Project 5 watts per kg.

Some folk here suggesting a wattbike for training – I’d say a power meter for your bike that that you can use most of the time would be better and probably cheaper. It would also mean that any power drift in your turbo trainer would be taken account of.

Once you have a power meter then TrainingPeaks (or similar) can help you keep track of your actual workload as well as time/distance in the saddle.

If the Fred is your main performance goal then your FTP/kg seems like a good metric to focus on. If you find yourself at your 1min threshhold on that route then something’s gone wrong!

If you find yourself at your 1min threshhold on that route then something’s gone wrong!

Or you’re on hardknott and not walking, so somethings gone right 🙂

Anyone used the Watts per Kilo tool here: http://www.marcellobrivio.com/projects/strava-toolbox/watts-per-kilogram-ranking.php

it’s a massive overestimate of FTP – mine comes out at 4.57 w/kg calculated from a ride in which my best one hour power was 192W (https://www.strava.com/activities/998755483).

Anyone used the Watts per Kilo tool here: http://www.marcellobrivio.com/projects/strava-toolbox/watts-per-kilogram-ranking.php

That site has no terms of service or privacy policy. Not sure it’s a good idea to give tools like that access to all your data.

Nothing funnier than a load of cyclists “letting their hair down”. Mostly consists of blind drunk on 5 beers and eating a WHOLE PIZZA WITHOUT GOING TRAINING FIRST!!

5 beers? 😯 Oh my…

Those were the days. 🙄 🙄 😆

I’m blind drunk on 5 beers these days already (maybe 6)

20 years ago when I played rugby 5 pints was a warm-up. I don’t think I’d ever see the fifth nowadays.

On the actual topic though…

5 is definitely possible for a time-crunched amateur. The key thing is that your time on the bike needs to be spent doing quality workouts. Much like Bradley Wiggins training in the shed, you will have to spend lots of time doing really horrid turbo work, and there is no real room for crappy commuting miles or enjoyable rides out in the country. Yes, you can fit in some of these rides in your ‘off’ week, but most of the time will have to be super-focussed.

‘Definitely’ is a very strong word.

A year training for the Fred will see anyone under 7 hour’s I’d have thought. I’ve got a few mates who are sub 7 hours and they aren’t that special to look at! (Not you dave 😉 you’re special!)

Good luck Paul – awesome challenge

‘Definitely’ is a very strong word.

Sure. But it is.

I would even say that most people could attain that level of performance if they trained properly. But therein lies the problem – training properly is hard. Really hard.

And while there is nothing wrong, per se, with aiming for 5W/Kg. Unless that is also tied to some other kind of result metrics (race wins, category ranking, time trial performance, time up Mt Ventoux, etc), then I’m not sure how anyone is going to keep focussed for what is probably a good 2+ years of work.

How many people have you seen do it?
Or, how many people do you know with an FTP of 5w/kg?

Thing is though, it’s actually a really objective goal. Race wins and course times are all subjective. 20mph headwinds the day of the FW would make the finish time irrelevant even if you ‘knew’ you’d smashed it.

Likewise finishing positions. I did a much better time around the SPAM winter challenge on Salisbury plain in very similar conditions, but my finishing percentage actually got worse because of who else turned up.

If you keep your FTP test repeatable then a w/kg target in unequivocal.

It’s not possible in the time frame

It’s not probable in any time frame

I really hope that doesn’t stop you trying.

A large proportion of the first gains you record are likely to be due to better pacing on your FTP testing.

Like I said 3 years proper coached and sustainable training = 4.8W/kg at best. Then again I’m 20years older than you so maybe it is possible.

I did a post 7hrs Fred time last year, wasn’t that hard 😀

from the OP’s original post, I’m about the same current weight,height, power. I did 9hrs, it was bloody hard. 😉

Yeah, I’ll attest to that table not being entirely a confirmation that you’ll automatically be competitive – some of my numbers are pretty good looking at that chart but I’ve got a long way to go still to be competitive at the level it suggests (American categories or not!)

Thing is though, it’s actually a really objective goal. Race wins and course times are all subjective…If you keep your FTP test repeatable then a w/kg target in unequivocal.

A race win is not a subjective goal, and is very easily measured! I’d agree there is an element of chance in a course time, but only within a certain range, and you can set your goals to reflect that. Setting yourself the goal of going 5 seconds faster than your PB might not be very challenging for the average rider, because all you have to do is wait for a good day, Choose an appropriately challenging goal and you won’t achieve it through luck; you’ll have to work for it. Everyone will get the same 20 mph headwind on the Fred, so even if your time target becomes meaningless, you can still measure how you did by position, and whether you beat your mates!

I’m not suggesting that aiming to improve FTP is not worthwhile, but I would be cautious about confusing a metric with a goal. Goals are not simply something measurable. It is important for them to be inspiring and interesting, or as matts points out above, there is a good chance you will suffer a motivation slump in the middle of what will be a very tough training programme.

When I was training seriously, the thing that kept me focused through tough intervals and long hours in the saddle was the looking forward to being really competitive in races and aiming to get over the line first. I didn’t do it very often, but when it happened, it was a fantastic buzz and definitely made the training worthwhile. I don’t think I would have been as motivated by the aim of doing a good King Cycle test.

However, that’s just my experience, and you have to choose your own goals…

(Not you dave you’re special!)

THanks 😀

Yeah, I’ll attest to that table not being entirely a confirmation that you’ll automatically be competitive – some of my numbers are pretty good looking at that chart but I’ve got a long way to go still to be competitive at the level it suggests

I don’t think that chart can be that relevant really. I have a mate who does “world class” numbers but he’s certainly no where near a world tour rider. Infact, look at any of the top hill climbers riding the nationals and they probably do better five minute numbers than loads of world tour riders. Bet they can’t do them after at the end of a 200km stage after 15 days in the saddle though 😉

Kcr- I suppose the current format of Zwift racing skews my outlook a little. Despite the fact that tactics and drafting do play a huge part, Categories are still divided up by FTP/kg. So reaching 4.0w/kg takes you over the threshold into A category and 5.0 means you need approval from ZADA 😆

Locality also plays a part. Here, I feel blessed to have a vast choice of races of every type within 1hrs drive. Extend that to two hours and the choice is endless.
However, it means you aren’t just racing the same faces each week and a top 5 or even 10 could go from being easily obtainable to impossible depending on who else turns up. That makes it a subjective goal. You could do everything right and still get nowhere near your target. Conversely, even a win could feel flat if the local fast guys didn’t turn up that week.

A solid understanding / regular monitoring of your fitness using consistent testing can only enhance your motivation IMO.

I’m not saying don’t have a ‘fun’ goal- just underpin it with something truly objective to keep it in perspective.

No motivation for numbers here (despite being a mathematician). But smashing out a Zone 4 effort into miles of headwinds towing lots of older men made me feel good yesterday. That and I think I may be liking time trialling more than I thought I would.

80/20 volume and intensity seems to work for me. But top end power is what you need for results.

Back to the OP…

I think you should just focus on raising your FTP, the weight loss will take care of itself if you’re doing sufficient mileage.

And if you do get your FTP to 5w/kg. Get a TT bike and go and compete at the nationals.

I think you should just focus on raising your FTP, the weight loss will take care of itself if you’re doing sufficient mileage.

not really, when i was banging in big mileage a couple of years ago (regular 17 hour weeks) my weight remained static as i paid my diet no attention

Weighed in this morning. 81kg. I’ve been on a diet for 6 days! Was 84kg last Tuesday. I have been ill as well though.

Sugar cravings have all gone and I’m loving being off the booze, actually feel like I’m sleeping deeper.

You wouldn’t believe the crap I’ve eaten over the last few years and riding and lifting weights had generally stopped me piling it on. But I am far from lean. That’s why the sudden focus on diet to help shift the timber before the hard graft of raising ftp.

I’ll be happy to just maintain current strength whilst losing weight for now as I’ll be at 4w/kg (or thereabouts) when I hit 70kg if I maintain current outputs.

I’m aiming for a steady 1kg per week loss over the next 10/11 weeks. Going to keep plentry of squats and deadlifts in to retain raw power as my sprint is my party trick at the minute and don’t want to lose that snap.

I’m aiming for a steady 1kg per week loss over the next 10/11 weeks.

1Kg a week is at the high end for someone who’s really quite flabby to start with. If you’re just carrying a few extra pounds, .5Kg is more realistic as a sustainable average.

And if you’ve been doing lots of gym work in the past, there may be more than 70Kg of muscle mass under there.

Going cold turkey on everything can feel great for a few weeks, but if you have aspirations of this being a long-term and sustainable plan, then a more gradual reduction for some things may be easier to handle.

Thanks Matt. I’ll see how I get on.

When I used to lift seriously (over a decade ago) I used to shift fat at about 1kg a week when in a cutting phase. I’m happy to lose muscle (from top half) with this cut too so I think 1kg per week will be ok.

It will be an exponential decay curve though I’m sure. This first week I’ve lost 3kg. Prob be 2kg next week then 1 the week after… then I might be into halves or it could carry on for a bit at 1kg per week.

I have no idea though as I’ve not tried to cut like this properly in 10 years and used to do it with very little cardio but maintaining weight training.

I’ll be having the obligatory “cheat meal” every 7 days or so too to keep my metabolism from stagnating.

How many people have you seen do it?
Or, how many people do you know with an FTP of 5w/kg?

Probably only 2 or 3 who’ve got to 5, but for sure that’s off many more hours.

But I’m just talking about the physiological standpoint here. Is is possible for a male in their 20s-30s to attain 5W/Kg? Yes. If they are coached properly, I think it is.

From a psychological point of view. That’s another matter.

Personally, I think it makes my life better to ride my bike to work every day. I abhor commuting into London on the train/tube, and it makes me miserable. There is no way I would swap that part of my riding to come home a bit earlier and then sit on the turbo every evening.

I’ll be having the obligatory “cheat meal” every 7 days or so too to keep my metabolism from stagnating.

You’ll be shovelling in anything that comes within reach 7 days a week if you get anywhere close to 5W/Kg. The hours on the bike requirement will take care of that, there’s no place for being picky on the diet front beyond just avoiding too much processed crap.

Going to keep plentry of squats and deadlifts in to retain raw power as my sprint is my party trick at the minute and don’t want to lose that snap.

might be worth looking into some plyo stuff too.

this series of articles is very intewresting.

I have no idea though as I’ve not tried to cut like this properly in 10 years and used to do it with very little cardio but maintaining weight training.

Don’t forget that cutting for bodybuilding doesn’t also require you to be improving your athletic performance at the same time. You can’t expect to do threshold and above workouts without fuelling properly.

And if you do get your FTP to 5w/kg. Get a TT bike and go and compete at the nationals.

You’d likely not embarrass yourself with 5 w/kg but to do reasonably well at national level IMO you need to be up around 400 watts, be able to put that out in your TT position, and have done a lot of work on getting your CdA to a competitive level. Weight isn’t so important assuming it doesn’t hinder low CdA but you’d likely be at around 5.5+ w/kg.

For the OP, with the goal of a good placing at FW, I’d say just get out and ride a lot. Lots of long fasted z2 rides with big tempo blocks. 2×20 efforts. Occasional steep hill work. Work on your position too for some free speed. Get on MyFitnessPal and set yourself some sensible targets for very gradual and sustainable weight loss. Only turbo for specific sessions or when the weather’s foul. Unless you’re already at maybe 12+ hours of riding I’d not bother with the gym, spend the time on the bike.

You can’t expect to do threshold and above workouts without fuelling properly.

learnt this the tough way.

racing weight[/url] book is a good read. useful plan/ guides for losing weight whilst training.

I have no idea though as I’ve not tried to cut like this properly in 10 years and used to do it with very little cardio but maintaining weight training.
Don’t forget that cutting for bodybuilding doesn’t also require you to be improving your athletic performance at the same time. You can’t expect to do threshold and above workouts without fuelling properly

Well aware of this, I’m carb cycling for workouts and re-fuelling well after them.

Also as I’ve mentioned I’m attempting to retain my current performance whilst shifting the weight not improve it. I agree with what someone posted early on… both at the same time will be unlikely.

If I took what I consider to be my theoretical minimum racing weight (not achieved in recent years, about 78kg or so) and a generous estimate of what my peak FTP might have been when I used to train properly, I’d be on about 4.5W/kg.

I’d need to be seriously cut and also gain 40-50W from somewhere at the same time 😯

Molly – I reckon that your racing weight would be below that.

Perhaps. I measured my body fat at 18% with calipers, and I am currently about 89kg. So at 8% body fat I’d still only be 80kg. I seem to have trouble getting consistent results with the calipers though – could be 20%

Even at 78 kilos you’ll be carrying a load of useless muscle that won’t be contributing to forward speed.

But caliper measurement error is around 100%……. 😉

TBH, this is the thing to focus on. Proper hard training for hours and hours with a sensible calorie intake. All this “cutting” and dieting to lose weight is not going to support a 5w/kg target.

Train hard and eat sensibly and it’ll come off.

And by training hard i mean training hard, not just banging the miles in (though you’ll have to do a lot of that too).

Train hard and eat sensibly and it’ll come off

This is what my cut is consisting of. Cutting out alcohol cakes and biscuits and processed meats is eating sensibly. I’ve not taken up atkins or something daft.

Shifting my carbs to slow release is going to support the goal too as I’ve got less insulin spikes.

What exactly do you think I’m doing to shift the weight? Eating slim fast shakes and not training?

My carb cycling I’m doing is nothing drastic either, just slightly lower carb intake on lower volume days and days where I’m just doing zone 2. Bigger rides and harder workout requires more fuel so more in on those days strategically timed.

For reference the winners bike split at KONA seems to be typically done off an FTP of 4.8-5w/kg and an IF of ~0.8.

I’m guessing that they don’t identify themselves as having a sprinter body type and train pretty hard too.

For reference the winners bike split at KONA seems to be typically done off an FTP of 4.8-5w/kg and an IF of ~0.8.

Interesting that. I assume they train primarily for an even 4.5 hr effort on the bike with a long swim and a marathon to do as well. I’d guess with IM training you’d end up with quite a flat power curve out to a few hours duration so your 60MP may not sound that impressive. A case of your 60MP number not being that directly relevant to the event.