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That's a good shout. Interesting comment about the Bushido drifting. Like I say, the actual number isn't all that important as long as it's repeatable.
One of the first things to do is find a decent coach and get tested properly to see where you actually are (VO2Max, FTP, %fat etc) and see if there is a sensible route to getting 5W/Kg. Or if its one of those things where you need to lose so much weight/do so much training you'll end up as a monk. FWIW many clean riders at that sort of power do live like monks, until the last race of the season. Then they don't for a couple of weeks, then it all starts again.
Nothing funnier than a load of cyclists "letting their hair down". Mostly consists of blind drunk on 5 beers and eating a WHOLE PIZZA WITHOUT GOING TRAINING FIRST!!!111!1!!1!!1.
Yeah, i've done it. I regret nothing. Really.
Oh, and friends/family will think you are ill when you get fitter, it's actually a sad/funny/good indicator, when people ask if you are eating properly. FWIW at fittest i was in the realms of 330-340W FTP, low/mid 60s for weight, and i'm still just short of 180 tall. (Not a sprinter) My mum worried about me all the time, my other half watched me eating. So had no worries about food intake. Except paying for groceries.
As another thing, when you get into the lower weights/higher powers/more training, watch out for getting ill. Kids, work places, partners, they'll all give you horrible diseases. Bastrads
And if you've not already got one (haven't read every post) get a PM too.
You'll need to move from miles to hours.
Week in week out is the issue. I've averaged 8hrs 20minutes a week for the last 2 years. That takes account of low load weeks (every 4th week) some injury, a house move and quite a lot of illness the majority of which has, I think, been caused by my training/fitness.
In 3 years I've moved from 3.7W/kg to 4.57W/kg. I don't believe the actual figure but it's the same Stages on the same course and I do believe the improvement. I'm coached.
I'll never get to a true 5W/kg. I could concievably do 5W/kg over 20minutes next year if all goes very well (and it isn't, I'm ill again) but to then multiply by 0.95 - no chance.
But to say "my power output must be high because Strava" is flawed.
Depends who or what you are comparing against innit. It's equally flawed to say 'my stats say I am awesome' when you are in the 50% range on the busy climbs.
I know what you mean, of course, but it's one of those things - Strava is or isn't the bottom line depending on your point of view.
Serious numbers - look forward to seeing your progress if you share it here. I'm lucky with Watt bikes within a few mins of my office, doing a lot of hiit, hill work etc but can't get close to this. Have lost a good few kg's trying though 🙂
Any increase is a win, sure you will have fun going for it. Make sure you don't push too hard / overtrain, it can set you back quite a bit.
No. you'll need 14 hours a week, about 450-500 km and intensity in that too. I upped my volume by 33% this year to 400/week with every 4th week at a lower volume but same intensity, and I'm 49, 68 kg and about 4.8 watts/kg. About a quarter of my volume is racing. The jump to 5 is very tough. But good luck.
And for XC race no, you will need to factor in technical skills training too.
Great thread and very interesting, will follow
Yes you can hit 5w/kg in that time frame from your start point if you have some dodgy scales, dodgy PM, hit some short term rapid weight loss, etc, etc... 😉
A solid 5w/kg would need a good few years of consistent, focused and smart training/ diet IMO. I would agree with what others have already said whereby the aim of hitting 5w/kg should be akin to "I aim to be able to hang at the front of elite races" which might sound easier but would be quite the opposite IMO!
If you think in that context it also begs the question "why 5w/kg"? Why not try to be the fastest you can? Would you sacrifice total w's for w/kg for example and does this realistically suit the type of rider you are?
It is an interesting question, but I guess my overall thinking is it would be a monumental achievement in your time frame and there may be more low hanging fruit to getting faster/ better time in the event
I can waffle at length about the Vortex's limitations if you like... It's very temperature sensitive. As a minimum you should do a spindown after 5 or 10 minutes at workout intensity. Otherwise it may be plenty more than 10% out. Mine can drift by 5% _within_ a 5 minute interval on a cold day.
Ok. We've got evidence the Vortex isn't properly up to the job in the long run.
Its a bench mark though and will have to do for now, I've considered buying a watt bike but it will have to wait 6 months. For now the Vortex with TAC x software and also trainer road software will have to do due to finances.
I'm really looking forward to the progress of this, keep us updated as much as you can with the good and the bad.
Whether you can achieve it or not doesn't matter, your ambition's great and the fact you prepared to share your goals is brilliant, if a little mad, especially in here 😉
Good luck OP
This will be a good thread, keep us in the loop. 5w/kg..that will be a mighty impressive feat if you achieve it. Be an interesting journey. I'm 50yo 6' and 73kg, my last FTP was 273 sometime in January and since then it has certainly gone up. I've put in about 3000 miles since then, some structured but mostly just riding cos I like riding. The discipline that's going to be needed to acheive a goal like the OP's is admirable. I only work 24 weeks a year but still struggle to find the time to ride some weeks and I couldn't give up chocolate either!!.
Just to chip in on your FW target - I just did it in 7h dead after a solid winter of TrainerRoad (Base, Sustained Power Build, Climbing Speciality). I'm 65kg and around 250ftp so about 3.6w/kg. For that time my Avg Power was 178w, so nothing crazy. Training (and the weather) made that possible though, quickest I had done before was 7h48.
If you get near the numbers you're aiming for, you'd be looking close to 'winning' - my riding buddy hits 4.6w/kg and he was 12th fastest on the day.
As others have said, a physiological session with a trainer is golden. I did one with a Guy from BC this spring and it was worth every penny to speak with someone so knowledgable.
Good luck with your goal though, I'll be watching with interest!
Watching this with interest - similar build and background to the OP, but never got near a KOM..... probably due to a shockingly bad diet!
Good luck!
I'm 6ft; 4 years ago I weighed 95kg and riding a bike for 6/7 miles was an achievement. A radical change in diet (no junk food and meat) and a weekly 7 mile cycle, which eventually turned into a 50 mile fasted cycle plus I started running too. All that had me dropping weight so quickly people thought I was ill. 18 months later I was 65kg and I actually looked ill, turns out I was (but that's another story). But now I'm happily 70kg so that's where I am staying.
Unfortunately I don't have the stats to prove this, but losing weight while cycling and running I think I retained a large proportion of my leg mass (all be it turning it into muscle instead of fat). I have just started a structured training program with circa 15/16 hours a week built in, on my first week this equated to 306 miles. My target is also 5w/kg, currently 4.51w/kg, but to get there I'm in no doubt that volume (hours) and polarisation are the key!
I'm sorry... Regarding the Vortex; I've had two brand new ones that gave me an FTP of over 5w/kg, both calibrated correctly and using an official Tacx Turbo tyre. I hired a stages power meter and in reality it was actually 4.36w/kg, I later bought one as they're so useful for training consistently.
This should highlight it, the 3rd Jan being the last one using a vortex: https://www.zwiftpower.com/profile.php?id=8544067
As others have said, a physiological session with a trainer is golden. I did one with a Guy from BC this spring and it was worth every penny to speak with someone so knowledgable.
What did you do on this?
I suspect most people in the thread will have seen this, but this chart astounds me.
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If you are on the south coast and want to get properly tested the guys at silent uni are very good too. Found out I had a particularly good vo2 max
the guys at silent uni
Are they like monks or something?
Some good feedback on this thread.
FWIW I went from around 78kg and about 260W to 71kg and over 350W. Though I was previously a quick 68kg runner who'd got injured, then fat and untrained when I became a dad, so potential was there. Took about 4 years of increasing levels of seriousness/commitment to get there (though aim has been to get better at racing, not some w/kg target.) A lot of steady winter miles off a low carb diet to turn myself into an efficient cyclist. A lot of polarised training in spring. Racing in summer. Quite a lot of questioning the sanity of it all 😕
At 5w/kg your approching pro-road level. Are you really that good?
It really isn't. I'm really not. I'd say it's at the level of a decent club racer.
Tips would be to get a coach, get a plan, get a power meter, set incremental goals, always be progressing, make your training specific to your goals. Oh and ride your bike, a lot, outdoors. Good luck 😀
I suspect most people in the thread will have seen this, but this chart astounds me.
Think that chart can set some false expectations, certainly in terms of category for UK racing. If you look at a cat 1 racer for example, they might have numbers that fall roughly into those ranges. But it definitely doesn't mean that if you have numbers that fall into those ranges that you can rock up at a cat 1 race and be competitive.
I think blobby's post gives a good idea of what it would take. 5w/kg isn't pro but it is a bloody good amateur level. I've been in testing with GB development athletes (XC) and they were low 5's for some context. Yes some were higher but as blobby also alluded to numbers don't necessarily make you ride fast and the craft takes a hell of a long time to master.
On road.. less so on MTB I suspect?
On road.. less so on MTB I suspect?
You can have a great engine but you need the rad skillz off road... 😉
Demands are different. And for progressing in UK road racing having repeatable big watts and a good sprint is more important than being light weight IMO. Though with the OP's aim of a good placing in FW, good w/kg (and getting the kg as low as possible) seems sensible (though not ridden it so probably not best placed to comment.)
Lolz at that vid 🙂
For anyone else as confused as I was when I started reading this thread, FTP = Functional Threshold Power, not File Transfer Protocol.
As you were 😀
Solent uni.
Bloody spellcheck
Interesting thread... OP sounds similar to my level of fitness right now, and although I have no interest in (putting the effort in to get to) 5 w/kg, we all want to be fitter don't we? So will try to pick up some tips.
Just googled "polarised training"... is this the latest & greatest thing? And have I sort of been doing it accidentally?! i.e. Short hard sessions like Zwift & SCR a few times a week but generally taking it much easier with longer, relaxed rides (& trying to increase length/duration of those?)
is this the latest & greatest thing?
I'd always heard that mixing it up was a good idea...
I've got a friend who's done really well in triathlon (was 1 place off representing GB at Iron Man distance a few years back), and he's always said to me do 80% of your training in zone 2 and then the other 20% needs to be really hard.
I've never heard it called polarized before but it's the same principle.
I try and keep my commutes in zone 2 to help with this balance.
Think that chart can set some false expectations, certainly in terms of category for UK racing
I always love that chart. Everyone focuses on the RHS (FTP), and yes, 4.5-5 W/kg will see you competitive in the sense you'll be finishing at the pointy end of the bunch in Cat 2/3 road races. Sadly the POINTS end of the spectrum tends to be found on the LHS with peak power. Unless there is a nice uphill finish. I'm rubbish on those flat circuits. But then I play domestique instead.
I guess for Xc, it's the same, except if you can't handle a bike off-road properly, you won't get there either.
Get FTP or die trying.
In the case of your target I predict death will come first.
Would your Fred target (or another event) not make a better training goal than an arbitrary W/kg value?
You can still use power to weight as a measure of progress towards your goal.
Will you really look back and remember the day you did X W/kg in an FTP test? I bet you'll remember a day out battling big climbs in the Lakes, achieving your target time and impressing your mates, on the other hand. I'd consider what your real goal is, and pick something inspiring that you can really look forward to.
I try and keep my commutes in zone 2 to help with this balance.
First time I've done it properly it was for a 9 week block earlier this year. It was hard. Learnt a lot. If you're doing the hard stuff properly then you'll likely not be able to manage much more than z2 the rest of the time 😉
TBH I'm not sure I'd recommend it as something to do until you have a good base built with a year or two of z2, long tempo blocks, and the more traditional sweet spot 2x20 work.
In the case of your target I predict death will come first.
😆
Anyone used the Watts per Kilo tool here: http://www.marcellobrivio.com/projects/strava-toolbox/watts-per-kilogram-ranking.php
It makes for some depressing reading...my best in the last 30 days, 3.18w/k
Some folk here suggesting a wattbike for training - I'd say a power meter for your bike that that you can use most of the time would be better and probably cheaper. It would also mean that any power drift in your turbo trainer would be taken account of.
Once you have a power meter then TrainingPeaks (or similar) can help you keep track of your actual workload as well as time/distance in the saddle.
If the Fred is your main performance goal then your FTP/kg seems like a good metric to focus on. If you find yourself at your 1min threshhold on that route then something's gone wrong!
Or you're on hardknott and not walking, so somethings gone right 🙂If you find yourself at your 1min threshhold on that route then something's gone wrong!
Anyone used the Watts per Kilo tool here: http://www.marcellobrivio.com/projects/strava-toolbox/watts-per-kilogram-ranking.php
it's a massive overestimate of FTP - mine comes out at 4.57 w/kg calculated from a ride in which my best one hour power was 192W ( https://www.strava.com/activities/998755483).
Anyone used the Watts per Kilo tool here: http://www.marcellobrivio.com/projects/strava-toolbox/watts-per-kilogram-ranking.php
That site has no terms of service or privacy policy. Not sure it's a good idea to give tools like that access to all your data.
Nothing funnier than a load of cyclists "letting their hair down". Mostly consists of blind drunk on 5 beers and eating a WHOLE PIZZA WITHOUT GOING TRAINING FIRST!!
5 beers? 😯 Oh my...
Those were the days. 🙄 🙄 😆
I'm blind drunk on 5 beers these days already (maybe 6)
20 years ago when I played rugby 5 pints was a warm-up. I don't think I'd ever see the fifth nowadays.
On the actual topic though...
5 is definitely possible for a time-crunched amateur. The key thing is that your time on the bike needs to be spent doing quality workouts. Much like Bradley Wiggins training in the shed, you will have to spend lots of time doing really horrid turbo work, and there is no real room for crappy commuting miles or enjoyable rides out in the country. Yes, you can fit in some of these rides in your 'off' week, but most of the time will have to be super-focussed.
'Definitely' is a very strong word.
A year training for the Fred will see anyone under 7 hour's I'd have thought. I've got a few mates who are sub 7 hours and they aren't that special to look at! (Not you dave 😉 you're special!)
Good luck Paul - awesome challenge
'Definitely' is a very strong word.
Sure. But it is.
I would even say that most people could attain that level of performance if they trained properly. But therein lies the problem - training properly is hard. Really hard.
And while there is nothing wrong, per se, with aiming for 5W/Kg. Unless that is also tied to some other kind of result metrics (race wins, category ranking, time trial performance, time up Mt Ventoux, etc), then I'm not sure how anyone is going to keep focussed for what is probably a good 2+ years of work.