with no organisation who is going to tell the nobs to leave?

The other participants.

At the rather larger Countryside Alliance march, some BNP asshats tried to make their opinions known. They were given a very, VERY clear message that their opinion was not in the slightest bit welcome. No injury, no harm, just force of opinion.

There you go DONK you just need folk with guns to explain to them to stop

Pretty sure your opinion of how they are organised is correct

Seems to me this CM tried to provke a reaction & those responsible are now whinging because they bit off a bit more than they can chew.

Personally I wholly concur with the earlier comments made by Charlie the Bikemonger in respect of the importance of the issues and the reasons why Critical Mass exist.

However, where I disagree is over the wisdom of the approach taken on Friday. The reason for this is that one of the major problems we are up against is being seen as a group to be an embuggerance to the rest of humanity. Behaving very publically in a way that reinforces the stereotype aids no one.

I fully understand and respect the frustration and anger that exists, but personally believe that portraying cycling positively, as a mainstream activity and one that brings us as a nation great credit was not enhanced by CM’s actions on Friday. There are and where plenty of ways of achieving similar levels of coverage without being seen to behave like loonies, on what was an incredibly important and sensitive day. Remember we are still a target and that evening was likely to be one of the highest possible risk periods.

More damage done to the reputation of cycling and cyclists rather than anything achieved on our behalf IMHO.

embuggerance

Quality!

Although, I’m a bit confused now – are they cockmonkeys or asshats?

Some interesting comments and points of view, however I’m wondering how many of those being very negative towards CM have ever been on a CM ride. Because some comments seem highly ignorant of the reality, and more like reactionary prejudice.

I agree that there are a minority of people who seek to use CM as a platform for their own issues, however CM is as inclusive as possible, so there will always be elements which others may not see eye to eye with. regarding accusations that CM riders are trouble makers; there is very rarely any trouble on CM rides, and even more rarely any arrests. From what I can gather online and from accounts from eyewitnesses, it appears that the ride was stopped by large numbers of police at Bow church, who then directed the riders into a side street where many of them were then arrested and detained. There had, up until that point, other than the incident on Blackfriars road, been no trouble at all. There have now been allegations of assault by police officers made, by several of those arrested and detained, and it does now sadly seem possible that police acted unlawfully in detaining people who had committed no crime and without sufficient evidence to prove they were likely to commit any crime. People were detained simply for riding their bikes along a public highway. Which is perfectly legal. The police cannot simply dictate where people can and cannot ride, on public roads, unless there are safety issues. Other road users were able to carry on without hindrance, so there can be no argument that the cyclists posed any threat to public order or safety. Of the 183 people arrested, only 3 have been charged with any offence, suggesting that the vast majority of arrests were unnecessary. This does seem to be yet another example of overzealous policing. Indeed, one person who wasn’t even part of the group was arrested, simply for riding nearby. I understand that several lawyers were at the ride, and it’s highly likely the Met police will now face legal action for their treatment of law-abiding citizens.

Politics aside; to those who condemn CM as ‘not helping the cause of cycling’, why not join in with the next CM ride, where you will then have an opportunity to express your own views, and be able to meet and share ideas with others? If you feel that CM could be improved, why not get involved and do your bit to enhance the image of cycling? As I mentioned earlier, many of those on CM rides are active in campaigning for better provision for cyclists, and would welcome positive input from others. We may well be diverse in terms of who we are and where we’re from, but surely we all share a common goal?

CM may be imperfect, but it’s an opportunity to stand up and be counted, which surely must be better than passively accepting a situation which is flawed and in need of change.

Some interesting comments and points of view, however I’m wondering how many of those being very negative towards CM have ever been on a CM ride. Because some comments seem highly ignorant of the reality, and more like reactionary prejudice.

Never been on a ride, but I was in London on Friday and saw plants of what was going on.
Looked to me like a load of people were just trying to cause as much inconvenience to anyone else who happened to be in the area trying to get on with their lives.
Red light jumping, stopping en masse in the middle of junctions etc.

Not a great impression to make.

I stand up to be counted every time I go out on my bike, every time I commute on it, every time I use it for exercise, every time I use it for transport.

I don’t set off on a Friday night to deliberately get in other road users way to prove that I can.

CM is counter-productive because it annoys other road users and does us no favours at all.

Why not join in? Because I don’t agree that pissing people off is a good way to protest.

Mike, most of people on stw haven’t been on a normal ride in years, let alone a cm ride 😀

“We can’t all be well educated, middle class and middle aged”

Oh well, one out of three… 🙁

It’s interesting also that some of you find CM ‘antagonistic’, when that is not actually the intention. If a large group of cyclists blocks a junction as they travel through it, how is that different to other road vehicles doing the same? Surely many, many more people were inconvenienced in their daily lives by the Olympic road races this weekend, or by events like the London Marathon? CM is not a daily event, it’s once a month, for a few hours, and only in a small part of London. Every single cyclist has as much right to be on those roads at any time, as anyone else. What about the numbers of motor vehicles moving very slowly at rush hour, holding up and inconveniencing cyclists, who could travel much more quickly if it weren’t for cars lorries and vans blocking their way?

Sop, surely this is more a matter of subjective opinion than anything else? I also saw the ride go past where I was on Friday evening, and almost everyone around was saying how great it was to see so many cyclists together. There are many who think CM is great, which contradicts the opinions of those who are against it. Again, it comes down to subjective opinion.

If people are annoyed that CM hinders their progress, then surely they must also be annoyed at the myriad other problems they encounter on their journeys, such as roadworks, other traffic, buses etc. I live near a busy road artery, and regularly see huge traffic jams, without a cyclist in sight. Anyone who drives on the M25 will know that you can often be stuck in a jam for ages. Cyclists aren’t the problem. If you feel inconvenienced that a large number of cyclists is blocking your progress, then why not seek an alternative route? How do you feel if you’re stuck behind other traffic? Why not take up cycling yourself, maybe it would be a quicker and easier way to get around?

The majority of cyclists on CM rides endeavour to be polite and courteous to other road users as much as possible. They will always, for example, immediately give way to an emergency vehicle. Just because they don’t all ride single-file so that motorists can whizz past, does not make them inconsiderate. Maybe it’s the motorists who should accept that they are in fact causing much greater problems in an extremely congested city, and change their behaviour to show consideration for others?

why not join in with the next CM ride, where you will then have an opportunity to express your own views, and be able to meet and share ideas with others?

because it is now seen to be at best a campaign organisation, and at worst a protest organisation. it may not be, but that’s how the public see it (now).

I don’t go on a “friendly, monthly ride” to express my views, I go on rides to ride with like minded cyclists!

Using legal technicalities regarding what is and isn’t allowed and what the police can and can’t do, is not “just a ride”. Pretty sure Police do have powers to temporarily halt traffic and people from accessing public rights of way.

Seems to me this CM tried to provke a reaction & those responsible are now whinging because they bit off a bit more than they can chew.

Can’t disagree with that.

I really hope that the Metropolitan/City police do not refer this back to the court system to determine if future rides are a ride or a protest.

Other road users were able to carry on without hindrance, so there can be no argument that the cyclists posed any threat to public order or safety.

What about the people blocking cars who are half across the junction legally, so the rest of your protest can ride through a red light. Were those road users hindered in any way in your opinion, or are you just going to pitch in tomorrow with another claim of police brutality? Interesting that you can’t even understand what bad publicity you generate for all of us when there are four pages of mostly negative comments on a cycling forum. You seem to be ignoring what is actually going on at the moment in London as well, or did you see that as a further way of provoking conflict in an already stretched transport system?

It’s interesting also that some of you find CM ‘antagonistic’, when that is not actually the intention.

Whilst I know nothing about CM, the comments here would suggest that whilst this might not be their “intention”, it would seem to be the net result. Perhaps you / they need to review the unintended consequences of your actions?

Not to take sides – as I say, I’d never heard of CM a week ago – but it should speak volumes that this anti-CM sentiment is coming from a cycling forum rather than, say, PistonHeads?

I don’t disagree that there are other annoyances on the public highways. But I don’t follow the logic that this somehow makes it acceptable, laudable even, to compound those annoyances. Motorists cause problems, sure, but “two wrongs” and all that.

Cyclists have as much right to be on the roads as any other transport. But I’m not sure what’s to be gained by avoidably antagonising others.

Where did Crikey’s post go?

I thought it was rather apt, and agreed with it.

Mike, stop calling people “ignorant”, it does you no favours.

“because it is now seen to be at best a campaign organisation, and at worst a protest organisation. it may not be, but that’s how the public see it (now).”

Do you know this to be fact? I know people who have opposing views re Critical Mass, but I can’t say I’ve noticed a universal anti CM sentiment. And I’m sure that if CM did indeed cause as much inconvenience for others as is being suggested here, then appropriate steps would be taken by the police to prevent such hindrance to all other road users. Don’t forget, that regardless of numbers, all CM riders have every legal right to be on the same roads as any motor vehicle. There is power in numbers. You may be able to whizz past one cyclist, but you simply have to accept that you cannot do so if there are several hundred. You are obliged to drive in consideration of the safety of other road users.

As for blocking junctions; on every CM ride I’ve been on, police often usher the whole CM group through red lights, as it then speeds up their progress through a junction. Drivers are seldom delayed for more than a few minutes. Police like to keep the whole group moving, as it causes less congestion this way. Simply common sense.

“You seem to be ignoring what is actually going on at the moment in London as well, or did you see that as a further way of provoking conflict in an already stretched transport system?”

Why do you see this as anyone ‘provoking conflict’? Aren’t motorists therefore ‘provoking conflict’ by driving in London at this current time, then? Should we all simply stay off all roads?

I used to cringe while watching Critical Mass conducting their mass, wholesale bell-endery every Friday evening in Manchester.

Lets endear cycling to the general populace by making them all late home from work on a Friday evening. That’s bound to make them all think of us fondly. Absolute bunch of nobs, basically. IMHO of course. And it actually makes me angry that they’ve somehow elected themselves as ‘representative’. From what I can see, they’re about as representative of myself and most cyclists as Jeremy bloody Clarkson.

Thanks mikeconnor for his ‘justification’ for CM though. Comedy Gold! It was satire, right?

I’m sure that anyone who cycles in London or any large city, has been sworn at, had drivers cut them up, and generally been made to feel they are unwelcome on the roads they have every right to travel along. What are your experiences of this? How safe do you feel? Do you think it’s right that drivers act in such an antagonistic and potentially dangerous manner?

“Mike, stop calling people “ignorant”, it does you no favours.”

I am merely responding to those who have stated they have no personal experience of a CM ride, and are speaking of that which they have little or no knowledge of. I think I am justified in stating a fact.

I am interested to hear what ways an event like CM could be improved, as I don’t think this discussion is really moving forward in a positive way, towards a reasonable solution for all. I would like to hear others’ views on how cyclists can raise awareness and enhance the image of urban cycling.

Binners, + many…..

“There’s no such thing as bad publicity”

Well, I’m afraid there is, and Critical Mass are a case in point.

Just out of interest, what are people’s views on the London to Brighton Rally vs a Critical Mass ride? [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw-RIulc134[/video]

To me it seems like both would cause a similar amount of disruption although the car rally takes place on a Sunday.

I’d like to thank Mikeconnor for coming on this thread to give his opinions and experience of CM rides, I’ve found the whole thread very interesting. However, pointing out that if one group of road users blocks a junction then if another group does the same it somehow is ok isn’t great.

I agree with many of CM’s principles but as many of the above posters point out, CM don’t really help themselves, especially with Friday’s ride. There was also a protest planned by a Muslim group on Friday, they were requested by the police not to protest so they cancelled. If their protest had gone ahead then the result could have been a lot of negative publicity for that group and maybe they understood this and that helped them to make the decision to cancel.

If CM want more and more people to get behind them, especially non-cyclists then they need to get people on their side and Fridays ride had the opposite effect IMO.

Chanting en masse ‘**** the police’ and ‘F** the olympics’ isn’t celibrating cycling.

I’m massivly pro critical mass for all the reasons mikeconnor details. temprementally and professionaly i am prone to question and challenge police conduct .
That Blackfriers incident shows one pc supported by a medic detain someone using if anything too little force. It appears that other cyclists then try to help the prisoner escape and assault both officers. given that the officers are surrounded by an at best indifereent at worst antagonistic crowd they show restraint and courage, hats off to the two passers by who help the officers.

I’m really interested to hear the details of the Kettling story but the videos of the “disabled man being assaulted by the police” do nothing but cast CM in a very bad light.

“Angry mob gives lone policeman a good shoeing” doesn’t sell as many newspapers, presumably.

Crankboy,
Couple of articles on the guardian site.
Shows things in a slightly different light to the opinions of most on here.

I am interested to hear what ways an event like CM could be improved

do the opposite of what you do know, which just gives free ammunition to people with anti-cycling views. you need to show that cyclists can live amongst taxis, buses, vans, cars, scooters and motorbikes – not just expect to be accepted ‘en masse’.

I’m sure that anyone who cycles in London or any large city, has been sworn at, had drivers cut them up, and generally been made to feel they are unwelcome on the roads they have every right to travel along.

Not once in two years of commuting.

I did get called a “tit” by an angry roadie once because I jumped a red light in Surrey on the way home, with no traffic on the green-lit junction, though… 😕

I am interested to hear what ways an event like CM could be improved

Knock it on the head, once and for all.

I used to watch the procession of misguided stupidity trundle past every Friday. Normally while sat outside, having a post work beer. I won’t list the terms of abuse directed in their general direction from people sat outside, but I never heard anything supportive or complimentary

But here’s the thing: I cycle an awful lot of miles. And have done for many many years. Commuting on the road, off road, in the city, in the sticks, all over. And a lot of off-road recreational miles. And I recognise my own type

And I can tell you one thing. Take more than a casual glance at the CM gimps that you see on the average Friday evening ride, and their bikes, and one thing strikes me. They’re all wearing jeans for a start! And mostly riding BSO’s. None of them look like they do many miles to me.

I don’t think this discussion is really moving forward in a positive way

Well the CMers should have thought about that the other day. They certainly did no favours for themselves nor for cyclists in general.

Trial by Youtube has massively back fired imho.

They’re all wearing jeans for a start!

Sorry, I didn’t realise that I was supposed to be ashamed.

EDIT: Does no one think it’s counter productive to only allow people who dress like ‘cyclists’ and ride bikes costing more than £500 to be called cyclists. Can’t we just include anyone who rides a bike?

t’s interesting also that some of you find CM ‘antagonistic’, when that is not actually the intention. If a large group of cyclists blocks a junction as they travel through it, how is that different to other road vehicles doing the same?

As I said Earlier, what I saw on Friday were a large group of people on bikes, deliberately stopping in the middle of junctions (not travelling through it)
This was done purely to cause problems for other people.

Also massive groups jumping red lights (not being brought through a red light by traffic police) and then stopping in the middle of the junction and milling around to cause obstruction.

That’s why I see them as antagonistic bell ends.

Purely because that how they were acting.

Pretty simple really.

why not join in with the next CM ride, where you will then have an opportunity to express your own views, and be able to meet and share ideas with others? If you feel that CM could be improved, why not get involved and do your bit to enhance the image of cycling?

I don’t think joining a group who use methods you disagree with and confronting them will help….they did not seem very respectful to the coppers …why should I think I would fair any different? Yes of course it is a minority but I am sure you get the point

What about the numbers of motor vehicles moving very slowly at rush hour, holding up and inconveniencing cyclists, who could travel much more quickly if it weren’t for cars lorries and vans blocking their way?

You are confusing commuting in slow traffic and a rolling roadblock

they must also be annoyed at the myriad other problems they encounter on their journeys, such as roadworks, other traffic, buses etc

they are only doing what I am doing, trying to get from a to b. Volume of traffic may be a problem but i don’t see why you think you can compare it with a deliberate attempt to slow traffic tbh

because it is now seen to be at best a campaign organisation, and at worst a protest organisation. it may not be, but that’s how the public see it (now).”
Do you know this to be fact?

It seems a safe bet if you cannot get dedicated cyclists onside you wont be getting the general public on side…they are the ones you are trying to influence as we already agree about cyling safety and the methods are highly counterproductive as they piss off the very people you are trying to educate. you exacerbate the problem by reinforcing their view of us as asshats who ignore the rules and impeded their progress.

then appropriate steps would be taken by the police to prevent such hindrance to all other road users

what like arresting folk? that went well eh
I don’t know what yor point is tbh

had drivers cut them up, and generally been made to feel they are unwelcome on the roads they have every right to travel along. What are your experiences of this? How safe do you feel? Do you think it’s right that drivers act in such an antagonistic and potentially dangerous manner?

Of course I have now how is annoying them improving this situation exactly?

I agree with many of CM’s principles but as many of the above posters point out, CM don’t really help themselves, especially with Friday’s ride.

THIS basically
It needs to be improved for the average cyclists….I don’t think this helps at all in fact i think it makes things worse.

My point BruceWee isn’t about clothing. Its about proportionality. I ride loads of miles. I love it! As a form of transport and as my main recreational interest. Do I feel like I’m hard done by? Not really. The need to protest every week by annoying people? Not one little bit

But I look at those idiots and I don’t see a bunch of fanatical cyclists, doing it for the love of it, or to further the cause. I see a bunch of tools who see an opportunity to be a general PITA, and behave like a bunch of adolescents

Do I feel like I’m hard done by? Not really.

Well that’s good but a brief scan of this forum will show that there are plenty out there who do feel hard done by.

I just don’t think it’s constructive to reinforce the view that there are those of us who look the part, have the right clothes, the right bikes and therefore we are the cyclists whereas the others are merely people riding bikes and not part of our clique.

Maybe they do wear jeans and ride to the shops on a BSO instead of doing hundreds of miles per week but they still have the right to feel concerned about their safety on the road and try to raise awareness for that in the way they feel is best.

and try to raise awareness for that in the way they feel is best.

Seriously? In that case, I’ll tell you what. I really like cats. And I reckon some people should like cats more than they do, and be nicer to them generally.

So I’m going to start a campaign on behalf of all cat lovers. We’re going to convince everyone who isn’t fond of them, to love them by… oh I don’t know… what will make people love them and appreciate how nice and cuddly and lovely they are? I know….. by filling their houses full of kittens!!!

Do you reckon I’ll receive the eternal thanks of the cats protection league for my political statement? I’ve thought it through and its ‘raising awareness for that in the way I feel is best’

I just don’t think it’s constructive to reinforce the view that there are those of us who look the part, have the right clothes, the right bikes and therefore we are the cyclists whereas the others are merely people riding bikes and not part of our clique.

Cycling should be inclusive irrespective of gear and bike. Just look at the Sky Rides.

But it seems logical to expect that people who are passionate enough about a subject to join what is arguably a protest group about it would have an interest in that subject above and beyond what would be expected of ‘casual’ participants. No?

I appreciate that some people will be on BSOs and regular streetwear due to financial constraints (ie, they can’t afford anything else). But even then, a ‘regular’ cyclist will have made some more considered choices, even if it’s just combats or shorts rather than jeans.

I think the key difference between CM and your example is that breaking into people’s houses and filling them with kittens is illegal (I think)

What about if we stuffed them through their letterboxes?

Not if I post them down the chimney, therefore technically not breaking in