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  • Armed police
  • FuzzyWuzzy
    Full Member

    You know who else needs to make quick life or death decisions? Doctors. Nurses. Surgeons. Pilots. Ships’ captains. Bouncers. Firefighters… There’s no reason to invent special criminal procedures for police officers

    How are those roles comparable? Point me at the one in which they are trained to kill someone through their action, rather than it always being an unintended consequence?

    Olly
    Free Member

    I have a (minor) issue with the policy of “only officers who want to carry, apply and get trained to do so”, or however it works.

    IMO, anyone who wants to carry is a space cadet, and probably the last person you would want to carry

    its a slippy slope towards becoming the 51st state. I cant fathom why the tories want to turn us into “little america”

    politecameraaction
    Free Member

    It is probably rare that the situations that they are in when making those decisions has the potential to threaten their own life?

    Pilots and captains do tend to go down with their craft…

    But in any case the argument that police officers are somehow unique in making split second life or death decisions, and therefore deserve special treatment, is specious.

    6
    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    IMO, anyone who wants to carry is a space cadet, and probably the last person you would want to carry

    Oh do grow up. Who is going to act as armed police then? People who don’t want to do it? That’ll work. We have one of the least heavily armed police services in the world.

    kilo
    Full Member

    The request to the army has now been rescinded according to the news on tv just now. Sufficient officers have decided to continue was the brief bit I caught.

    5
    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    The situations police officers face on a daily basis are obviously completely unlike those in any other job, there simply isn’t another job like it. Possibly the only other jobs might be paramedics, ambulance, fire & RNLI. I.e. emergency services making split second decisions in potentially life or death situations as part of its job description. No other job has that.

    Yes other jobs have dire consequences for making bad choices but it’s not the same. Not even close.

    mrlebowski
    Free Member

    The request to the army has now been rescinded according to the news on tv just now. Sufficient officers have decided to continue was the brief bit I caught.

    Good to hear.

    1
    wbo
    Free Member

    The CPS have seen all the evidence and have decided there is a case to answer, or at least investigate.  The fact that the Mets armed police have had a hissy fit because they’re not allowed to do exactly as they want is pretty extraordinary, and seems to support the genernal reputation for selfentitlement

    retrorick
    Full Member

    Lots of employees in lots of jobs occasionally down tools in support of a colleague when they don’t know all the facts.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    I wouldn’t want to confront someone with a gun with a Taser.

    What about unarmed people sitting in their car being belligerent and refusing to get out ?

    3
    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    What about unarmed people sitting in their car being belligerent and refusing to get out ?

    ..whilst ramming their car at the police vehicles

    6
    Gribs
    Full Member

    The Yasser Yaqub case is very different, for one thing Yaqub was armed and moved to point his weapon at an armed officer

    I find it shocking that someone on a cycling forum can’t comprehend that a car can be used as a weapon. If the eye witness accounts of him ramming police cars are true then he clearly was potentially using it as a weapon.

    5
    flannol
    Free Member

    “I find it shocking that someone on a cycling forum can’t comprehend that a car can be used as a weapon. If the eye witness accounts of him ramming police cars are true then he clearly was potentially using it as a weapon.”

    +1 this. This is an excellent occasion for the justice system to make it known that cars are incredibly dangerous, and undertaking intimidating/potentially damaging action with them will result in justice (whatever that justice ends up being)

    1
    reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    Having been an armed police officer, I have to disagree with your “struggle to see what a machine gun brings to a situation that a Taser doesn’t”

    Having been part of an armed robbery (CIT driver, not the criminal!), been involved in potential ones that didn’t escalate and having taken part in training exercises with the police I have the utmost respect for the Armed Police Officers and they are absolutely needed as a level above officers with a Taser. The issue is that 99% of the general public will never see anything other than the odd armed patrol for specific events so they don’t value what they do. Having seen what they can do and have to do there is no way I would support a reduction in their numbers. Higher levels of training and higher standards to hold a warrant to carry a firearm I have no problem with but there must always be armed officers available for when they are needed most. The current investigation is part of upholding those standards, this needs to be done. As for the officers handing in their firearms warrants I have no idea whether that is justified or not, pretty much none of us do. I’m hoping it’s just a case of:

    Lots of employees in lots of jobs occasionally down tools in support of a colleague when they don’t know all the facts.

    but without being privy to all the information I cannot make an informed comment in that side. What must not happen is it becoming a political football, hopefully the army being stood down is a sign of that not happening.

    1
    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    IMO, anyone who wants to carry is a space cadet, and probably the last person you would want to carry

    I think that says more about your perception then. I’ve met a few armed officers when i was living and working round Gatwick, none of them signed up in the hope of killing someone.

    Anyway, I’m not sure the shortage of armed officers is due to this case after all. Theres a lot of them in Cambridge today using some of the uni buildings for a close protection exercise according to MCJnr

    3
    jamj1974
    Full Member

    Yet Wayne Couzens was selected.

    Yes, that was awful – but any selection process is unlikely to be perfect. Harold Shipman, Beverly Allitt and more recently Lucy Letby, demonstrate that some of these people are simply looking to control, injure and ultimately kill other people.

    It is impossible to design processes that are 100%$ proof against sociopathy. Whether, you look at the worlds of politics, the military, medicine, policing or teaching.

    As a result, I think the current protections against misuse of armed police powers are appropriate.

    4
    tjagain
    Full Member

    I remain convinced that a “no fault” investigations is the way to go.  We need to find out why these incidents happen.  If officers fear criminal prosecution for mistakes then evidence we be slanted and we will never find out so the same mistakes get repeated

    this will not be a single issue causing this.  Poor briefing, poor recruitment, poor training, wrong temperament etc etc all could play a part.  Its seems to me Met police are far too “gung ho” and “us and them” but we just donot know

    corporate manslaughter against the MET perhaps – but not criminal action against officers except in very extreme cases where they have acted outside their training and breifing

    jamj1974
    Full Member

    I have met more than a few armed police officers and regular police officers. Personally and I know it is objective, I have experienced more issues with normal police officers than their armed colleagues.

    BTW – never been stopped and acted pleasantly.

    spawnofyorkshire
    Full Member

    I find it shocking that someone on a cycling forum can’t comprehend that a car can be used as a weapon. If the eye witness accounts of him ramming police cars are true then he clearly was potentially using it as a weapon.

    Totally misconstrued my earlier point, but don’t let get in the way of a good bit of keyboard outrage

    1
    slowoldman
    Full Member

    IMO, anyone who wants to carry is a space cadet, and probably the last person you would want to carry

    I’m guessing you’ve never met an armed officer? Anyway, how would you select them?

    MSP
    Full Member

    I remain convinced that a “no fault” investigations is the way to go.  We need to find out why these incidents happen.  If officers fear criminal prosecution for mistakes then evidence we be slanted and we will never find out so the same mistakes get repeated.

    What if the mistake is that a coked up psycho with a badge wants to dole out street justice to those he perceives as “wrong uns”, does your no fault investigation just move onto lessons learned?

    Extreme example of course, but there has to be a point where officers with guns can be held responsible for their actions, we can’t just say if it is their job to be armed then any shooting they carry out is justified.

    MSP
    Full Member

    Anyway, how would you select them?

    I think the ones in cowboy hats would be more suitable than those in space helmets.

    poly
    Free Member

    I remain convinced that a “no fault” investigations is the way to go.  We need to find out why these incidents happen.  If officers fear criminal prosecution for mistakes … <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>… but not criminal action against officers except in very extreme cases where they have acted outside their training and breifing</span>

    Mistakes yes, but the problem with “no fault investigations” for mistakes is when they find criminal behaviour either they are no longer no-fault or they become inadmissible in court.  The charge is Murder.  The bar is pretty high to prove murder.  If the officer had acted in accordance with their training, or briefing it would be surprising to see that officer charged with murder.  Multiple people who have seen the evidence clearly believe a jury should consider if it is Murder.

    3
    tjagain
    Full Member

    What if the mistake is that a coked up psycho with a badge wants to dole out street justice to those he perceives as “wrong uns”, does your no fault investigation just move onto lessons learned?

    If the officer has acted outside their training deliberatly then yes criminal prosecution.  for a mistake?  No

    Drac
    Full Member

    A little reminder that this is a live case so we need to be careful with speculations of the incident.

    1
    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    What if the mistake is that a coked up psycho with a badge wants to dole out street justice to those he perceives as “wrong uns”, does your no fault investigation just move onto lessons learned?

    Maybe you should have read down to TJs last paragraph where he mentioned that.

    1
    Drac
    Full Member

    What if the mistake is that a coked up psycho with a badge wants to dole out street justice to those he perceives as “wrong uns”, does your no fault investigation just move onto lessons learned?

    What an utterly ridiculous comment.

    MSP
    Full Member

    If the officer has acted outside their training deliberatly then yes criminal prosecution.  for a mistake?  No

    And how do you suggest finding that out if the investigation cannot apportion fault where it exists.

    2

    Appreciate some of you are fairly ignorant on classifications of weapons, and there’s a lot of inaccuracy along with mild hysteria so for the uninitiated:
    Pistols – Small, semi-automatic, chambered for low energy ammunition, limited magazine size.

    Glock_17_(6825676904)_без_фона

    Submachine guns – Small, semi-automatic/burst/automatic, chambered for low energy ammunition, often handgun ammunition, larger magazine capacity.

    1200px-MP5Maschinenpistolen_%28HK_MP7%29

    Rifles – Larger than submachine guns, semi-automatic/burst/automatic, chambered for high energy ammunition, larger magazine capacity. Can be bolt action with larger calibre for specialist tasks (sniper).

    3-G36C-LEFT-with-mag-adaptor12021-le-mcx-gallery

    Machine guns – Larger than rifles – Use similar calibers to rifles, fully automatic, belt-fed weapons used to suppress, close, kill and destroy the Kings enemies. NOT a weapon of UK Police Forces.

    Light_Dragoons_soldier_firing_a_GPMG_MOD_45162064

    N.B. If I remember correctly, no police weapons have an automatic function. Sub-machine guns and rifles are restricted to burst (usually 3 rounds) and semi-automatic only. @kato, correct me if i’m off base with that, but I’m sure that’s what I recall from a while ago.

    tjagain
    Full Member

    Details – I guess similar to an NHS investigatory hearing that can change if it uncovers serious wrongdoing.  Needs to be worked out for sure and that is a good question.  I remain wedded to the principle

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    And how do you suggest finding that out if the investigation cannot apportion fault where it exists.

    Seriously?

    IMO, anyone who wants to carry is a space cadet, and probably the last person you would want to carry

    ba7733b476c1ccab5c80f3fc288982c8b67cbd70fd6bc3711919b8da299620cd_3961091

    Yeah, should totally have voluntold some bods to effect an high-risk entry on a property that may have still had occupants who just blew up a load of kids. Just watch SWAT a couple of times and you’re good to go.

    Drac
    Full Member

    Correct UK police don’t use automatic mode.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    Well, admittedly from the Evening Standard:

    Just before 10pm, residents in Kirkstall Gardens heard a single shot. An anonymous witness later told the Standard: “Armed police jumped out and were shouting at the man, ‘Get out of the car’. It was at least a dozen times. The guy in the car had a lot of opportunities to stop but he refused. He then started driving towards a police car and smashed into it, then reversed, he just wouldn’t stop the vehicle.”

    The resident claimed that Mr Kaba “could have killed one of the officers with his car”

    ernielynch
    Full Member

    Well, admittedly from the Evening Standard:

    And completely irrelevant. The Crown Prosecution Service has decided that there is sufficient evidence for a murder charge and that it should be decided by the courts.

    Drac
    Full Member
    A little reminder that this is a live case so we need to be careful with speculations of the incident.

    2
    jamj1974
    Full Member

    Appreciate some of you are fairly ignorant on classifications of weapons, and there’s a lot of inaccuracy along with mild hysteria so for the uninitiated:

    Were you a subscriber to ‘Guns and Ammo’…?😉

    1

    Were you a subscriber to ‘Guns and Ammo’…?😉

    ‘Soldier of Fortune’ mate, this isn’t amateur hour. 😉

    DrJ
    Full Member

    you have to assume that the person who shot Chris was in potential danger.

    because … ?

    9
    mildred
    Full Member

    TBH, I don’t know what their marksmanship is like, I don’t know what their training is like or when they last had any, I don’t know if they’ve ever had to use a weapon ‘in anger’ before…All of which has a bearing on any incident that they may be involved in.

    An ARV AFO has their “marksmanship” tested at least twice per year in that they will have to pass a multi discipline & reactive qualification shoot on moving targets. This is the most basic of standards they have to reach, but don’t be fooled by my wording – it is NOT a basic standard, and is supplemented throughout the year by development shoots. From memory, for the qualification they have no warm up shoot, and have to pass 80% overall with no less than 60% on any one element of the shoot. If they fail, depending on the type of fail, they can either re-take the element (for when they’ve scored over 80% but dropped below 60% on any particular individual element), or register an overall fail and then get a period of remedial training. During this period they are not allowed to carry a firearm operationally.

    Each AFO, whether they’re a basic AFO, ARV AFO, SFO, or CT SFO has to complete a minimum hours of contact time of training. This incorporates both development shoots, tactics & enhanced/advanced 1st aid. If you have a specialism such as Close Protection, Rifle Officer etc. you will do a similar amount of training again, over and above your AFO training for this specialism.

    I was an ARV AFO (with a few specialisms over the years) for almost 20 years. I would do at least 2 x 12 hr training shifts every 5 weeks. I would do a similar amount for my specialisms.

    Every single minute of every day you are scrutinised; from the moment you drew your weapons you were under CCTV. Every drill, whether drawing the weapon from the armoury, function testing or download procedures was done using a Buddy Buddy system where your colleague would watch you like a hawk to ensure you didn’t **** up.

    All tactical training contained an element of “judgemental” training, where your decision making was constantly monitored. You had to be able to cite the powers under which you were acting at any time, as training could be stopped mid flow for you to explain your actions. If your decision making wasn’t rock solid then you could have your “ticket” pulled pending a panel, which usually consisted of the head of firearms training, head of department & you. You would have to go through your decision making in great detail under interrogation adhering the National Decision Making (NDM) model. All of this could ultimately lose your authority to carry a firearm, and even disciplinary action.

    As statistics show above, it’s highly unlikely that an AFO would’ve used their firearm “in anger”. That said, an AFO is fairly unlikely to use one “in anger” because of training,  it the training is generally designed to put AFOs under so much pressure that they cope well operationally.

    Contrary to popular stereotypes your ARV AFO is not a knuckle dragger; prior to becoming an AFO they’re usually some of the higher performing PCs at their respective stations. On my shift of 16, 12 of us had decent degrees. Now that was unusual – not that they had degrees, but more the proportion of us; it’s usually about 50%.

    Now the Met are somewhat different. They have different threats and a much higher volume of threat to deal with than the rest of us. I cannot comment on how they do things, but most I’ve met have been very professional.

    A charge of Murder is a very big deal indeed for a Police officer to be charged with; it suggests malice aforethought… premeditation. I am struggling to see that this officer drew weapons that day & thought “you know what, I’m gonna kill someone today”. My personal thoughts when I heard this were what is the CPS doing? What is their interpretation of this crime and how are they applying/testing this against this incident? And very importantly – How strongly are the IOPC pushing this (I can guarantee very strongly indeed as the political lackeys they are).

    Being an AFO is totally voluntary. At the drawing of weapons I was required to make a declaration that I was physically & mentally fit, and not under the influence of any substance. I believe that due to the uncertainty this incident has created, it is not beyond the realms of probability that a few folk are upset & therefore not able to honestly answer that they are emotionally/mentally fit to carry. Some may simply be very militant. I don’t know, but I can hardly blame them.
    It I s absolutely right & proper that this incident should be investigated fully. No Police officer is above the law and I do not believe the Police are seriously asking for that. They do however need assurances that the unique pressure & circumstances are held into account & that volunteering to carry a firearm to protect people from armed criminals & terrorists is NOT the same as saying I want to kill someone. It is not part of the premeditation of murder. If I was still in that job I would also decline to carry.

    2

    Thanks for that detail @mildred, always good to get an informed perspective rather than the usual hysteria.

    Contrary to popular stereotypes your ARV AFO is not a knuckle dragger; prior to becoming an AFO they’re usually some of the higher performing PCs at their respective stations. On my shift of 16, 12 of us had decent degrees. Now that was unusual – not that they had degrees, but more the proportion of us; it’s usually about 50%.

    The ones I’ve met in the course of my duties always seemed like switched on bods. Which is exactly how it bloody well should be.

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