Pentlands – Hillend – interesting times

TJ how about an online questionnaire? (Sponsored by Katec? 😉 )

TBF I’m impressed you made it to the meeting without delays caused by discussions re. inserting grease into cartridge bearings or not 😀

Here is the area, you can see the existing paths. You wouldn’t be able to block an existing RoW, and more importantly a core path goes through the area, which you won’t be able to block.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=edinburgh&hl=en&ll=55.885505,-3.205884&spn=0.006884,0.021136&hnear=Edinburgh,+Midlothian,+United+Kingdom&gl=uk&sqi=2&t=h&z=16

core path plan:
http://www.midlothian.gov.uk/downloads/file/850/map_4_glencorse_reservoir_and_easter_howgate

You can see the boundary on the local plan, though obviously it doesn’t include the posh houses nextdoor. Amusingly its an Area of Great Landscape Value, but if they let the ski centre in there, they can’t be too fussed!
http://www2.midlothian.gov.uk/images/pdfs/MLP%20A701%20North%202008.pdf

Ta Bigjim

cool – the core path is near the eastern boundary of the site so would be no great issues basically the area that is potentially there for usage is the area to the east of the skislope to the defined straight boundary that can be seen ( or up to the core path anyway) Zig zagging back and forward across there to give an average gradient of 10% gives 1 km from the top to the bottom of the chairlift and 1.7 km to the bottom of the access road.

cynic-al – just for once give it a rest please

I think £30 for a day is way too pricey, but seems the same ball park as bike and ski centre uplifts. I cannot see how you can compete with them for vertical drop or variety of terrain/ tracks on the Hillend site though – chop a 1km square from Glentress as an extreme example, e.g. centred on the Buzzard’s nest. Even given this track density, quality, and variety, I’m not sure that enough people would be willing to pay £30 a day to have for uplift to all of these tracks to make a sustainable model – and on that basis the proposal would not make the financial case for investment. That’s all IMO of course.

I’d suggest that a key move would be to get financial figures for the current centre, find out where profit and loss are made in the operation (bearing in mind alternative year-round snowsports options tend to be more limited and less local than biking ones and so you could argue that the a snowsports centre should be more viable than a biking one if operated properly). Certainly it’d give a better idea of what would need to be emphasised in the proposal (ie likely revenue from uplift versus revenue from other sources – hire, food, changing etc… season pass revenue versus day tickets) to enable you to base your argument on solid ground. Info on the 7stanes (for example) visitors and finances should also be publicly available for reference. You also need to know the uplift capacity of the lift, and the capacity that is available to bike(r)s so that you can work within realms of possibility. Also worth knowing is what the authorities would be looking for in order to invest – a profit? a facility that they are prepared to run at cost with no profit?… any wider benefits?… In the current climate it certainly won’t be anything that has to be subsidised.

Given these as a basis, you should be able to put together a better case for the facilities, visitor numbers, structure of organisation and everything else required to make the investment appear worthwhile to backers. Duller than discussing what tracks will go where perhaps, but unless it clears this hurdle then nothing will happen.

[double edit – that might all read very negatively, but it’s not intended to. I really think this should be a facility that a case can be made for and become reality, but it won’t necessarily be easy.]

So the eastern boundary of the park is actually that straight-edged wood? It’s not clear from the high-level photos where the “core path” runs, is the on-the-ground route actually the same as in the map linked? Or is it that more obvious pathline off to the west?

Western boundary of the park is the western edge of the woods to the west?

Yes core path appears to run close the boundary but thats the space available

bajsyckel

This would be being run by the ski centre. we are simply trying to push it forward.; they are interested as an add on to their current business. it would need to be profit generating.

[double edit – that might all read very negatively, but it’s not intended to. I really think this should be a facility that a case can be made for and become reality, but it won’t necessarily be easy.]

Its the sort of view and input we need. the critical thing is would enough people be prepared to pay enough? the view I am getting is the trails would have to be pretty special to do so

Hey Guys

Good effort helping take this forward.

Cannot help on Q’s 1&2

On 3.

I frequently pay £30 for an Innerleithen uplift. That gets me 8 uplifts to ~ 2/3rds of the way up the hill with a push up track for the last 3rd.

It takes all day and you can only sign on for a full day

The draw is simple though. The DH tracks are amongst the best in the UK and therefore it is dificult to commit interest to hillend without knowing the quality of trails.

Assuming they are very good I would have thought £15 to £20 for half a day (4 hours) and £30 for a day (8 hours) unlimited uplifts would be a go-er. Maybe?

Maybe some evening slots in summer £10 for 2 (3) hours.

Maybe a season ticket option for locals?

Tracks need to be good enough for non locals to come though.

Other thing would be a good cafe at the bottom.

So the eastern boundary of the park is actually that straight-edged wood?

Yeah but by the slope changes down towards that line of trees along a crest from the southern point, if that makes any sense at all…

taz – a km with 100 m drop enough? chairlift uplift means little waiting so back to the top again in a few mins.

or nearer 2 km / 170 m drop but minibus / trailer uplift?

TJ – Speak to Graeme on here http://www.dmbins.com/ about this immediately, I am sure he could help with all sorts of support and advice…

It’s not clear from the high-level photos where the “core path” runs, is the on-the-ground route actually the same as in the map linked? Or is it that more obvious pathline off to the west?

Yeah its not the clearest, not as good as the core paths maps I made for CEC 😛 The Core path map should be correct really, for the CEC pentland routes we used a mix of 10k, Mastermap and aerial photography to get them bang on, but I suspect that route is just following whats on the OS 25k map.

I’ve just realised I don’t think I’ve ever ridden that trail that is a core path, past the top of the lifts and down past the T woods!

Matt – there has already been some contact with cycling scotland but done anyway

TJ – Cool. My questions are really – how can it be made profit making? How many uplifts are possible per hour? How many riders can be on the hill at any one time? How many tickets can then be sold? What price do they then need to be? Are ticket sales then viable as a profit generator? Do they also need to make money from hire, from food…? Are the figures coming from this within the realms of possibility? I’d bet they are, but depending on the numbers you may find that the proposal needs to be structured in different ways to be convincing and gather support. I’d also bet that (as in ski centres) revenue from lift tickets is important, but actually other spending may be vital to success unless visitor numbers are exceptional (which may in turn pose problems with capacity). I doubt anyone knows all this stuff definitively off the top of their heads, but it’s all going to have to be pored over at some point to make initial ideas more than speculation.

7 Stanes are a useful source of information as they are relatively local and will have operating costs and spending information etc available to the public. The ski centre itself will publish information about it’s current running costs and income. I agree with you though, regardless of the proposal detail the quality of the design and construction needs to be fantastically good to make it viable.

bajsyckel – Member

TJ – Cool. My questions are really – how can it be made profit making? How many uplifts are possible per hour? How many riders can be on the hill at any one time? How many tickets can then be sold? What price do they then need to be? Are ticket sales then viable as a profit generator? Do they also need to make money from hire, from food…? Are the figures coming from this within the realms of possibility?

Yup – those are indeed the questions 🙂

the other one is the cost of the trails. IIRC £10 – £25 a m is ballpark?

I have to say I think they are up against it.

In one sense ideal location – nice hill close to cycling city with uplift.

But it’s also 30m drive away from 2 of the UK’s best trail centres.

Agree Al-

Two positives – one is the uplift infrastructure is already there and location so close to the city.

Needs a USP and perhaps the two things mentioned are not enough. slopestyle and 4X?

tj…drop me a mail and ill send you some of my contacts…im the chair of the local trails assoc and have looked at a lot of these issues/questions.we raised some money and got ourselves a feasibility study done..

i heard a rumour that the girls from the hub were looking at it also…

chrisatcycle-world.co.uk

i heard a rumour that the girls from the hub were looking at it also…

Me too- as far as I can see tehre is no stand alone business opportunity here tho – only an add on to the existing one

If the chair went to the bottom of the access road then I could see it working. I can’t see it attracting enough punters as it is. Personally I like the trails that are there already. They’d only get trashed or sanitised if this happened.

i’m no dh rider but have ridden cwmdown a few times, among others. drop is 250m over either 1.9 or 1.75km length, apparently. cwmdown info here.
from memory i think it’s ~ 28 quid/day uplift by bus/trailer @ the weekend. cheaper in the week. usually get around 10-12 runs in a day. you can verify what i’ve said from the link provided and watch a vid of what they have if you’ve never been.
maybe a goer for evenings in summer, especially in your neck of the woods, just on the chairlift.
HTH.

First of all, I’d like to say a huge “WELL DONE” to Kaesae and TJ for getting off their arses and actually doing something rather than just spouting forth on a forum.

From the responses on this thread, it seems you’re hitting the wrong demographic. Lots of “well done, good idea, but not for me“. Perhaps have a wee trip up to Bonaly one evening and do some canvassing up there? Given the time and effort put in to the trails up there, you might even get some volunteer labour – and certainly some ideas of what the riders would be looking for.

I was riding the new Grantown trails yesterday. Not what you’re looking for in terms of design, but a great example of managing to squeeze lots into a small space. Might be worth a visit to get some ideas – even talk to some of the folk involved to see what they had to go through?

I wonder, guys, did you get any sense of why the idea had not been taken forward in the past – especially given that the Hub girls had shown interest. It seems they’d be ideally qualified to make a go of this.

However, if you really are thinking that you’ll get some exemption to the LRA to cover this area, then expect me to be one of the complaining NIMBYs. I wonder if there’s a business case would stack up if you can’t charge for use of the hill?

I had thought of the bonally folk for sure.

With regards to the hub girls I expect they would want a stand alone business and I cannot believe that would work but as a part of the existing business it might just fly.

LRA – do you think using the ski trails for free if you walked up would be OK? 🙂 I only mentioned that as an aside. Its a public park so a complex legal situation I guess. I suppose yo simply pay for the uplift not for the use of the trails. It would be ruddy steep to ride up to the top

LRA – do you think using the ski trails for free if you walked up would be OK? I only mentioned that as an aside. Its a public park so a complex legal situation I guess. I suppose yo simply pay for the uplift not for the use of the trails.

How would you keep folk out?
In terms of the ski slope, how does it currently work? Do you need to pay to use it?
What if there’s snow on the ground – can you walk up and ski down without paying?
The ski centre/area pre-dates the LRA, so they are automatically exempt ( a bit like Gosforth House – remember?). Obtaining a similar exemption for a DH area might be tricky and I, for one, would argue against it.

It would be ruddy steep to ride up to the top I think that would have to be the case.

Folk push up to the top of Inners….

I don’t think it would make a profit, however I’m not sure it would be required to: All council sport facilities expect to lose money (just like buses and libraries). What Hillend is expecting to achieve with this is to help pay wages for staff who have to be insitu at the ski centre, even when almost no one is using the slopes.
What is more of a problem for the Hillend centre, I would imagine,would be the captital outlay for the mtb project. If money is being spent on the ski centre then maybe there’s enough left for the mtb trails.
I for one would use it probably a dozen times a year and would pay upto £15 for as long as I want per use.

How would you keep folk out?

wolves. wolves with shotguns. 🙂

good point raised – as I say I guess it becomes payment for uplift not trail riding and there would be no way to keep folk out if they really wanted to. I have not heard of anyone getting or attempting to get an exception for this sort of thing altho in theory it is possible.

i doubt it would be critical to the sucess of the project it would rely on attacting people to do multiple runs without the pain of the push up. Need to get the pricing right

– there is no easy / obvious riding path to the top but there is a core path that runs to the top

i doubt it would be critical to the sucess of the project it would rely on attacting people to do multiple runs without the pain of the push up. Need to get the pricing right

The other benefit would be more users of the cafe. Given they already have to open/the/staff the place, that could be a lot of up-side.

What about bike hire? That might make a bit extra (though you then need to employ a mechanic).

In some ways, it’s a pity Hillend is where it is. If there was better access to the rest of the Pentland path network, general (XC) bike hire might be possible and we could actually have a proper bike “hub” for the Pentlands. Hillend – Swanston- Bonaly and back would soon get a bit old 🙂

TJ It might also be worth talking to the guys that do Carberry DH trails , they have managed to squeeze at least 3 dufferent runs into an are half the size and height of Hillend. Maybe post something up on descent world or UK mtb.

TJ, from memory the old chairlifted DH tracks (2) at Hillend were around 1.04 long, although DH tracks that short have been raced successfully there are 45sec 4X tracks.
have always thought hillend would be the perfect location for an all weather long 4X style track. built/designed right it could still be fun for beginners right upto WCers.
Scotland doesn’t have a single decent 4X track (Ft Bill is absolutely shit when it’s not been groomed for the WC race.)

none of what Carberry or Bonally’s builders have done would cope with the traffic.
do it properly or don’t bother at all

druidh – from swanston you can get to the howden burn climb

Stanfree is descent world a good place for DH knowledge? its really a long way from my experience

I should get hold of GW as well for a frank opinion I guess 🙂

Edit Mention his name and he pops up 🙂

DW forum died a death years ago.
SDH is the busy one now, still not great tho.

TJ – I’d rather discuss it over a pint/ride sometime than here TBH.

So 4X would have more potential for racing you think? Would a decent 4X course meant for racing also be good for everyday use? pardon my ignorance but is that of similar difficutly to spooky woods?

this would need the potential to progress – Ie easier adn harder lines / runs so as to attract as many folk as possible – but not XC obviously

do it properly or don’t bother at all

does that mean armoured built trails like GT type ones or is mud / earth a part of it?

Edit – saw your post – I’ll try to catch up then GW

the other one is the cost of the trails. IIRC £10 – £25 a m is ballpark?

That sounds like the sort of price that Pete Laing mentioned to me a few years ago. I think it was about £16/metre for Kirroughtree, though I think others have mentioned since then that you pay extra on top of that if you’re building features out of stone and the like.

I’ve been told before what sort of gradients are considered sustainable for the XC trails at Glentress and Innerleithen and while I recall that it’s shockingly low I can’t remember the actual number. Next time I go to Trailfairies I’ll ask the ranger and also see if he knows what the average gradient for Innerleithen’s DH trails is.

TJ, this isn’t going to distract you from sorting out some more Pentlands trailbuilding sessions this year, is it? 🙂

ok, i like this idea. i’m no downhiller (not anymore, leastways), more into longer XC stuff, but i like the sound of this. to start – i’ve never paid for uplift in scotland, but the one i would like to try out is fort bill – not keen on £32 to ride in a coach with a suicidal driver for only 8 runs. but chairlift/tow seems better, as there’s no need to wait for the coach/tractor to be full.

also, i know there some big differences, but i loved riding around morzine using the lifts. the last time i went i was pretty XC but had trouble convincing myself to ride up!

anyway, here’s a list of things that occur to me:

1- i think there could well be an issue with the NIMBYs – there was hotel complex proposed there a year or two ago and it never got the go ahead, despite the likelihood that it’d be built right infront of that artificial white streak that is the ski slope.

2- jimmy mentioned sheffield ski slope, and i seem to recall seeing a video from a few months ago of steve peat riding a dh trail was served by the tow – so this should probably be looked into.

3- the problem of subsidy that bajsyckel mentioned is valid – IIRC the slope was nearly closed about a year ago as midlothian/edinbuirgh council wanted to pull funding.

4- it definitely needs input from bonaly builders, as druidh says

5- innerleithen – how much work goes into those DH tracks? i rode an XC time-trial a couple of years ago there and some of the trails were brand new without any prep being done – just tape marking the route. seems that some of these tracks are still used. would building a track with minimal ‘foundation’ work and holding a race be feasible? this may bring in lots of interest and therefore money which can then be used as justification of building more ‘solid’ tracks.

6- CONVERSELY!! there’re people new to the sport who may like a solid, trainer track, that gives thrills without all the hard work of toiling uphill. i suspect my girlfriend might appreciate a venue where she could hone her skills without have to be pretty ‘bike-fit’ from the get-go.

7- pentland hills regional park is one step down from national parks – and has a remit to promote leisure pursuits while ensuring it is still a ‘working’ landscape. can this fit proposal with that? or does hillend’s status as a country park trump this?

phew, that’s it from me! i’d love to be able to help more with this – just ask if you need.

TJ, this isn’t going to distract you from sorting out some more Pentlands trailbuilding sessions this year, is it?

No
Teh rangers are doing some reorganistion – I have reminded hem but still not got dates sorted

regarding gradients – IMBA has recommended values (for trails at least). one of the stanes (kirroughtree maybe?) has a flatter grade, but gets round it by going undulating up and and down the slope to get it to the IMBA recommended (iirc).

MrK mkII – one of the advantages of it being within the confines of the Country Park is that the land isn’t otherwise used – e.g. for grazing, hence less potential conflict.

The original Hillend DH tracks weren’t “built/armoured” in any way and hence were crap. I suspect the option of just marking a line and letting folk ride it wouldn’t be good enough and that significant trail building would be necessary.

The actually fall line is 1:4 if you go straight down the hill. to get 1:10 you need to zigzag around

My view is it needs to be built / armoured trails