Please explain Veganism to me . . .

Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they’re getting in the first punch, or what?

Well, a lot of veggies are on moral grounds. A lot of meat eaters love meat so they assume all veggies are doing so on moral grounds. So that sets up an unintended conflict between the veggie and the meat eater.

A lot of people are insecure in one way or another, and conflict and competition run throughout many people’s lives – people are always trying to put each other down, so the reaction to this is to compete to put yourself back up and the other person down. Of course, social niceties mean that this is usually not overt, and within families and friends it’s often completely un-noticed by anyone, including the people themselves. Which is why you get small scale passive-aggressive behaviour so often in workplaces and so on.

So when someone says something that could be considered morally superior, people react by justifying their own perceived inferior position, or trying to reduce the perceived superior position. So it’s either effusing as to why they eat meat, or it’s criticising vegeterianism. See this thread 😉

It also happens when you tell people you don’t drink, if you pick up a plastic bottle and look for a recycling bin, sometimes when you arrive in a Prius. You get either people being apologetic about their gas guzzler; people mocking you accusing you of thinking you’re saving the world when you’re not; or people telling you how they are in fact worse for the environment than a Hummer. See STW for many examples of that too 🙂

Well, if you told people you were a scientologist or had converted to Islam then you’d get the same reaction.

So?

Eating each other can be dismissed from a utilitarian perspective, it wouldn’t be very good for society.

Not even if they were free range people who’d been bred specifically for the purpose, wouldn’t have been born otherwise, fed on healthy organic feed, lived a happy if short life and were slaughtered humanely? What’s the problem? They wouldn’t know any different. We could even hang the brown ones up by their ankles and slit their throats in the traditional manner.

I just have a psychotic dislike for double standards/poor logic

Have you missed all the posts telling you that not all veggies choose not to eat meat for the same reason?

A lot of people are insecure in one way or another,

You may well be right there. At the risk of making a rash generalisation, perhaps a lot of people do things because they always have and don’t give it much thought. I’d hazard, as a random example, that there will be a much higher percentage of religious types who have been brought up by religious parents than those who convert / see the light in adulthood. I doubt there aren’t many Sikhs whose parents were devout Muslims.

Many (though clearly not all!) meat eaters will have been brought up that way and perhaps never given it a second thought, it’s just the way of the world in the same way that our culture dictates that it’s perfectly normal to eat lambs and abhorrent to eat kittens; whereas most veggies / vegans will have thought a lot about it and consciously made a perhaps difficult lifestyle change. So then when folk are unexpectedly made to consider something about themselves they see it as a challenge / threat and get defensive. Maybe.

Who knows, maybe all that red meat makes people more aggressive. (-:

Junkyard – lazarus

He was politely saying you were wrong as the meat eaters were preachy and the vegans said eat what you want

like I said I don’t care if you are a meat eater, a non meat eater, a vegan or some other type of eater. Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me (goes for meat eaters too).

Interesting. Halloumi I think. Not terribly helpful for vegans though.

So do you eat kittens? You seem happy enough to throw around the hypocrite argument because some other people don’t eat all the food options available to them. Yet it seems neither do you.

Still wondering what kittens taste like.

I’d appreciate a link or a quote to the people doing that on this thread so that I can tell them off – I also find that irritating.

Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they’re getting in the first punch, or what?

for most people it’s seems a very strange choice so I think many are genuinely interested and wondering why. Despite knowing that it’s a pet peeve for most, sometimes I still can’t help asking vegan people “well what about animal X in situation Y, would you eat that?”, in that case I’m not trying to trick them or call hypocrite I’m genuinely interested in the answer.

Plus what Molly said (good post) I was going to say something about that but I think he has covered it better than I would.

So then when folk are unexpectedly made to consider something about themselves they see it as a challenge / threat and get defensive

It’s not even that complicated. People *subconscously* see it as you saying you’re morally superior to them.

This behaviour is absolutely endemic in society, by the way – not deliberately, in most cases I’m sure. It’s just how people are brought up. Perhaps a sociologist or psychologist can come to the thread and give it a name?

Still wondering what kittens taste like.

chicken, probably. like most other less popular meat.

Still wondering what kittens taste like.

It’s like a mix of frog and chicken.

So then when folk are unexpectedly made to consider something about themselves they see it as a challenge / threat and get defensive. Maybe.

I’ll probably be accused of sitting on a high horse here, but it’s probably because they are insecure about their own eating habits as deep down they probably agree with the vegetarian but can’t bring themselves to make the lifestyle change required. No one likes being confronted by uncomfortable truths, even passively.

I often find that those who doth protest too much, are those who are most conflicted. It’s funny because whenever I’ve encountered people who work in the farming or meat industries, they tend to be the people I get least hassle from. The explanation for this probably being that they don’t harbour any guilt or insecurity about their own eating habits, so don’t feel the need to go on the defensive.

it’s probably because they are insecure about their own eating habits as deep down they probably agree with the vegetarian

In this particular case, it’s possibly because they don’t like killing animals and have pushed it to the back of their mind as they munch on delicious bacon. So yeah quite possibly.

but it’s probably because they are insecure about their own eating habits as deep down they probably agree with the vegetarian but can’t bring themselves to make the lifestyle change required.

possibly some of that but as molly said a couple of posts ago, if someone takes a stance diametrically opposed to yours citing moral grounds then it would be quite difficult not to infer some bad/lack of morals on your part innit?

It may not be the intention but I’m sure you can see how it can be taken as such.

(I’m quite happy being amoral pondlife, I’d quite happily kill cook eat given the opportunity – and have done – but like I said feel I should probably eat less meat for health reasons and can see/agree a lot of valid points for going veggie/vegan)

I’ve also had similar when people excuse themselves for a smoke. They get all ashamed about it cos they’re told it’s wrong all the time. They wouldn’t do it if you went with them to smoke.

I’ve even seen it when you have something health for lunch and they come back with sausage and chips.

(under the grill, and when you think it’s done, just give it another minute or so)

This can be improved! Dredge the cheese in semolina first and shallow fry it. Serve it with warm honey and toasted sesame seeds. I would happily eat this ever single day.

Cougar – Moderator

….Is it guilt, or an expectation that all vegetarians evangelise so they’re getting in the first punch, or what? Very confusing

Maybe a little insight to how the forum people of faith feel whenever the gobby atheists kick off, might even help your moderating skills 😉

Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

Does that happen to you a lot? Or have you just made it up in order to sound like you have a point?

for most people it’s seems a very strange choice so I think many are genuinely interested and wondering why. Despite knowing that it’s a pet peeve for most, sometimes I still can’t help asking vegan people “well what about animal X in situation Y, would you eat that?”, in that case I’m not trying to trick them or call hypocrite I’m genuinely interested in the answer.

Oh, sure. And I mentioned that in my previous post I think. I totally understand why someone would want to know more when presented with something they don’t understand. Gets a bit tedious after a while when you’re having the same conversation twice a week with different people (eg, communal eating areas at work) but mostly it’s something I’m happy to talk about. It’s when folk launch into what a massive mistake I’ve just made that I want to give up being veggie so that I can eat my own spleen.

And to answer my own question, “does that actually happen”, it does. Most people don’t really care beyond passing interest or making conversation, but every now and then you get someone who has been saving up all their arguments ready for this special moment.

I guarantee there are more preachy omnivores than preachy vegetarians simply because Maths. For a start meat eaters are a large majority, and also they hardly ever have to bring up in casual conversation that actually they do eat meat and thus risk sparking an argument.

Feel free to prove me wrong but I simply don’t accept that there are that many preachy veggies; they’re a minority within a minority and – I’ll let you into a little secret – most veggies probably hate them more than you do because they’re giving us a bad name.

Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

We know what you think as it is what you said originally.
Three folk have told you it has not happened on this thread so feel free to keep ignoring the evidence and just keep telling us what you think again.
PLease read the thread it is just not happening.

As for evangalising this is how it goes

Get a brew at someones house or out or at work. I ask for soya milk – they almost never have it- or have no milk

Person asks me why I dont have milk or why i asked for soya

I say I am vegan
they ask me why or what I eat

I am now evangalising and throwing it at them and preaching.

Person offers me food – I day what is it?
I either say no and look potentially rude or say sorry I cannot eat that. they then ask why? I am now preaching again.

Its pretty hard to avoid saying it as think how often you eat something!

No one wants to hear anyone evangalis about anything – it why we only talk about bikes to other cyclists as it bores the shit put of everyone else – but folk probably think you are evangelising when you say you commute by bike to work
PersonallY I love preachy veggies because they are easy to wind up and the ace up the sleeve of being a vegan is a nice one to unleash 15 minutes into the debate. The diet equivalent of only owning one bike or only riding trail centres 😛

Hmm, I can’t think of any ‘campaigning organisations’ for meat eating that send letter bombs to mushroom farms or hold protests at the docks opposing long distance banana tranport.

Gets a bit tedious after a while when you’re having the same conversation twice a week with different people

I can see how that could be a problem.
BTW I don’t think I ever bemoaned or even claimed the existence of preachy veggies (just thought Id mention it as you wrote beneath a quote of mine)

You need the countryside lobby for that sort of crazy shit as each community has their extremists eh 😛

Maybe a little insight to how the forum people of faith feel whenever the gobby atheists kick off, might even help your moderating skills

Yeah, the irony isn’t lost on me. I’ve used, I think being veggie as an analogy on some of the, ah, ‘theological debates’ previously. I do at least try not to be hypocritical. (-:

Not sure how that has anything to do with moderating though. From a moderation standpoint, I try to be impartial and will moderate personal attacks but not differences of opinion (and having an opinion that someone is an arsehole is not a loophole!). Censorship is a slippery slope. But please don’t confuse / conflate that with my personal opinions and debating style as a user, the two are separate (I try to explicitly differentiate <mod> comments, when I remember).

Hmm, I can’t think of any ‘campaigning organisations’ for meat eating that send letter bombs to mushroom farms or hold protests at the docks opposing long distance banana tranport.

You are aware of the concept of “extremists” and how they don’t generally represent the views and desires of the majority they claim to represent, yes? I’ve explained this on this very thread at least three times now, possibly more, so either you’ve got your browser set to write-only again or you’re trolling.

Here’s a handy link, it might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremism

I’ll let you into a little secret – most veggies probably hate them more than you do because they’re giving us a bad name.

I’ve met more than my fair share of vegan nutters. Like the girl who intended on converting everyone to veganism through conceptual art. Also the woman who knocked a tray of ham sandwiches out of the hand of a kindly old man in the pub who was offering round the leftovers from a darts match. That was actually quite funny that one because it covered another vegan who was with us in bits of ham :D. Then there was the girl who ‘liberated’ a bucket of maggots from a fisherman. I could go on, but the eejits on here will probably recite these as concrete proof that all vegans are mentally deranged.

Not even if they were free range people who’d been bred specifically for the purpose, wouldn’t have been born otherwise, fed on healthy organic feed, lived a happy if short life and were slaughtered humanely? What’s the problem? They wouldn’t know any different. We could even hang the brown ones up by their ankles and slit their throats in the traditional manner. [/quote]

Even if they were humanely killed, there are all sorts of utilitarian arguments against killing members of your own species, eg like a lack of respect for human life – meaning that society considers people disposable. It would probably lead to more intra and inter group agrression etc etc and it would spread Kuru.

Basically Papua New Guienea 30-50 years ago.

That’s not to mention that I’ve alrady implied that I think the cut off point is defined by psychological agency – so there are a lot of species on the planet that I disgree with killing before I disagree with abortion. There are decent utilitarian arguments against infanticide – basically at least my way of viewing the world has a modicum of logic to it – half you lot are using raving appeals to emotion to justify your diet.

Well done, you guys managed to remind me of this video.

I’m not for or against eating meat,

well you either eat it or you dont so that is just not true.

at least my way of viewing the world has a modicum of logic to it

So you agree with yourself…the best appeal to authority ever 😕

I’ve met more than my fair share of vegan nutters.

Not being an apologist in any way, but I think at least a couple of those you’re describing there are simply nutters. What I mean is, knocking over someone’s dinner simply isn’t normal behaviour regardless of your motives, it’s rude and totally unacceptable behaviour.

I’ve met people like that over the years, quite often the cause is immaterial, the important thing to them is that they have one. I knew a girl at Uni (previously unmentioned until just now because I’d completely forgotten about her, yay confirmation bias) who was variously a revolutionary vegan / feminist / christian / lesbian / whatever other cause du jour she latched on to. She’d obsess about something for a few months, then when she’d bored the tits off everyone to a point where nobody could be arsed to argue about their diet any more she’d find god and go back to the beefburgers.

FWIW i have had people pour meat gravy on my food deliberately so there are nutters on all sides.

My kids have had similiar issues at school

well you either eat it or you dont so that is just not true.

I don’t care one way or the other whether people eat meat or not, I just dislike the arguments being used to justify peoples choices.

at least my way of viewing the world has a modicum of logic to it – half you lot are using raving appeals to emotion to justify your diet.

Point of note, in case it was too subtle, is that I was using the logic you yourself claimed to be using (reductio ad absurdum) in order to demonstrate that actually it’s probably not as valid an argument as you think.

Oh, and, we’re not feeling obliged to “justify” anything, we’re perfectly happy thanks. We’re just answering questions. If you want to discuss it then great, if you don’t want answers then don’t ask. It’s broadly fruitless anyway as several people don’t actually appear to be listening to any answers and are busying their straw men instead. But it was ever thus.

FWIW i have had people pour meat gravy on my food deliberately so there are nutters on all sides.

Oh, yeah, I’ve been to a barbecue where some wag has found it hilarious to make sure that the token disposable vegetarian grill gets plenty of pig juice drizzled all over it. Thanks for that, I’ll just eat a dry bread roll then.

Your modicum of logic clearly involves moving the goalposts by simply rewriting what you said and pretending you said something else entirely

Forgive me for not being convinced.

I’m not for or against eating meat,

to repeat you either do eat it or you dont so clearly that is just not true. Rewriting it wont change that

Its the way a lot of non-meat eaters try and force their non-meat eating morals onto others that annoy me

We know what you think as it is what you said originally.
Three folk have told you it has not happened on this thread so feel free to keep ignoring the evidence and just keep telling us what you think again.
PLease read the thread it is just not happening.

It’s not been huge on this thread, but at least two posters have mentioned eating “dead animal” and “flesh” instead of the far more neutral “meat” – of course it’s technically correct, but it’s also a fairly interesting choice of vocabulary that seems (maybe subconciously) calculated to make meat eating less appetising, and a vegetarian lifestyle moreso.

yebbut they’re the ISIS of vegan/vegetarianism 😉

i’m not pro or against meat eating. I just eat “food”. and get my protein from “food”.

Mogrim

I know folk who don’t eat meat for those reasons…It is after all “the flesh of dead things”…agreed it’s perhaps a bit provocative, but it’s fundamentally true.

The packaging of meat in supermarkets and the absence of butchery and slaughter houses in towns I think are partly the driver behind a disassociation some folks have to what they are putting in their mouths. I think there’s a good percentage of the population who really don’t think about (or care particularly much) about the obvious link between animals, death, and Sunday lunch

so the best you can come up with is they used technically correct words you dont like.

As it is clearly the flesh of a dead animal do you think the term meat is used to make it more acceptable[sub consciously] to eat it?

I think there’s a good percentage of the population who really don’t think about (or care particularly much) about the obvious link between animals, death, and Sunday lunch

I suspect they dont do it for fear they would join us

Not many folk would take their kids out for a day trip to the abattoir after the petting zoo and they would prefer to live in denial of how the meat gets there not all mind but some.

I chuckle internally when veggies try to promote vegetarian by accusing me of eating dead animals. Better than eating live ones, innit?

I think there’s a good percentage of the population who really don’t think about (or care particularly much) about the obvious link between animals, death, and Sunday lunch

I knew a girl at school who was “..a vegetarian. Well, sort of. Well, yeah, but like, only if it looks like an animal, you know. I’ll eat burgers and sausages..”

Worst vegeterian ever.

to repeat you either do eat it or you dont so clearly that is just not true. Rewriting it wont change that

Again I am not against peoples decision to eat or not eat meat, just their arguments for doing so. Whether I eat meat is utterly irrespective of this, your reasoning is akin to “well you’re an atheist so you must thus, automatically, be opposed to religion”.

It is after all “the flesh of dead things”…agreed it’s perhaps a bit provocative, but it’s fundamentally true.

Which as Mogrim has pointed out, implies a moral standpoint – if you make your moral standpoint known then expect it to be challenged. Don’t then whinge when people do, it’s people like that who get upset and shoot up the offices of satirical magazines.

It’s not been huge on this thread, but at least two posters have mentioned eating “dead animal” and “flesh” instead of the far more neutral “meat” – of course it’s technically correct, but it’s also a fairly interesting choice of vocabulary that seems (maybe subconciously) calculated to make meat eating less appetising, and a vegetarian lifestyle moreso.

some of my omnivore friends (albeit not on this thread) do the same thing. i can see how it could be considered to be possibly inflammatory or emotive, but i don’t think that any of the vegetarians/vegans on this thread have that intent behind their posts. there’s been far more provocation and attempted flaming from the meat eating side of the fence in here.