check in. My weight has levelled out at 81kg nicely and I’m hoping to have that reading 70something very soon.

Just did my first ftp test using trainer road software (highly recommend this, it’s really good)…

Managed 303watts for the first 8 minute block and 306 watts average for the second 8 minute block. Adjusted 1 hour calculation according to trainer road is 273 watts.

I’ve got a long way to get to 5w/kg… I’m setting an interim goal for next year of raising this to 300 watts and getting down to 75kg short term attainable targets are always a good thing in my eperience.

P.s. I nearly drowned in sweat!

Be interested to see how far you get. For reference, i’m 81kg & 187cm, so about 4 inches taller than you.

I’ve done a few FTP tests, and allowing for learning to do them better, last one I did I put out 347w (adjusted) but I think Zwift over-reads by about 5-7%.

So, real world I think thats somewhere between 320-330w. I went up from around 265 from the first test I did, butI was clueless on pacing etc so lost some there. Real world I guess i’ve gained somewhere between 40-50w in about a 2 year period. Lost a little bit of weight, maybe 4kg all in, but my ‘training’ and diet are unstructured at best. I ride my bike as much as I can, just do random sprints every now & then which is commuting & MTB at weekends. I race DH and enduro during the season & in the winter my bike lives on the turbo & I do a bit of Zwift 3 times a week.

I’d love to have bigger numbers, but in reality, I find training boring, I like food & beer & have to remember I ride bikes for fun. For amusement I do the odd XC race & get smoked by most people – it’s very apparent that while my numbers arn’t bad, there are a lot more serious people out there & my riding is the polar opposite of an XC format. I do have a good sprint on me though!

I might try some CX this winter rather than living on a turbo – it’s got to be more interesting.

Good luck – I don’t expect it t be anything other than brutal.

One month in… how are you getting on?

So one month in. I’m down to 80.5kg (start of project I was about 85/6) and haven’t done an ftp test since my first one just after my initial post.

Nothing in terms of power figures to report having not retested yet..

However I did ride with a group on Tuesday night and was first up every single climb, by a fair margin. That’s never been the case and there was a couple of guys out I’ve always looked at and seen them as quicker on the climbs than me by some margin.

There’s one sprint climb where I’ve always pushed myself. Taken my time on on it from 1min25 to 1min05 so I’m definitely making improvements.

I also went for a mtb ride last week and got a load of strava segment top 10s without even knowing where the segments were, got 2nd spot on one with 575 people on the board.

Anecdotal evidence of improvement starting to show is what I guess I’m saying.

Next ftp test in a fortnight. I’m hoping for a 10w improvement with the work I’ve put in.

Oh and people are starting to notice I’ve lost weight and my shirts look like tents on me already.

There’s one sprint climb where I’ve always pushed myself. Taken my time on on it from 1min25 to 1min05 so I’m definitely making improvements.

There’s certainly some psychological advantage there, no way have you miraculously found 30% savings by dropping a few kilos! Still, all counts, good effort. I really ought to try harder to lose some weight 😕

(5kg)…nearly a stone. Possibly, although it’s a climb where I hit max hr and hold it to the top so not really sure how it can be psychological.

Just doubled checked and it’s 1min22 to 1min05 (I’d rounded it in my head).

That’s 17 second from initial 82 17/82 times 100 is 20.7% improvement

… if I’ve dropped 10% bodyweight (slight over estimate) and gained 10% power (1 min not ftp) then (X/0.9)x1.1 is about 1.2 so a 20% increase in short punchy climbing speed, numbers aren’t a mile off.

I’ve been doing structured trainer road sessions and I can feel my power output is higher as holding different wattage on the turbo is noticeably easier.

I personally think it is my 1 minute power has risen along with the weight loss as I always thrash everything I’ve got out of myself on that climb.

Impressive stuff. Watching with interest.

while the weight is a measurable stat, the strava stuff is just anecdotal, wind speed, gps error, etc too many variables

buy a power meter

Pretty sure I just said I’ve only got anecdotal evidence as next ftp is in another 2 weeks.

Doesn’t change the fact I’ve taken 20 seconds out of that climb that’s been static at 1:22 the last 2 full blown attempts I had at it. Would need to be blowing a tailwind gale for that to be wind and it wasn’t a windy evening.

No pleasing some people.

I’m pleased 😀

I can see how it happens – these short anaerobic climbs aren’t necessarily steady efforts. If you are bit overweight and power is down then sometimes you run out steam before the top. Train a bit and you get to the top without slowing. Times come tumbling down.

Agreed. Its nothing major, just holding 1 minute better and at a lighter weight it’s had a noticeable impact..

Looking forward to next ftp test though

Well done on the weight loss- great stuff.

I’ve been obsessed with the Trainerroad podcasts lately and found several of them really useful before my FTP test last week particularly around pacing.

The biggest takeaway being that the 3rd quarter of any physical challenge is the toughest as it’s mentally the furthest away from either end. Sure enough, my previous test showed exactly that.
Physiologically, that I could hold higher watts in the last quarter shows there was no logical reason for that section to be lower- it was all mental.

And by knowing that and focussing on it, I was able to push through this time and post four very even quarters.

Also- if you sprint for the last minute then you paced too conservatively. You shouldn’t be able to. It’s also mostly anaerobic so not even representative of your FTP.

Again, the previous test I stood up for the final minute, this time- I tried and couldn’t.

I’m going to do monthly tests for the rest of the year partly to gauge what’s working but also to help improve my testing and hopefully plateau those easy gains I’m no doubt getting by testing better.

And by knowing that and focussing on it, I was able to push through this time and post four very even quarters.

Again, the previous test I stood up for the final minute, this time- I tried and couldn’t.

Nice one, CH.

No pleasing some people.

its not that, its just if your undertaking a challenge like this, get the right kit – you wouldn’t be happy if your weighing scales were best guess would you?

don’t use virtual power
don’t use strava “data”

Inclined to agree. Particularly a 90 second segment as a proxy for FTP improvements.

Well done on the weight loss, seems rather rapid.

…How much importance should a XC MTBer put on the 20min FTP test/numbers?

…should the sub 1min / 3min / 5min efforts/numbers be where we should be focusing or using for measuring?

…and like Alex said consistency with these shorter but repeated intervals?

(Hi Alex, didn’t realise you are on here) 😉

It’s an aerobic sport, damn it!”

Push up your FTP and you’ll likely see improvement in all the others too… (maybe not 5sec)

while the weight is a measurable stat, the strava stuff is just anecdotal, wind speed, gps error, etc too many variables

I disagree. Over time you can get a clear trend, this is what it’s all about after all.

Ok so it’s not a proxy for FTP, but it’s an important stat. It maybe due to better technique or better pacing/application etc but ultimately if you want to race, that all counts.

Crosshair Physiologically, that I could hold higher watts in the last quarter shows there was no logical reason for that section to be lower- it was all mental.

Very interesting – just made me realise I’ve probably done my previous FTP tests wrongly as I always end up sprinting at the end.

Any other tips on ideal pacing for the 20 mins? Gradual build-up?

Congrats so far!!

Hmm you’ve just made me review my last FTP test!!

Average for 20 mins was 250*, the last minute of which I was stood up at 301* 😳

Although the virtual terrain messed with my head a little bit too (erg mode on), as you can see from the dips in elevation (top) with a corresponding dip in power. Retard ha!

*made up numbers.

For the people moaning about the strava data please read back half a page. I didn’t post an update I was asked how I’m getting on one month in.

My response was that I’ve got no proper data yet as my next ftp test is on a fortnight but I’ve got anecdotal evidence of improvement on the bike.

I’m not basing anything on that stuff but it’s all I have at the minute when someone asked.

Oh and thanks sincerely for the congratulations on the weight loss from the people encouraging.

I want to be 76kg by the end of the summer and have a pretty strict 6 weeks planned out whilst I’m off work to drop about 0.5-1kg per week.

Going to start tracking calories as of next week too, which I’ve not done yet.

Congratulations on the weight loss.

I think people over-think the numbers. Just because more numbers are available (HR, power, balance, blah blah), doesn’t mean the older simpler ones aren’t valid!

You are riding up a segment consistently and one assumes that you are “trying hard”. Your times are coming down. So the potential energy is roughly the same (you haven’t lost THAT much weight), but the rate you are generating it is going up. Nice one 😆 . That’s Watts/kg and you can rightly be pleased.

RPE = perceived effort is also valid, and you’ve already said you are trying, so RPE is probably about the same. The Borg scale for RPE is 1-20 and is roughly heart rate/10. You are probably about 13-17. You could also measure speed or time for average heart rate, as I do for a closed traffic free lap. It’s all data.

Keep it up.

Very interesting – just made me realise I’ve probably done my previous FTP tests wrongly as I always end up sprinting at the end.

Any other tips on ideal pacing for the 20 mins? Gradual build-up?

I’ve only done one I’m pleased with so no expert 😆

I found having an accurate guess really helpful and then just did as mentioned in other threads- ride at target watts for five minutes and see where my heart rate is at.
As it was, I was above target but it felt sustainable so I just carried on holding for the next five minutes.
The third quarter was indeed the toughest but I was ready for it and just did everything I could to hold the watts. I was literally making crazy noises and spraying drool everywhere at this point.
When I hit ‘lap’ at the 15minute mark, I could also see my overall average and knew it was a good number so from there it was easy as I didn’t want to throw it away.
At 90 seconds to go, I was in danger of stopping so stood up early and the watts didn’t go more than 40 higher so I sat back down again. I tried once more at 60 to go and definitely had no sprint so closed my eyes and ground it out- another good reason to test indoors 😆

There’s one sprint climb where I’ve always pushed myself. Taken my time on on it from 1min25 to 1min05 so I’m definitely making improvements.

Regarding big improvements on Strava, that’s often down do the actual effort you put in on a particular attempt. Many people don’t like the pain associated with a 110% effort so seldom do it. Then along comes a day and you think %%%%it lets go for it. I’ve got stava pb’s many % points ahead of my next best time just because it’s a flat out ride till you puke effort, againt a normal “hard” effort.