Preparing for disappointment – asking for a pay rise…

I’ll attempt to keep this brief.

I was employed to do job A. In a previous life i did job B. Over the years skills from my previous job have been called upon and in some cases i can spend most of my time doing what i did before i joined my current company. When i asked for a pay rise (maybe 3-4 years ago) i was told NO! as we hired you because you could do other things. I don’t believe this to be the case and there is no mention of job B in my contract. Also peers in work are were on the same wage as me despite being less experienced and only doing the job they were hired to do. I have also undertaken various projects within the company that are both new to the company and to me using my skills gained in role B (in the hope i could use them as leverage to get an increase in pay as well as learning something new).

I have a meeting in the morning with the MD and a couple of the directors about my salary and i fully expect them to refuse again. If that is the case, can i refuse to do any more role B work? (last time i hinted at this i was told i’d face action and they huffed with me for several months 😀 )

Am i being unreasonable to think i deserve more money for doing much more than i was hired to do?

Any advice or mocking would be appreciated.

Got a plan B?

If you want to stay there, they hold the cards. If you want to leave then give it a go and find an alternative offer.
Either that or document how much more you offer/deliver against your colleagues.

If they refuse and you consequently decide to stick to your contract then I’d imagine they’d have to worry about constructive dismissal if they were to try and kick you out.

At the end of the day, if you have skills exceeding your peers, which are being used by your business then you’ve every right to ask for that to be recognised.

Most contract have a clause in then states they can ask you (and expect you to) to cover other duties within reason. There is some argument that they’re paying you to be there and so can utilise you have they see fit in this time. I suspect that, contractually at least, they’re probably OK.

However, you’ve not had a pay rise for 3 or 4 years, I would be asking for one for that reason alone. Go in with solid reasons why you feel you’re worth it and see what they say. I would suggest that if they don’t want to play ball it may be time to tidy up your CV.

I do enjoy my job Mike and i’d like to stay as the hours suit me (4 days off a week). They are currently looking for another member of staff but afaik only one person has applied.

At the end of the day, if you have skills exceeding your peers, which are being used by your business then you’ve every right to ask for that to be recognised

That’s how i see it too, but when i pointed this out, they hinted that if they were letting people go, i’d likely be kept on as i was more useful to the company.

There is a ‘any other duties’ part in the contract but i wouldn’t think that covers a completely different career. If i was a car mechanic who worked as a hairdresser, i would expect to fix everyone’s car when i wasn’t cutting hair 😀

Oh, i’ve not had a pay rise in the 9 years i’ve worked there (not counting the union standard 2% in 4 of those nine years)

Depending on how well you think your chances are perhaps look for a parallel of another employee in the company who shares a similar level of skill and request parity with them assuming you are privvy to their salary level.

Or put forward other advertised roles you are matched to which offer a better salary.

Whining will get you nothing ultimately.

do you have role reviews ? if you have been in an evolving business for more than a year it would be reasonable that the job description is reviewed and that could lead to a pay rise should they decide to utilise your skills.

I know people do this all the time, but I can’t imagine being at the same job for 9 years.

Time for a change anyway?

I don’t think you can make a case other than to highlight your continuing value to the company over your equivalently-paid peers.

Sadly, it tends to be the people who threaten to leave, and are prepared to do so, that are in a better position to argue for more cash.

Oh, i’ve not had a pay rise in the 9 years i’ve worked there (not counting the union standard 2% in 4 of those nine years)

So, you have had a pay rise then…

Either way, first thing you need to do is work out what you want from the meeting and what the consequences of not getting it are. For arguments sake, you may aim at a 10% pay increase but be happy with 5%, if you get less than 5% your CV gets dusted off and sent to your competitors.

Next up, work out how to get it. a “yeah, but I deserve it” approach rarely works, a “I bring £x of value to the company” and “market rates for my kinds of skills are between £x and £y, your 2 closest competitors pay …” works much better. Basically, try and make your value easy for them to grasp and so easy for them to reward.

Whatever you do, go in with a plan or you’ll be stuffed.

it tends to be the people who threaten to leave, and are prepared to do so, that are in a better position to argue for more cash.

This would be my strategy. Don’t let them saying no and keeping the current arrangement be an option for them.

Euro – Member
Am i being unreasonable to think i deserve more money for doing much more than i was hired to do?

Any advice or mocking would be appreciated.

No, you are not unreasonable what you are doing is in addition to your initial job offer.

But it is the timing and the way you have presented your skills that put you at a disadvantage, coz you have no clue or understanding of the people you work with especially your boss.

Now to remedy the situation. Try not to reveal too much of what you can do from now on or show too much eagerness to do something then expect some sort of pay rise etc … but you will not get the rise coz the nature of organisation nowadays is highly bureaucratic which will present too much hassle for anyone that may want to give you the rise and (I bet) your boss will not stick his neck out for you unless his job is at stake.

Never ever do more than what you can unless you know you work with a decent boss / human being.

Time to move to another company me think … 😯

I bring £x of value to the company” and “market rates for my kinds of skills are between £x and £y, your 2 closest competitors pay …”

This

I don’t think your employer is being unreasonable asking you to use your skills while employed by them.

But if job A is of significantly higher value to the company than job B then point this out. Don’t refuse to work, don’t be awkward, just point out that if they needed to hire someone to do that part of the job it would cost them a lot more than you and they’d likely not find someone who could do job B and job A like you can.

If you wanted to be “that not my job” about it the time was when you were first asked, not when you fancied a bit more cash.

If you really don’t want to do job A’s tasks then you need to tell your employer that you didn’t apply for that job so you’d like to stop and you will do so once they find someone else.

It’s all just a negotiation but angering the people you want to give you more money for doing what you do now for less money really isn’t a great approach.

Long post – the point is near the end.

When I used to work for a big corporate these things were pretty straight forward – on the first of every March you started your ‘job’ the terms and requirements of your job started that day, it didn’t matter how long you have worked there or what you did before everyone started with a clean sheet and your requirements where based on what you did last year.

On the weeks leading up to the 28th of Feb the following year you had a meeting with the boss to discuss your performance – if you had turned up everyday and done your job you’d get a firm handshake, a thank you, a pay rise directly linked to the published rate of inflation on the 28th of Feb and a profit sharing bonuses everyone got – 8%-10% of your salary usually. It was fair, it was honest and if all you wanted to do was come to work everyday do your job and head home you could do that for the rest of your life if you wanted to, their was no stigma attached to it – as they used to say “every company needs it’s plodders, they’re reliable to get the job done and rarely make mistakes”.

However, if you wanted to improve your lot you could – you could say to your boss “well actually I did 110% of what was required of me this year” or “I’ve learned these new skills and are using them day to day to improve my output” although without sounding like you were on the apprentice or a robot and if you could ‘prove’ it you would get either a 4 or 5 performance grade (3 being ‘does the job’) and you might get a 20%-30% pay rise and a bonuses of 40% of your salary (plus the 10% profit share) so in theory by working hard you could get paid 50% more than the guy sat next to you in the same job.

Some people think that’s terribly unfair, why do two people doing the same job get paid such wildly different amounts (especially if their gender isn’t the same) but to us it was fair – you entered an agreement every March, if you did as you said you would do you got paid what they said they’d pay you – if you did more you got more – the downside of course was if you had a really good year, your agreement on March the 1st was much ‘bigger’ than the next guy.

Anyway – the point.

Lots of people think that because they do their job, they’re entitled to a pay rise every year – well, you are, an inflation linked pay rise is only fair things cost more, so you shouldn’t face a reduction in living standards year on year, but some people think they should get 5, 10 even 20% pay rises because, well they want one.

As for the OP, they’re in a bit of a tricky situation – yes they have more skills than the job requires and they’re using those skills – BUT they ‘sold’ these skills in order to get the job – in ‘big corporate’ terms they started their agreement with these skills so based on nothing but the original post they’ve not brought anything new to the table.

If you really want a pay rise you’ve got to either explain and even prove how your performance has improved since you last had a pay rise over inflation so you can show you’re worth more to them now, or and this is harder of course – employment is like any other type of business transaction you can sell your skills to whoever you want – if they won’t pay you a fair price for your skills someone else might, even harder than that is telling your employer so, if they’re pragmatic and business minded you might get away with saying, “I want more money or I will seek employment elsewhere” but some people aren’t like that, they’re a bit power mad and might start talking about counting yourself lucky to work here – some people do generally think employing someone is doing them a favour.

If you really want a pay rise you’ve got to either explain and even prove how your performance has improved since you last had a pay rise over inflation so you can show you’re worth more to them now,

This, but I might play it differently – do you have a job description? If you can show that the job description is out of date or not representative of what you do you should rewrite it. I’d submit your version of your job description in advance of the meeting and propose that this is so different from the others’ roles that it deserves re-grading at a higher salary.

There’s a lot more to this than i originally posted but i wanted to keep it brief. I have a plan of sorts and will do my best to stick to it and keep calm. Thanks for the replies. Plenty to think about for sure.

Have you considered dropping them a line ahead of the meeting?

1) I’m doing an excellent job for you. I don’t moan, I work well beyond my brief. I am a bright prospect for the future.
2) I am doing more than you took me on for, this has been a great opportunity to build my skills thanks. (Sub-text, you’ll need to employ two people to fill my position?)
3) I see from job adverts/ approaches from head-hunters etc that what you’re paying me at the moment isn’t really on-market, I absolutely don’t want you to think I am a retention risk, but I do feel a bit under-whelmed

4) I would like you to consider giving me an increase please. I am looking for a salary in the late 30s/40s/50s etc and a (increase in car allowance/ pension contribution etc)

This has worked for me a couple of times. I generally ask for what I want rather than ask for a higher figure, as a bargaining position. It has worked in my situation.

Just a suggestion

Good luck.

Cheers blurty 😀 . I emailed them requesting a review and outlined my main reasons for doing so (pretty much what you listed) while also applauding them for doing a great job 😈

My wages for the job are in line with others of similar experience in the industry. My other skills can claim a higher rate based on experience (i’ve been doing it for a long time) and they charge me out almost double the rate to clients for my services in role B. I do have a sum in mind that i’d be happy with, but i’m expecting the worst. Some good management style phrases in your post – hope you don’t mind if i use them.

So, you have had a pay rise then..

Yeah i suppose, but it was the standard ‘in line with inflation’ rise and the company has only paid it in 4 of the 9 years i’ve been there. I’ve not had a rise based on merit (and the 5 years we didn’t get it are effectively a pay cut.

P-Jay, the company tried the objective related pay thing. The first year it was introduced i was the only one in our dept who got the plodders rate (it coincided with the ‘huff’ i mentioned – lesson learnt, don’t **** with the bosses daughter). The following year i was out to prove a point, and went well beyond what was expected only for them to drop the scheme come appraisal time 😡

BUT they ‘sold’ these skills in order to get the job – in ‘big corporate’ terms they started their agreement with these skills so based on nothing but the original post they’ve not brought anything new to the table.

Not so. I didn’t sell these skills to get the job. I was already doing the same role (A) for a rival company and was approached by my new firm to do the same job. My CV had my previous occupation on it but they didn’t know that when they invited me for an interview and i’m sure i’d have got the job if i’d left it off. They already had two people doing job B. They’ve since left (let go) and i’ve replaced them.

all good advice above but ultimately it comes down to money, you want more and the company don’t want to give you more (do they ever?). They will have 101 reasons why they can’t but assuming they are vaguely competent they most likely WILL know your true value and if you leave do they care or not.

Unfortunately the only surefire way of finding this out is to offer your resignation. Don’t just threaten to leave, loads of people do that without following it through. You need to have an actual job offer from somewhere else.

It’s amazing then how, if they value you (presumably they do cos you have worked there nine years and know lots more than just how to do the one job you were employed for) then the 101 reasons disappear and you get offered a pay rise to match to keep you on board.

I do know an ex-colleague who mocked up a job offer letter using MS word and some competitor logo’s downloaded off the web. Printed it out, folded it a bit and then took it to his line manager and said what do you think? Boom, instant pay rise. But you need ballons of steel (or loose morals) to do something like that (and it’s probably illegal too).

My two pennies, the very fact you are asking for a pay rise is enough for most employers to know your position. If you are going to threaten to reduce your hours I would seek professional advice, some CAB’s may be able to help. If you know your position for sure then you aren’t making decisions in the dark. I wouldn’t antagonise anyone until you are sure of your position. Basically I am saying you don’t need to show your whole hand. Tell them why you deserve a pay rise. If they say no, find out where you stand on A) legally reducing your role B) getting a new job. Be tactical not hot headed.

if you are getting paid just over half of what they are charging you out at i doubt you will get far but good luck. i have been paid 1/7th of my chargeout rate in previous engineering jobs, dont forget they have to cover overheads, your pension, pay when there isnt much work etc.

Firstly, needs more details of the two different roles as that does have a bearing IMO. Secondly it sounds like they have you over a barrel if you’ve stayed that long without a pay rise or recognition of the other role and are on a non=standard contract (4 days off a week), they likely know that means more to you than a bit more money so you’d stay even if they refused a pay rise.

That said if I didn’t feel valued I’d be looking at moving elsewhere. I’m not really doing what my job description says either but I got a decent pay rise a couple of months back to reflect that (along with a thanks, which goes a long way). Mind you as a lot of my company’s growth is via acquisition there are some people that report to me (with less skills and experience) that are on more money due to TUPE – it winds me up a bit but at the same time I realise they can’t just bump up all the existing staff salaries just because they’ve acquired a company that pays above average.

Taking some form of action (refusing to do the other role) I think is shooting yourself in the foot and you’d like wouldn’t have that foot to stand on come a tribunal if you went that way after getting fired.

Anyone else wondering how the meeting went?

Well… a big fat NO as expected. The annoying thing is they had made their mind up before the meeting started so it didn’t really matter how well i presented my case. Apparently they all really value me and what i bring to the company, but not enough to pay. Must try that line next time i get the shopping in 😆

I’m relieved tbh, and happy with how i came across (professional and polite – very unlike me 😀 ) but it’s time to start job hunting.

Oh, role A (current job) is Prepress operator with 20 yrs experience and role B is Graphic Designer (senior) with 28 years experience. Both linked i suppose as one feeds the other, but it’s very rare to find someone who is capable as both – hence hard to find peers to judge my salary against.

Cheers for the advice all.

glad you didn’t embarrass yourself or put yourself on a bad footing

My advice still holds good. Get yourself another job, tender your resignation and watch how suddenly they will crumble when they realise you are serious and they will be left with a big experience gap as the brown smelly stuff hits the twirly thing.

And when they do come back crawling, don’t take their offer. Press them for extra.

You don’t necessarily have to state that you’re no longer going to do anything related to role B, that’s a hard line to take. You can go about in a more subtle way; when asked anything to do with role B, just answer with a disinterested “I don’t know” or “I’m not really sure” or “ask X, s/he’s the designer” etc.
They’ll know what you’re doing, but there isn’t much they can do about it. They can’t discipline you for not knowing/doing stuff which isn’t in your job description/normal duties.

And when they do come back crawling, don’t take their offer. Press them for extra.

Haha, i spent ages last night working out how much i wanted and how low i was prepared to go. I think they would shit bricks if they knew the figure (and i don’t think i was being greedy).

Toys stayed firmly in the pram wrecker. I plan on doing exactly what i was before. I might even put some extra effort into the design side of things so i can add it to the portfolio.

Get another job pronto.
I would be belligerent enough to hand my notice in now and see how they go.
They obviously know that you do not have another job to go to so they have nothing to lose by turning you down at this stage, so get a rocket up em and move on.

looks like you played it right and they let you know how they felt.
now you know its time to get out of dodge, move on and look to the future.

I had a similar scenario.

I initially asked for a pay rise owing to the huge additional skilled work I was bringing to the company. They agreed but it took them over 6 months before paperwork started and then subsequent months (3 or 4) of more feet dragging.

I went ahead and found another job with pay that was way above their initial pay rise offer. I handed in my notice and two days later they came back with a pretty incredible offer, 35% pay rise (which was a little more than the new job) and my own office within a month. I didn’t really have any interest by that stage and left.

Sounds like you’ll be in the same position! Keep working hard though. You never know what the offer could be. Fingers crossed 😮

I’d have asked them in the meeting to put themselves in your shoes, that you don’t feel you’re being paid in accordance with your skills and experience for the roles that you’re performing and you therefore feel the company doesn’t value you.

Any half decent manager would see that as code for you’re going to start looking elsewhere and if that still doesn’t trigger a pay rise then you can assume either the company is making a loss so they can’t afford to pay you more (but would like to) or they don’t get a shit and aren’t worried about replacing you. Either you’re better off out of there.

Just start coming into the office in a suit from time to time… This normally gets the rumours starting…

(only works if you don’t normally wear suits!)

Yeah, book the morning off then turn up in the afternoon in a suit 😉

Do this every time you have a shave and haircut

Keep changing one word on your LinkedIn every week. It’ll send out notifications “XYZ has an updated LinkedIn Profile! See it here”

If you really think they’d pre determined their answer, you probably need to get out anyway as they aren’t ever going to appreciate you till your gone.

Oh, role A (current job) is Prepress operator with 20 yrs experience and role B is Graphic Designer (senior) with 28 years experience.

Aaah – the print industry! Been in it 30 years myself.

Decent jobs are like rocking-horse-doings as the trade is being killed by the big boys (I’m buying print in from Germany now), and automation is the key.

Unfortunately, I’d say there would be a queue of recently laid off people willing to take your job if you left.

In all honesty the only way to make more cash would be to build up a side-line using your graphic design skills. People want to take advantage of internet print rates but don’t have the skills to prepare files properly.