Please explain Veganism to me . . .

Tom please dont ever try to lecture me on logic or try to do analogies again. Its amusing stand up I grant you but it is not meaningful.

Its still a binary choice tom there is no middle way between eats meat and does not eat meat and your floundering attempts to prevent yourself just admitting this error are risible.

there’s been far more provocation and attempted flaming from the meat eating side of the fence in here.

Careful now, they’ll accuse you of oppressing them with your forum name. 🙂

FWIW i have had people pour meat gravy on my food deliberately so there are nutters on all sides.

Which “nutters” action on other sides are you attempting to equate this with?

How does pouring gravy on food make someone a “nutter” ?

It’s not been huge on this thread, but at least two posters have mentioned eating “dead animal” and “flesh” instead of the far more neutral “meat” – of course it’s technically correct, but it’s also a fairly interesting choice of vocabulary that seems (maybe subconciously) calculated to make meat eating less appetising, and a vegetarian lifestyle moreso.

I’m guilty of this. For my part, I’m not using those words to be deliberately inflammatory, rather as an explanation of how it feels to me. I don’t equate meat with food, I equate it to dead flesh; I find it revolting, and my choice of words are intended to explain that. Plus, y’know, there’s an inherent comedic value. (-: Sorry if that wasn’t clear, but it wasn’t my intent to be derisory.

there’s been far more flaming from the meat eating side of the fence in here.

well campylobacter is less of an issue for veggies so less flame needed 😉

I equate it to dead flesh, but this does not revolt me.

Which “nutters” action on other sides are you attempting to equate this with?

Presumably the girl knocking a tray of ham sandwiches to the floor.

How does pouring gravy on food make someone a “nutter” ?

Reaching over someone else’s food who you know is a vegan and pouring gravy on it – that’s being a nutter, don’t you think?

Its still a binary choice tom there is no middle way between eats meat and does not eat meat and your floundering attempts to prevent yourself just admitting this error are risible.

Again, you’ve misunderstood. You genuinely think I give a shit about what veggies eat, all I care about is the arguments you and others have used to justify your choice. You are pro-abortion yes Junky? If so, do not pretend any well thought out philosophical standpoint ever influenced your decision to not eat meat.

You are pro-abortion yes Junky? If so, do not pretend any well thought out philosophical standpoint ever influenced your decision to not eat meat.

There you go again. Strange.

I just have a psychotic dislike for poor logic.

You are pro-abortion yes Junky? If so, do not pretend any well thought out philosophical standpoint ever influenced your decision to not eat meat.

Life must be a struggle.

Again I am not against peoples decision to eat or not eat meat, just their arguments for doing so.

Fair enough. Care to deconstruct the flaw in my argument, then?

In case you missed it: I don’t eat meat because I find the concept of eating lumps of animals to be gross and barbaric, and I’m lucky enough to live in a society where it’s wholly optional, so I choose not to.

I’d have problems with handling bleeding lumps of flesh and innards, and consider that it would be massively hypocritical of me to cheerfully put something in my mouth that earlier I’d have been squeamish about putting in my hands, so long as someone deals with the wetwork for me first.

What have you got for me, logic boy?

I think that the best way around the disassociation between killing animals and the food we eat would be to introduce hunting onto the primary school curriculum. Maybe with spears.

That way, once you’ve stalked an animal, ended its life with a well aimed sharp implement, ripped its guts out while ‘blooding’ your mates with its entrails, then roasted it on an open spit, you can make a decision on your future dietry requirements from there.

I’ve suggested this to the local education authority, but the bloody Guardian reading veggies were aghast at the idea, and immediately dismissed it.

There’s simply no bloody pleasing some people!

so the best you can come up with is they used technically correct words you dont like.

Which is why I said “it’s not been huge on this thread” and explicitly mentioned that they are indeed technically correct.

As to whether or not “meat” as a term is used to make it subconciously easier to handle, maybe for some but in general I doubt it – the word for “flesh” and “meat” is the same in Spain, and there are far fewer vegetarians here for example. I think most people like meat and don’t particularly care about where it comes from.

Fair enough. Care to deconstruct the flaw in my argument, then?

In case you missed it: I don’t eat meat because I find the concept of eating lumps of animals to be gross and barbaric, and I’m lucky enough to live in a society where it’s wholly optional, so I choose not to.

Then it’s an emotional choice, nothing more. But your use of the term barbaric implies that you think that others are barbaric. At least dead chickens get used for something, what do dead foetuses get used for?

I’m genuinely struggling to understand the link to Abortion that Tom keeps mentioning…

How does pouring gravy on food make someone a “nutter” ?

Would you eat a burger I’d urinated on? That’s exactly how it feels to me when someone tips meat juices all over my food. Is deliberately (as opposed to innocently / accidentally) ruining someone’s dinner “normal behaviour”?

You are pro-abortion yes Junky?

Ignoring the weapons-grade non-sequiteur for a moment, I strongly suspect that like most right-thinking people he’s pro-choice, not pro-abortion.

It’s about agency, chickens have none – nor do foetuses. That is partly why we justify killing the latter. What is so barbaric about killing the former, if you are willing to do the latter.

Then it’s an emotional choice, nothing more.

Arguably. What if it is?

But your use of the term barbaric implies that you think that others are barbaric. At least dead chickens get used for something, what do dead foetuses get used for?

You really are reaching now, aren’t you. Dead foetuses get used for, as a random example, preserving the long-term sanity of rape victims.

Are you here for the five minutes or the full half hour?

So let me get this straight, you think that because I may support a woman over her choice of what happens to her own body, my choice of not eating meat is some-how morally* bankrupt?

Really?

* suggests of course that you only see one reason not to eat meat…

{quote] You really are reaching now, aren’t you. Dead foetuses get used for, as a random example, preserving the long-term sanity of rape victims. [/quote]

Chickens can be used for food in areas that can’t grow arable crops. Importing arable food to these places increases CO2 output, killing more fluffy bunnies. Plenty of utilitarian uses for eating meat to justify the practice.

Do you only support aborttion for rape cases then?

So let me get this straight, you think that because I may support a woman over her choice of what happens to her own body, my choice of not eating meat is some-how morally bankrupt?

Really?

Pretty much, with the caveat…only if you think you are morally superior to those who do eat meat.

So, in summary, there are two main arguments for/against vegetarianism: are you pro-choice and does preparing meat (aka flesh) make you feel icky?

What is so barbaric about killing the former, if you are willing to do the latter.

Fundamentally, I don’t believe that I have a right to tell someone else what they can and can’t do with their bodies. Which is why I’m not a preachy vegetarian and why I don’t think women should be banned from removing a bunch of cells from their bodies before it turns into something they’ll have to look after 24/7 for the next two decades of their life.

As straw men go, this is a particularly good one.

Killing animals for no other reason than we really like it, on the other hand, sounds like the sort of thing they’ll be reading about with disbelief in text books in a millennium or two.

only if you think you are morally superior to those who do eat meat

I think that’s only going on in your head TBH.

I haven’t seen one veggie on this thread claim moral superiority, most of us are pretty aware of the caveats and compromises we have chosen to make.

what do dead foetuses get used for?

Do you only support aborttion for rape cases then?

Tom are you feeling ok? Have you considered exercising this obsession with aborted feotuses on another thread?

only if you think you are morally superior to those who do eat meat

I think I’m morally superior to those who make rubbish straw man arguments. Does that mean I’m not allowed to be pro-choice?

In case you missed it: I don’t eat meat because I find the concept of eating lumps of animals to be gross and barbaric, and I’m lucky enough to live in a society where it’s wholly optional, so I choose not to.

And I fully support your choice not to

In fact can’t think of any significant voice within the meat eating community that would oppose your choice not to, or would try to impose their own moral code on you and demand that veggie burgers were banned or force you to eat meat.

There are actual organisations however, with real significant membership numbers, that seek to impose that on the meat eating community, and to remove or undermine their choice to eat what they want.

Please don’t.
It might be irrelevant but at least it’s irrelevant in one place.

Chickens can be used for food in areas that can’t grow arable crops. Importing arable food to these places increases CO2 output, killing more fluffy bunnies. Plenty of utilitarian uses for eating meat to justify the practice.

This affects me how?

Do you only support aborttion for rape cases then?

Sorry, I thought an example would be sufficient to counter your frankly barking argument, I didn’t realise you’d need a full and exhaustive list.

Pretty much, with the caveat…only if you think you are morally superior to those who do eat meat.

Never really gave it much thought to be honest. Can’t really see the logic in why I would though, as I’ve said several times now I’m not (primarily) vegetarian for moral reasons, it’s just a happy side-effect.

There are actual organisations however that seek to impose that on the meat eating community, and to undermine their choice to eat what they want.

Go on then, which ones?

There are actual organisations however that seek to impose that on the meat eating community, and to undermine their choice to eat what they want.

And you were doing so well for a moment there. Why do you keep repeating the same point when I’ve already answered it several times now?

Because trying to point to them as a small minority of ‘extremists’ doesnt reflect many meat eaters experience of interacting with veggies.

How often do you interact with extremists? I’m not even sure who you’re referring to, they’re such a large part of my experience.

Again, you’ve misunderstood.

There is nothing to misunderstand [ though you have tried to re write it each time you have replied] what you said was factually incorrect* and you would rather flail around like a mad man ranting about abortions [ and guessing at my opinion on them] than just accept the point that you were wrong.

Reading the thread so you think is working for you

* I’m not for or against eating meat,
for fear or repeating myself you either are for it and eat meat or you are against it and dont eat meat. There is no other option available – well there is the one you are doing now but its unhinged gibberish that makes you look bonkers.

Which “nutters” action on other sides are you attempting to equate this with?

the example cougar gave

How does pouring gravy on food make someone a “nutter” ?
My mistake no nutters pour gravy on a veggies plates every day.

well campylobacter is less of an issue for veggies so less flame needed

its easy to cross contaminate though.

on the flip side, if you are an organic veggie there is a significant increase risk of faecal bacteria on your food.

How often do you interact with extremists?

Every time he goes hunting or on a countryside alliance march 😉
l
Clearly there are some animal extremist and most veggies view them the same way most meat eaters view your “hobby” and the folk who do that.
You are no more reflective of meat eaters than they are of of veggies

Because trying to point to them as a small minority of ‘extremists’ doesnt reflect many meat eaters experience of interacting with veggies.

arent these going to be self selecting in the main? unless you regularly feed other people how would you know their dietary preferences? There’s a couple of guys at work who I seem to recall may be veggie but as they sit down eat their packed lunch chat about various generally not food related stuff then go back to work it doesn’t really come up so I’m not 100% sure they are and if they are I’ve no idea why. If they were the extreme rabid veggie variety then I’m sure we’d all know about it.

Because trying to point to them as a small minority of ‘extremists’ doesnt reflect many meat eaters experience of interacting with veggies.

And your logical fallacy is… *spins the wheel*…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Most meat-eaters’experience of interacting with most veggies day to day will go unnoticed as we don’t wear signs and usually only mention it when we have to. And when you do find out, it only sticks as memorable when you find a shouty one. This is basically the “all cyclists are…” argument again; “trying to point to them idiots on bikes as a small minority of ‘extremists’ doesnt reflect many meat eaters car drivers’ experience of interacting with veggies cyclists.”

You and a couple of others keep implying that the world is seemingly overrun by militant vegetarians on a mission to take over the world armed with lentils and tofu. Yet, often go all quiet when asked if this actually happens to them on a regular basis, if ever. It’s lazy, tedious and inaccurate.

And even if you were right, the fact remains that they are extremists, they aren’t representative, so these ‘many meat eaters’ perceptions are skewed.

Because trying to point to them as a small minority of ‘extremists’ doesnt reflect many meat eaters experience of interacting with veggies.

So most veggies are extremists? They must all be members of these organisations who you still haven’t named yet who want to force everyone to be veggie.

You and a couple of others keep implying that the world is seemingly overrun by militant vegetarians on a mission to take over the world armed with lentils and tofu

Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them

Your posts on here are cast iron proof of that.

Those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them

I prefer
When men and women agree, it is only in their conclusions; their reasons are always different.

Is it me or has this thread got a bit silly this lunchtime?