Please explain Veganism to me . . .

I’m wondering when I last managed a day without eating some form of meat or fish

This is in no means an attack, but I do find it really odd that some folk have to have meat with absolutely everything. It’s like an addiction. Don’t you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of ‘meat’ (as opposed to thinking of it as something you’re going without)? Because essentially that’s what it is, it’s a convenient way of packaging protein. Quorn can be hit and miss, but their peppered steaks are nice, and I’m quite partial to the frozen ‘chicken’ burgers. Or if you can find them (I think H&B still carry them), Tivall hotdogs are indistinguishable from the Plumrose ones I used to have before I was veggie. Plenty of options where you can eat broadly what you normally eat, not eating meat doesn’t have to equate to eating your own bodyweight in lettuce leaves.

And that you could make an argument that some meat eaters are more ethical than some vegetarians in their consumption. I don’t think people can assume vegetarian = more ethical without thinking through any of the other aspects.

This is true, however as general rules of thumb, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles have very simple rules which do not require much research on the part of the follower which is why they are popular with people seeking a more ethical lifestyle. You could say the same about the organic/local/fairtrade movements too. It would be preferable for everyone to do their own research and come to their own conclusions, but it’s not suprising that many don’t.

what about falafel instead of burgers?
Some curries are veggie anyway – Dahls and the like
I assume veggie mince in Bolognese sauce or similar

Not fan of meat substitute as it is both expensive and heavily processed

Don’t you get bored of essentially the same food every day?

I can’t believe people eat veggies every day! Doesn’t the same food get boring?? 😉

You could say the same about the organic/local/fairtrade movements too.

Indeed. I was listening to a podcast recently and they were talking about research showing that in some instance it’s ‘greener’ to buy food that’s been flown/shipped in from far away places than buying locally produced stuff – if they have climatic conditions/soil etc that are much better suited to growing the stuff than we do then it actually uses more energy for us to grow it than to import it.

There’s quite a few criticisms of Fair Trade also – not sure what to think on that one. It seems on balance to probably be a good thing but it’s by no means certain in all cases.

The nuances of the issues involved seem to cause some people to just throw their hands up and say ‘well it’s all too complicated so I’ll just not bother’ – I’m not advocating that.

If you want to eat less meat but struggle, how about introducing something like Quorn as another form of ‘meat’?

tried that, it’s not the same, I would put up with it occasionally but Mrs said “don’t buy that again”.

I should do more veg stuff but it’s a laziness/tastiness thing. I’ve done some pretty decent veg curries in the past (as a veggie work colleague taught me a fair bit about making curries) but almost all of them you thought “yeah this is really good…. but adding some chicken/lamb/prawn would top it off a treat”.

I assume veggie mince in Bolognese sauce or similar

One thing I’ve found is that Quorn mince takes considerably less cooking than its meaty brethren. You can’t simmer it for hours like you can (AFAIK) with meat, it disintegrates. If I’m doing a chilli (say), I’ll fry it off first to give it a bit more bite, then chuck it into the chilli maybe 10-15 minutes before the end of cooking. I’d guess a large percentage of people who’ve tried Quorn mince and said they’ve not liked it have probably overcooked it into slurry, done properly you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference.

There’s quite a lot of variety in meat! Given I do eat meat, I don’t really see the point in meat substitutes – as I mentioned I did used to do meat free months (ISTR doing it for lent, but let’s not go there!) which is more than most people manage, and I did that without eating Quorn burgers or whatever. I get all the issues about eggs, but not going to stop eating them, and thinking further we do sometimes have scrambled eggs and beans on toast for tea. I was going to suggest quiche, but we usually have the one with bacon in! Maybe should see if I can sneak a veggie curry past the kids.

Less meat might be more realistic – if we’d had this discussion a couple of days ago I might have bought just the one pack of lamb for our curry and topped up with veg rather than thought it was a bit less meat than we usually use and bought a second with plans to freeze some.

I can’t believe people eat veggies every day! Doesn’t the same food get boring??

Touché (-: I guess we’re back to the good / crap diet argument. It’s probably just as easy to be imaginative or boring irrespective of being veggie / carnie.

the mycoprotein used to make quorn comes from fungus grown on a petrochemical feedstock. nice.

An omnivore can eat all that

This. Why the assumption that if you eat meat, eggs, and dairy that you don’t eat fruit and veg?

It could be very different though.. I’d much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds.

What makes you think that (even more) scots pine and birch or reintroduction of wolves would be of greater ecological value than protecting a (largely artificial) environment that gives us black grouse,lapwings, hen harriers, sundew, bog asphodel, dor beetles or round mouthed whorl snails?

I don’t mind Quorn but I’m not sure about the ethics of it. They use free-range eggs (in the UK at least) but then unless someone knows otherwise I’m pretty sure large-scale free-range egg producers are still going to be killing all the male chicks, and hens that are past peak productivity.

I get all the issues about eggs, but not going to stop eating them

You could probably find someone with a few hens and get proper free-range non-intensively produced ones – they’re much nicer also.

A wee dod of Marmite gives Quorn mince a meatier flavour. Cooked properly (ie not over-cooked) most folk struggle to tell the difference

Can a vegan drive a car running on petrol? Dino juice..

Cooked properly (ie not over-cooked) most folk struggle to tell the difference

Difference to what?

Fillet steak, turkey mince, liver, bacon, alligator?

Given I do eat meat, I don’t really see the point in meat substitutes

That’s my point really. Don’t look at it as an anything substitute, rather as just another option. You wouldn’t say “given I do eat beef, I don’t really see the point in beef substitutes like chicken,” would you. Rather than categorising it as meat / not meat, it could be yet another protein source. Put a positive spin on it rather than a negative, if your mindset is that you’re missing out on something then you will find it much harder to deny yourself.

Anecdotally: I went out with mates a couple of years back, stopped off at a greasy caff for lunch. One friend ordered a veggie sausage sandwich. “Oh,” says another, “I didn’t know you were vegetarian?” “I’m not,” replied Dave, for that was his name, “I just like them.” Sometimes he ordered the vegetarian sausages, sometimes the pork ones, or whatever else he fancied that day.

That always struck me as a wholly sensible approach to food, rather than mate #2 who seemingly hadn’t realised that vegetarian offerings could be eaten by someone who wasn’t vegetarian. It’s almost the exact reverse of one of the common Vegetarian Bingo lines; “if you call yourself an omnivore, why won’t you eat things that don’t have meat in?” (-:

as general rules of thumb, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles have very simple rules which do not require much research on the part of the follower which is why they are popular with people seeking a more ethical lifestyle

or alternatively, the majority of belief based diet systems encourage their followers to just follow the simple rules with the minimum of investigation/research into the deeper implications of their decisions

I was going to become a vegan a while ago and asked a mate round to give me some advice on it (he’s been vegan for 20+ years). He turned up in a Bentley… knob…. decided it wasn’t for me there and told him to do one…. 😀

Difference to what?

Mince. Beef mince. The stuff it is designed to mimic. Did you really need that explaining? I usually post assuming a certain level of intelligence. I’ll try to make an exception if I think you are likely to be reading it.

One thing I’ve found is that Quorn mince takes considerably less cooking than its meaty brethren.

bit of a bugger when all your usual timings are set for getting the meat just right.
I did bear that in mind but probably overcooked it a little. Probably wouldn’t take long to adjust timing but like I said laziness thing 🙁

This. Why the assumption that if you eat meat, eggs, and dairy that you don’t eat fruit and veg?

Rash generalisations are annoying, aren’t they.

Can a vegan drive a car running on petrol? Dino juice..

The answer to which is of course, “if they have passed the required test and are insured then yes they can.”

If the question you actually want to ask is “would they…” then you’d have to ask them all. I doubt many would object given that dinosaurs weren’t all murdered off by the petroleum industry back in the late Cretaceous, but some people will believe any old nonsense.

I once made chantenay carrots out of some cocktail sausages by adding orange food dye. The vegans I had round for dinner suspected nothing

This is obviously with them being so accustomed to substitute products, they can no longer tell the difference.

On the one hand I felt sad for them, but on the other, even though they didn’t know: I’d done them a favour

As options have improved over the years, I’ve found that ordering the veggie choice at weddings, corporate meals etc usually results in a better meal than the standard, over-done roast beef/chicken or whatever other standard is being served up.

an omelette?

Agreed. My wife is a pescatarian, we have fish/non-meat meals all the time. Falafel is delicious, couscous, veg curry, veg pizza, soups, even some good veggie BBQ stuff. I can’t do quorn though, I really don’t like it, quinola is another thing I can’t eat. I can’t stand any form of offal either

Yup- if nothing else, it’s more likely to be cooked to order. I get the same with gluten free, in my work canteen you get a dude making it fresh and paying attention, everyone else gets something out of a bucket that’s been keeping warm for up to a month.

I suspect if you ever eat in an almost entirely vegetarian place, the meat option will be the same 😆

No, because chicken doesn’t pretend to be beef (I think I already mentioned that there is quite a bit of variety in meat). Given I do like variety, if I’m going to eat something which isn’t meat I prefer to eat something which isn’t pretending to be what I’m not eating.

I’ve quite often claimed to be vegetarian when booking flights, given my perception that the in flight meals are better (as vegetarians without the choice you’ll probably say that’s not the case!)

edit: a bit slow, clearly I’m not the only one with that perception – it’s great being an omnivore when you can choose whether or not to eat meat!

😆

It could be very different though.. I’d much prefer forested hills containing the likes of wolves, bears and beavers than bald fields and peat bogs full of sheep and game birds

Why, so you can go “ooooh look fluffy bear….ooooh ahhhh…doesn’t it have such big teeth”.

10,000 years ago, bears and wolves etc were the bane of our very existence. Hundreds of thousands of years before that, countless ancestors of ours, would have been predated by big cats and killed in utterly horrific manners.

**** them all! The planet is our bitch now – we need to mold it to suit our own needs. Whether we have peat bogs full of game birds, or rewilded wolves is entirely up to what we collectively value more as entertainment.

I’ve found that ordering the veggie choice at weddings, corporate meals etc usually results in a better meal than the standard,

Yeah, it can be. It varies of course, sometimes you get what’s clearly an afterthought (eg, same as everyone else only without the centrepiece). But there’s been many times where (after the inevitable “you’re vegetarian? But whhhhhyyyyyy? I could never be vegetarian, I like meat too much” etc etc discussion) my food’s turned up and everyone comments about how good it looks and how they wished they’d ordered it now.

The Mrs’s is a Veggie, I’m not. She’s a fairly strict adherence to it, I’m about 80% with it. Her choice is based on Animal welfare, mine too. If I know where it comes from and killed in a humane way and local (the prime decision point for me) then I’m happy, if not I choose veggie too.

We have two farms in the family, one Beef cattle and one Lamb. Both organic and took nearly 7 years to get hold of the certificate. Damn it’s good meat, I know where it comes from, who looked after it, who killed it, get all the choice over what I eat in the world yet very rarely do I come home with any.. I made a pact with the Mrs to not eat meat in the Appt we have, but when home I’ll eat what I choose to.
Works for us.

Suggest you make your own decisions on what you eat and not be swayed by anyone elses view you don’t trust/believe.

But there’s been many times where (after the inevitable “you’re vegetarian? But whhhhhyyyyyy? I could never be vegetarian, I like meat too much” etc etc discussion) my food’s turned up and everyone comments about how good it looks and how they wished they’d ordered it now.

As a vegan I tire of this happening as well 😉

hmmmm, early genus of the species Homo (like Erectus that managed to survive 2 million years) probably didn’t have the brain mutation that caused “conciousness” and thus didn’t feel “bad”, still managed to co-operate however, as do troops of Baboon and Chimpanzee today. I don’t think there’s much evidence for co-operation as a result of selfishness. (as opposed to self interest)

Chimps are little different to humans when one realizes that actually….. chimps have theory of mind, so yes, they can conciously empathise with each other.

No, because chicken doesn’t pretend to be beef (I think I already mentioned that there is quite a bit of variety in meat). Given I do like variety, if I’m going to eat something which isn’t meat I prefer to eat something which isn’t pretending to be what I’m not eating.

Heh. One of the most common complaints I hear from omnivores about meat “substitutes” is their perception that they’re not sufficiently similar to their meat counterparts; I’ve only ever heard vegetarians say they don’t like them because they’re too similar, that’s a first. You like variety, yet are actively rejecting yet more variety. (-:

Perhaps chicken and beef was a bad example. How about comparing a shepherd’s pie with a cottage pie? They’re basically the same dish with different meats, one’s not “pretending” to be the other. Why should a veggie mince pie be treated any differently?

I’ve quite often claimed to be vegetarian when booking flights, given my perception that the in flight meals are better (as vegetarians without the choice you’ll probably say that’s not the case!)

Difficult to say as I’ve never been in a position to compare. I have heard others say the same thing though. Either way, I guess if I weren’t veggie there’d still be an argument for ordering vegetarian in situations where the quality of the food / preparation couldn’t be relied upon. I’ve always advised people to go veggie for the weekend at festivals, for instance (you really don’t want to have to spend all day in a festival portaloo).

😀

Having read NW and scotroutes veggie option posts that sounds like a good idea, common sense approach, thing is I can’t ever see myself trying that because

“I could never be vegetarian, I like meat too much”

I reckon I’d take an average meaty dish over an exceptional veggie* one. I’m not 100% sure why….
and I’m not sure I’m happy about not knowing the reason.

*I guess actually mean vegan here, I’ve had some rather nice cheese dishes, but as I** can only really see two reasons for eschewing meat, 1.animal welfare 2.being a healthy option, and cheese circumvents both of those I don’t think they really count.

**being an amoral scumbag omnivore

I should say – I’m not even veggie. I just like a bit of variety in my diet. Sometimes I have meat, sometimes I don’t.

Thems fighting words DONK
Invites DONK for tea

I live with a Vegan. Every day is a struggle.

It’s fine really – me and the offspring are pescatarian so it doesn’t limit us much, and we do get to try a bunch of odd processed German things made from pressed fungus.