Raining cats again? Pah, summer’s over.

“As I said Earlier, what I saw on Friday were a large group of people on bikes, deliberately stopping in the middle of junctions (not travelling through it)
This was done purely to cause problems for other people.

Also massive groups jumping red lights (not being brought through a red light by traffic police) and then stopping in the middle of the junction and milling around to cause obstruction.”

I agree that such behaviour is not conducive to the smooth flow of all traffic, and may very well be seen as antagonistic, and in some cases it may well be intended as such. On CM rides I’ve been on, this has happened, and it is not idea, however when you have a large mass of cyclists who wish to remain together as a group, this is an unfortunate occurrence. Rarely do such incidents cause more than a few minutes delay for other road users.

i think one of the main issues is that Cm does cause ‘problems’ in a large and extremely congested city such as London. CM rides in other cities globally have different effects on traffic flow, but this is more down to how cities are planned in terms of road infrastructure than the fault of the riders. A single vehicle breakdown somewhere on a busy main traffic artery causes far more congestion than CM does. Having been in a car that’s been held up temporarily by a CM ride, I can see how drivers can be frustrated, but driving in a city such as London, you must accept that delays are inevitable. Perhaps if more information was given about CM rides, drivers could make more informed choices about their journeys. The unorganised nature of CM does little to cater for this however, but if drivers were aware delays in central London are likely on the last Friday of the month, then they have the opportunity to adjust their plans accordingly. I don’t see why a group of people who choose to ride their bikes in the city should give up something they enjoy, simply because it might inconvenience a relatively small number of other people.

It’s clear that there is an ideological dislike of CM and it’s riders, by quite a few on here. Having read some of the threads on here, it’s also apparent that some people will find cause for annoyance in many things, even the smallest issues, so perhaps not all those expressing opinions on this thread are particularly objective and open minded.

I think the consensus on here at least is that CM has a poor public image. And in some cases, for good reason. It’s the negative aspects that should be addressed, to ensure a better solution is found. CM will continue regardless until such time such activities are outlawed at least, so better to seek positive solutions than continue with needless hostility, surely?

“what like arresting folk? that went well eh”

People were not arrested for causing any genuine obstruction or threat. This should be made clear. They were arrested and detained because the police deemed it necessary, without apparent good reason. So far, no police statement that I’m aware of has given justifiable cause for the arrest and detention of so many people simply for riding bikes along a public highway. I think we should be more concerned with the possible breaches of human rights, in a so-called democracy, than with any problems caused to traffic flow.

So far I’ve not seen anyone come up with any ideas of how to promote cycling in our cities, more effectively. Just a lot of moaning and prejudice. Maybe it would be more productive to seek solutions, than continue to be negative.

But it seems logical to expect that people who are passionate enough about a subject to join what is arguably a protest group about it would have an interest in that subject above and beyond what would be expected of ‘casual’ participants. No?

Not if all they want to do is ride to the shops in peace. Maybe they’re not interested in identifying themselves as a cyclist by the STW definition. They maybe just live too far from work to walk and don’t like busses.

BTW, I wear jeans while riding probably more than anything else. I commute about 20km each day in them and do various other errands during the week in them.

You commute 20k a day in jeans? Are you a masochist? 😯

Yeah, I just ride slow so as not to sweat. I used to bring a change of clothes and have a shower at work but I found with all the faff I wasn’t really saving much time.

I just try to relax and enjoy the ride 🙂

Having been in a car that’s been held up temporarily by a CM ride, I can see how drivers can be frustrated, but driving in a city such as London, you must accept that delays are inevitable.

Dear god! Whats going on in your head? There’s nowt ‘inevitable’ about being held up by some bunch of jokers whose primary aim seems to be to stick two fingers up at the police. Any more than if I decide to park a cow in the middle of a busy junction. Its idiocy. Pure and simple.

At least that’s how its interpreted by everyone else other than your-good-self and the other 371 ‘activists’ in the country who are so misguided that they believe that you can win support by annoying people 🙄

I agree that such behaviour is not conducive to the smooth flow of all traffic, and may very well be seen as antagonistic, and in some cases it may well be intended as such.

So there are deliberate attempts to be antagonistic?

i think one of the main issues is that Cm does cause ‘problems’ in a large and extremely congested city such as London. CM rides in other cities globally have different effects on traffic flow, but this is more down to how cities are planned in terms of road infrastructure than the fault of the riders

So large groups of cyclists who set out to protest are not at fault, it’s that pesky history, presumably we should be blaming the Romans?

Having been in a car that’s been held up temporarily by a CM ride, I can see how drivers can be frustrated, but driving in a city such as London, you must accept that delays are inevitable.

Certainly on a Friday, when the assorted rent-a-mob turn up to ‘antagonise’.

I don’t see why a group of people who choose to ride their bikes in the city should give up something they enjoy, simply because it might inconvenience a relatively small number of other people

Oh, right, it’s a social event then, for ‘enjoyment’… give over.

so perhaps not all those expressing opinions on this thread are particularly objective and open minded.

You are being told what people think. If that doesn’t agree with your point of view, calling them not objective or closed minded makes you seem a bit simple.

So far I’ve not seen anyone come up with any ideas of how to promote cycling in our cities, more effectively. Just a lot of moaning and prejudice. Maybe it would be more productive to seek solutions, than continue to be negative.

What, you mean negative like the protest that occurs every last Friday, that most normal everyday cyclists see as a load of unwashed fools upsetting the rest of the city?

Crtical Mass appeals to the people who it appeals to, the rest of us look on in disgust at people using a mode of transport as a way to get attention by annoying other people.

But it seems logical to expect that people who are passionate enough about a subject to join what is arguably a protest group about it would have an interest in that subject above and beyond what would be expected of ‘casual’ participants. No?

I agree they should take an interest in the subject, but it doesn’t follow that it should be reflected in their dress or choice of bike. What if their interest is in promoting cycling as a normal form of transport which doesn’t require special effort, e.g. as in Oxford or Cambridge where a “considered choice” might be whether to put on a jacket, or attempt to cycle with an open umbrella in the rain.

They were arrested and detained because the police deemed it necessary, without apparent good reason

… and charged for assaulting a police officer, causing a breach of the peace (or something like that), and for being in possession of a knife.

So far I’ve not seen anyone come up with any ideas of how to promote cycling in our cities

because this is a thread about “cyclists” being foolish, ignoring restrictions advised to them beforehand, and then getting the hump when it got out of hand.

There are plenty of other threads, including one just the other day, about what can be done to improve roads and cycle paths/lanes and other infrastructure, for ALL users. Why should we start discussing that here?

I asked this earlier on but what is the difference between a CM ride and a car or motorbike rally? They all cause disruption but it seems that people take the view that bicycle is not to be enjoyed on the road whereas it’s acceptable in a car or on a motorbike.

I stand up to be counted every time I go out on my bike, every time I commute on it, every time I use it for exercise, every time I use it for transport.

I don’t set off on a Friday night to deliberately get in other road users way to prove that I can.

CM is counter-productive because it annoys other road users and does us no favours at all.

Why not join in? Because I don’t agree that pissing people off is a good way to protest.

Well put. CM in practice seems to be about ‘them and us’ and creating divisiveness. I don’t think that’s the way forward at all.

Junkyard – Member
What drac said.

Nice the guy stepped into to help the female copper so they were not all bad

Plain clothes plod IMO. Solely from his Home Office approved “get back” and fighting stance

I asked this earlier on but what is the difference between a CM ride and a car or motorbike rally?

Well, for a start, the car rally above was *organised* – there is a known route, disruption caused can be planned for, known contacts, marshalls, things like that that make everything run smoothly.

I’ll point out again, that there is a known route that is agreed in advance with the relevant authorities – this alone serves to minimise disruption and sets it apart from CM rides.

They all cause disruption but it seems that people take the view that bicycle is not to be enjoyed on the road whereas it’s acceptable in a car or on a motorbike.

There are hundreds of organised cycling events up and down the country, on an almost daily basis, from races to sportives to mass charity rides like the london to brighton, that are all able to work with the police and authorities to celebrate cycling, where we see the police bend over backwards to make the events safe and minimise disruption, and give people a great day out enjoying cycling on the road!

why should CM be any different?

Why, when asked politley by police to stay away from the Olympic routes, did they feel the need to ignore this, go North of the river and subsequently act like a bunch of total penises – they could have quite happily gone out and celebrated cycling and enjoyed riding their bikes without causing trouble for anyone, instead they chose to delibaretley create a confrontation and spoil it for everyone

bunch of cocks!

when you have a large mass of cyclists who wish to remain together as a group

Why, out of interest? What are you gaining? Genuine question, I’m not being argumentative here.

I’d have thought that once you get much beyond, what, half a dozen riders say, it becomes less of a social experience and more of an exercise in generating as many participants as possible. Given that you call yourselves “critical mass” I’d presume this is entirely the prime intention. No? So if you’re not an activist group going out of your way to cause disruption and genuinely are just out for a fun ride, why is your primary raison d’etre sheer weight of numbers?

Why, with the entire country to go at, did CM London have to choose the one place to ride that they’d been asked no to go, if not to intentionally show defiance?

Roads get closed for events all the time. It’s not an infringement of human rights, it’s just an exceptional circumstance. I walked several miles at the weekend to get round Box Hill because all the surrounding roads were shut to facilitate the Olympic cycling road race. How far do you reckon I’d have got if I’d tried to take my car through the road block, along with a hundred of my closest friends, because we “always drive there”?

I wonder, idly, what CM’s actions would have been if historically they’d always ridden round Box Hill on Saturdays.

On a related subject, whatever happened to “reclaim the streets”? Or is the CockMonkey ride a sort of leftover of that “movement”?

It’s clear that there is an ideological dislike of CM and it’s riders, by quite a few on here

Not so much an ideological dislike i simply think their methods are counter productive…ideologically I tend to agree/sympathise.

People were not arrested for causing any genuine obstruction or threat. This should be made clear.

I only saw a video of people assaulting coppers

They were arrested and detained because the police deemed it necessary, without apparent good reason. So far, no police statement that I’m aware of has given justifiable cause for the arrest and detention of so many people simply for riding bikes along a public highway. I think we should be more concerned with the possible breaches of human rights, in a so-called democracy, than with any problems caused to traffic flow.

they were told why the protest was not allowed – you are free to agree or disagree [ I disagree with the reasons given- but you cannot say that no reason was given]. It was either a protest or people pootling along ..it would be stretching the point to breaking to claim it was just some mates riding together for fun with no message to deliver. Ergo, in the broadest sense, it is a protest.

Why, when asked politley by police to stay away from the Olympic routes, did they feel the need to ignore this, go North of the river and subsequently act like a bunch of total penises – they could have quite happily gone out and celebrated cycling and enjoyed riding their bikes without causing trouble for anyone, instead they chose to delibaretley create a confrontation and spoil it for everyone

THIS – it now gives cyclists a bad name so it has achieved the exact opposite of what they want

You may wish to consider your responsibilities to others whilst banging on about your rights as the two are intrinsically interlinked in a society.

IME of participating in direct action the people are very aware of their own rights and have little to no regard of others rights or their own responsibilities. I stopped getting involved as I felt , very very saddly, that Da Babylon had a point.

however when you have a large mass of cyclists who wish to remain together as a group, this is an unfortunate occurrence. Rarely do such incidents cause more than a few minutes delay for other road users.

Mikeconnor, I’m not sure you have actually been reading what I wrote.

They were riding through the red lights for the sole purpose of holding up traffic, not to stay together as a group.

They were milling around, riding round in circles, in the middle of busy junctions, purely to cause disruption.

They were stopping in large groups on crossroads regardless of the traffic lights, purely to stop traffic from moving.

I presume you were not there on Friday in London. And as such are speaking about what happened from a position of ignorance ??

“Dear god! Whats going on in your head? There’s nowt ‘inevitable’ about being held up by some bunch of jokers whose primary aim seems to be to stick two fingers up at the police.”

It’s quite clear you have little or no understanding of CM rides, as the ‘primary objective’ is not to do as you say. And I think you’re misunderstanding me; I was talking about the inevitability of delays if you regularly commute in a city the size of london. i wasn’t just referring to times when CM is happening. Believe me, being stuck in a tailback following a breakdown somewhere like the Blackwall tunnel is far, far more frustrating than having to wait a few minutes whilst a group of cyclist clear a junction. And events like that are a lot more frequent than CM.

You and others seem to be hung up on the appearance of CM riders. Strange, because my experience is that the riders are not on homogenous group, quite the opposite. To pour scorn on someone simply because of your perception based on their appearance, is very prejudicial, and says more about your judgemental nature than it does about them, and somewhat diminishes the value of your opinion.

The videos they post tend to make them look REALLY bad…and given that those are the ones that they’ve posted/edited in order to try and make themselves look good you sort-of lose sympathy.

The ‘police assault’ one from the other day was particularly laughable.

Standard tactic seems to be massively antagonise everyone to court police attention, police turn up, jostle the police until they attempt to arrest you, jostle them some more along with dozens of your mates, then start wailing about police assault and civil rights violations. All the while a crowd of sycophants film the entire thing in shakeycam before heavily editing the footage and sticking it on their utterly unreadable blogs.

It’s a shame, because I support some of the broad objectives of CM, but their methods turn near enough everyone against them.

It’s quite clear you have little or no understanding of CM rides, as the ‘primary objective’ is not to do as you say.

What is the primary objective?

It’s quite clear you have little or no understanding of CM rides, as the ‘primary objective’ is not to do as you say.And I think you’re misunderstanding me; I was talking about the inevitability of delays if you regularly commute in a city the size of london.

Sorry Mike, could you try and be just a little bit more patronising please? There’s a shred of I-know-best condescension you may have missed.

I spent years commuting into the centre of Manchester, daily, by bike. I know we’re a mere sleepy backwater compared to you dashing young blades in the big city, but even we are aware of the concept of congestion

But Critical Mass has one essential ingredient that none of your other examples do. They’re causing congestion ON PURPOSE!. If some cab driver, as a protest about conditions for cab drivers, just abandoned his cab slap bang in the middle of a massively busy box junction in the middle of the city, and strolled off, what would the reaction be? Seriously? Would they say “WOOOOOOOOOO YEAH!!!! LETS ALL GET BEHIND OUR BLACK CAB DRIVERS AND SUPPORT THEIR RIGHTS!!!!”

Or would they just think “what a stupid selfish, mindless ****!”

Have a guess. Go on!

You and others seem to be hung up on the appearance of CM riders. Strange, because my experience is that the riders are not on homogenous group, quite the opposite

I’m afraid, from my experience (and I used to endure their weekly shennaigans), they all look exactly the same. ie: all trying too hard to be ‘different’

I was talking about the inevitability of delays if you regularly commute in a city the size of london.

Not in my experience.

“Crtical Mass appeals to the people who it appeals to, the rest of us look on in disgust at people using a mode of transport as a way to get attention by annoying other people.”

So, you speak for everyone else then? Can you qualify this with any factual evidence?

“I only saw a video of people assaulting coppers”

Whereas i saw a video of a police officer using disproportionate force against the first guy with the bike, a woman trying to get him to calm down perhaps, then the officer seemingly losing control and becoming quite agitated. At one point, he shoved his female colleague away, when she appeared to be trying to calm him down. He had to be led away by other officers, eventually. Opinions are purely subjective however, and none of us who weren’t actually there can say for sure what really happened. Other than only one person was arrested for assault. That individual could claim he was trying to prevent harm to others. Again, it’s all down to subjective opinion. As we don;t know the motivations for that person’s actions we can’t be objective about it.

“I presume you were not there on Friday in London. And as such are speaking about what happened from a position of ignorance ??”

I wasn’t at that particular junction, and i have already stated that there are times when the group stops and blocks junctions, however they don’t usually do so for very long, just a few minutes, then move away. How long was that particular junction blocked for?

Again though, it’s a relatively small number of motorists ‘inconvenienced’. The cyclists could argue that the motorists’ presence in such large number inconveniences them. Who is right here? I am inconvenieced by motorists practically every journey I make by bike, yet i accept that as part of riding in a large city. I’d quite like to see motorists banned completely from a large number of London’s streets, but i also accept that my own wishes may not be to the liking of others. Compromise is the key here. But the main problem which exists is that instead of sharing the space on our roads, we end up having to compete for it. Which is why we arrive at a position of conflict.

It’s quite clear you have little or no understanding of CM rides, as the ‘primary objective’ is not to do as you say.

It is if the police ask you not to go to a certain area and to avoid the olympic routes – and you then choose not only to ingore this, but to go out wiht the very aim of disrupting the olympic routes at the exact time that you know people will be heading for the stadium to take part in one of the biggest events ever to occur in London. and block the roads whilst shouting ‘F*** the olympics’

But of course, its a celebration of cycling, not a protest 🙄

I also notice that Critical Masses early attempts at prpopaganda, announcing that the police had arrested them because they were blocking David Beckham from getting to the stadium, sort of fell flat, bacause about twenty eight million of us saw that he wasn’t even travelling there by car in the first place 😆

It is if the police ask you not to go to a certain area and to avoid the olympic routes – and you then choose not only to ingore this, but to go out wiht the very aim of disrupting the olympic routes at the exact time that you know people will be hading for the stadium to take part in one of the biggest events ever to occur in London.

I note that this point has been made several times and is being ignored by the “right on” brigade.

I suspect it’s because their reason-detre is one of deliberate disruption and aggravation. That being the case, the appeals to reason from those tasked with ensuring the smooth running of the event are naturally falling on deaf ears. The little tykes…

Compromise is the key here. But the main problem which exists is that instead of sharing the space on our roads, we end up having to compete for it. Which is why we arrive at a position of conflict.

So you define ‘Compromise’ as riding around deliberately delaying peoples journey’s and generally inconveniencing them?

Have you ever thought about a diplomatic career with the UN? 😆

The CM-ers might also want to consider that appeals to the rest of us, in regard to what they see as oppression of their “rights”, are likely to be ignored because we are the ones likely to be/are being inconvenienced by their little display of throwing the toys out of the pram.

I suspect it’s because their reason-detre is one of deliberate disruption and aggravation.

No Mr W – how could you suggest such a thing? its a ‘celebration of cycling’ 👿

“Sorry Mike, could you try and be just a little bit more patronising please? There’s a shred of I-know-best condescension you may have missed.

I spent years commuting into the centre of Manchester, daily, by bike. I know we’re a mere sleepy backwater compared to you dashing young blades in the big city, but even we are aware of the concept of congestion”

I am talking about CM in London, i have no experience of the Manchester event. I understood this discussion to be about the London event. I will stand by my comments about you being ignorant about the London event, as your comments do not reflect my actual experience of CM rides here.Have you ever been on a London CM ride?

“Not so much an ideological dislike i simply think their methods are counter productive”

Whereas I, as a London cyclist, think CM does have some positive effect. From the perspective of a participant and a bystander. Cycling has become markedly more popular in London in the last few years, so it could be argued that CM, Skyrides and many other cycling events and campaigns are all doing their bit to raise the profile of cycling here.

If some cab driver, as a protest about conditions for cab drivers, just abandoned his cab slap bang in the middle of a massively busy box junction in the middle of the city, and strolled off, what would the reaction be? Seriously? Would they say “WOOOOOOOOOO YEAH!!!! LETS ALL GET BEHIND OUR BLACK CAB DRIVERS AND SUPPORT THEIR RIGHTS!!!!”

Or would they just think “what a stupid selfish, mindless ****!”

Have a guess. Go on!

A large number of taxi drivers staged a protest last week which caused some disruption, and many people sympathise with their argument. Personally I don’t think taxi drivers are ‘stupid, selfish and mindless’, but i cannot speak for all others. Personally I support their cause, as I believe they have a genuine grievance which should be addressed.

I concede that my experience of CM as a participant and observer is different to that of others, but I am also aware that some on here are speaking through ignorance and prejudice, as seems to be the case quite frequently on this forum, sadly.

A lot of mountain biking in England and Wales constitutes tresspass. There are many who take a dim view of such activity, and would like to see it stopped. Do you who oppose CM align yourselves with those who oppose mountain bikeing, or do you believe you are entitled to act as you see fit?

Cabbies did demonstrate.
Grid locked parlament square and park lane for two hours.
Have a guess how many got nicked?
Out of the cyclists, 3 have been rightfully charged.
The other 178 were detained at stations for many hours, with no water or toilets, and then had there bikes confiscated.
Jesus, car drivers have killed people and spent less time in the cells than this lot.

Do you who oppose CM align yourselves with those who oppose mountain bikeing, or do you believe you are entitled to act as you see fit?

Whereas I, as a London cyclist, think CM does have some positive effect. From the perspective of a participant and a bystander. Cycling has become markedly more popular in London in the last few years, so it could be argued that CM, Skyrides and many other cycling events and campaigns are all doing their bit to raise the profile of cycling here.

I’m a London cyclist and I disagree with one key element of your post. Can you guess what it is?

Skyrides, Boris Bikes, blue superhighways, better signposting of quieter bike routes, Cycle to Work scheme and an overall improvement in the acceptance of cycling as a mode of transport have all greatly improved. I see no evidence that CM had any impact on any of that. I can only see them, as others have said, as a negative impact on cycling.

Stop doing your PR/Press officer job on here, and get to controlling the idiots who ruin the reputation of cyclists instead.

It is if the police ask you not to go to a certain area and to avoid the olympic routes – and you then choose not only to ingore this, but to go out wiht the very aim of disrupting the olympic routes at the exact time that you know people will be heading for the stadium to take part in one of the biggest events ever to occur in London. And block the roads whilst shouting ‘F*** the olympics’

The police do not have the legal power to demand people avoid certain areas unless it is to prevent breach of the peace, or for safety reasons. The police order was legally invalid, as it applied to a ‘protest’, which CM, as has been defined in a house of Lords ruling, is not. That no-one has actually been arrested under any law relating to public protest, suggests the police actions were in fact illegal. If they were acting to protect public safety etc, then why did they not also prevent the free progress of other road users and pedestrians? Why did they target only cyclists? Why was a person who had nothing to do with the CM ride arrested? Why weren’t correct procedures concerning rights on arrest followed?

A police officer cannot simply stop you doing something that is lawful, without good reason. So far, I have seen nothing that supports police actions in this instance.

I’ve always thought CM were a bunch of well meaning but misguided fools. My opinion hasn’t changed.

Face it, the police did what they did for reasons of Olympic PR, not for pubic safety or any other excuse. The powers don’t want any taint on their Olympics.

I’m not going to start defending the actions of CM, as some of you seem to know more about what actually goes on than me*. I had assumed it was just a ride through the city at a very leisurely pace with the protection of big numbers and making a point about bikes, what I have seen of CM in manchester (not much admittedly) has backed that up.

Complaining about rljing was somewhat amusing considering the number on here who do it (no I haven’t been taking note if those complaining about CM doing it have done it themselves) hardly crime of the century and as I found last week keeping a small group of cyclists together is difficult enought hrough junctions, but I will admit that RLJing en masse will harm “the cause” more than the odd rider doing it.

However finally gettying to my point a go slow does appear to be widely held as a political tool. Lorry drivers on the motorway against fuel prices (bit of a canute-ism) taxi drivers on local roads round manchester recently, coz they aren’t allowed in bus lanes. It’s not just CM who use this tactic, whether it is counter productive will be a tricky one to answer.

Going out riding on your own is admirable but it’s hardly bringing political pressure to bear is it?

*and some of it does seem out of order

“I see no evidence that CM had any impact on any of that.”

So, because you personally have no knowledge of something, it therefore isn’t fact? As I have said; many of those who participate in CM rides are active in campaigning for better provision for cyclists. They use CM as a way of furthering their campaigns. Which you would be aware of if you actually participated in CM rides yourself.

As for Skyrides etc; I agree that they have a positive effect, but how great is that effect? Skyrides simply use existing cycle routes (which many CM participants have actively campaigned for), and are aimed at those new to cycling and recreational cyclists, rather than regular commuters. Boris bikes are fantastic, and a genuine benefit to Londoners. Indeed, several were present on Friday’s CM ride.

“Stop doing your PR/Press officer job on here, and get to controlling the idiots who ruin the reputation of cyclists instead.”

I do not act as ‘PR’ for CM in any way, I am merely expressing my own opinion and trying to seek better solutions to the situation we have at present. I have and will continue to challenge behaviour by individuals which damages the image of CM. What do you do to help promote cycling in London?

Spot on glen.
Remember”it’s not our olympics, it’s theirs” 😀

have and will continue to challenge behaviourby individuals which damages the image of CM.

You busy like bee…

oh and I do wonder if those who claim to very rarely have incidents with drivers are riding around with their eyes metaphorically shut. There’s sections of roads near me huge wide ones with loads of space for bikes and cars to get along harmoniously with absolutley no reason for any confrontation at all and yet still, every once in a while I’ll get an idiot buzzing me for no reason, just to piss me off. Nothing to do with riding style, just the odd dickhead car driver.

Guess some riders must just be lucky eh? Very lucky.